621 replies to this topic

[jjf3]

Day of Action: Disruptive, Pointless, or a Revolution?

A crowd of several hundred protesters marched from Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan to the New York Stock Exchange a few blocks away on Thursday as Occupy Wall Street demonstrators across the country promised mass gatherings to mark the movement's two-month anniversary.

The demonstrators chanted "Shut down wall street!' and carried signs, such as "Tax Wall Street" and "Why Wait for Permission to Claim Freedom? Occupy Your Mind."

http://www.usatoday....sary/51263656/1

Do these people know what would happen to the world if Wall Street is shut down for a day???

[mic of orion]

^^

nothing, few billionaires would lose few bobs and everyone would be happy for it, you do know there's no trading on weekends and world is still around come Monday.

but than again you hate anything progressive, democratic or someone who questions status quo or god forbid a federal state.

I do wonder what University you are going to, and what are you reading, clearly your university education didn't do you any good, actually did quite the opposite.

Most who finish university education here in UK and Europe, tend to question authority, status quo, it seems in America everyone is afraid of questioning authority or even being different.

[jjf3]

Why would I want to change the status quo or change the system? I am doing perfectly fine with it. I would rather graduate college and get a job doing something I like which happens to be computers. I am perfectly content within the system. I use the system to work to my advantage. The system won't change. Too many people like it! As some say, it works. Nobody ever said it had to be fair, but everyone does get an equal chance to succeed here.

I saw the impracticalities of this movement from the very beginning. They refused to get leadership, they refused to draw up coherent things that they wanted specifically to change etc... Same with the tea party I saw the impracticalities of that movement right from the beginning, same with PETA or any other activist groups. etc... Hopefully now they will begin to organize and get some political support going so they don't have to interfere with the lives of everyday people.

So Facebook Google Apple? Are all afraid to think differently? Ok. I don't understand your thinking here. I wouldn't expect someone who never lived in America to understand our culture. OWS started in here. The European protests were even worse and messier. They had no coherent anything, just teenagers bored breaking stuff. America is the most innovative country on the planet. We changed the world when we rebelled from the UK. I don't think any country anywhere has had made such a dent in history. We walked on the moon in 1969 with limited technology! No other country can claim that.

It only takes a few more shakes for the economy to totally collapse. You may not think that the Billionaires losing millions of dollars is all that important but it is! Those billionaires who pump money into stocks do so for a reason. If they are not allowed to do their jobs, and yes it is a job, then companies will start to loose money. Investors would move their money out of companies. Stocks will tumble (if reopened) and production will stop! It's called a Stock Market Panic. We are already in a depression do you really want things to get worse because a bunch of people want to interfere with daily business operations of America?

The day of action, was nothing but a media keyword. They know that the Occupy Movement is dying fast. They know that the media is killing their coverage. They knew they had to do something drastic, a last ditch effort to draw people to their cause, when thousands have already left it and gone home. If I didn't like the future, I wouldn't be on this site. But OWS doesn't represent me, and it isn't a very clear version of the future. It's not that I don't like progressive things. I was brought up to think about things practically. It takes effort, planning, testing, and analysis to turn a good idea into a practical use for society, and of course it's got to make profit, otherwise it won't last long! That's what you learn in business school! For your information...

I am surprised that OWS lasted as long as it did. It can go down as the longest running protest in history. But it will be remembered as a giant protest with no clear agenda. http://www.businessw...r_2_months.html


So now, you admit that OWS is left wing "progressive movement" interesting...

[Roh234]

^Then he will admit its an anti-capitalistic movement.

but than again you hate anything progressive, democratic or someone who questions status quo or god forbid a federal state.

I do wonder what University you are going to, and what are you reading, clearly your university education didn't do you any good, actually did quite the opposite.

Most who finish university education here in UK and Europe, tend to question authority, status quo, it seems in America everyone is afraid of questioning authority or even being different.

Lol he also admits that Universities should make you a liberal and not question global warming and leftist policies and question a system that works and right wing policies.Perfect, I never found a cliche version of a Liberal in all my travels.

[Wesfky]

Why would I want to change the status quo or change the system? I am doing perfectly fine with it. I would rather graduate college and get a job doing something I like which happens to be computers. I am perfectly content within the system. I use the system to work to my advantage. The system won't change. Too many people like it! As some say, it works. Nobody ever said it had to be fair, but everyone does get an equal chance to succeed here.

I saw the impracticalities of this movement from the very beginning. They refused to get leadership, they refused to draw up coherent things that they wanted specifically to change etc... Same with the tea party I saw the impracticalities of that movement right from the beginning, same with PETA or any other activist groups. etc... Hopefully now they will begin to organize and get some political support going so they don't have to interfere with the lives of everyday people.

So Facebook Google Apple? Are all afraid to think differently? Ok. I don't understand your thinking here. I wouldn't expect someone who never lived in America to understand our culture. OWS started in here. The European protests were even worse and messier. They had no coherent anything, just teenagers bored breaking stuff. America is the most innovative country on the planet. We changed the world when we rebelled from the UK. I don't think any country anywhere has had made such a dent in history. We walked on the moon in 1969 with limited technology! No other country can claim that.

It only takes a few more shakes for the economy to totally collapse. You may not think that the Billionaires losing millions of dollars is all that important but it is! Those billionaires who pump money into stocks do so for a reason. If they are not allowed to do their jobs, and yes it is a job, then companies will start to loose money. Investors would move their money out of companies. Stocks will tumble (if reopened) and production will stop! It's called a Stock Market Panic. We are already in a depression do you really want things to get worse because a bunch of people want to interfere with daily business operations of America?

The day of action, was nothing but a media keyword. They know that the Occupy Movement is dying fast. They know that the media is killing their coverage. They knew they had to do something drastic, a last ditch effort to draw people to their cause, when thousands have already left it and gone home. If I didn't like the future, I wouldn't be on this site. But OWS doesn't represent me, and it isn't a very clear version of the future. It's not that I don't like progressive things. I was brought up to think about things practically. It takes effort, planning, testing, and analysis to turn a good idea into a practical use for society, and of course it's got to make profit, otherwise it won't last long! That's what you learn in business school! For your information...

I am surprised that OWS lasted as long as it did. It can go down as the longest running protest in history. But it will be remembered as a giant protest with no clear agenda.

National economic injustice.

[Wesfky]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

"And then America came and saved your asses. " -- jjf3

[Wesfky]

I am perfectly content within the system. I use the system to work to my advantage. The system won't change. Too many people like it! As some say, it works. Nobody ever said it had to be fair, but everyone does get an equal chance to succeed here.

I do admit i am fortunate to grow up in such a great environment with great opportunities but thats what my parents planned for me! They were poor and became successful in life. I just wish half the people at OWS would just get up and try!

Ahh, using the argument, 'my parents started off poor, so that justifies why I get to start life off in a great environment with great opportunities'.

>Implying everyone has awesome parents, meaning everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

<insert comment about orphans here>

[jjf3]

Here's another question for you, "What's wrong with success?"

Why are successful people always attacked nowadays? My parents work very hard for their money, they analyze every payment plan, every bill, every business deal they have to make. When they were poor, they laid out their financial situation worked three jobs and eventually became successful. But, that's something a communist like yourself wouldn't understand. It is possible to move up in the ranks in this day and age. Many people do it.That is the American Dream. Become financially comfortable, save up money to send kids to college. So they can become successful and have more opportunities for themselves than they had when growing up!!!


I think that type of planning has been lost in america along the way. Because people are starting to think that they need to be entitled to everything. No you have to work at it first!

Oh and you don't need "awesome" parents to be be successful. My parents aren't great. They're not millionaires either. They just know how money works from life experience. They didn't get to go to a business school, and now it's up to me to make my life a success! The cycle continues. That's called choice and personal responsibility. Another concept Communists don't understand.

[truthiness]

I think the difference here between capitalist values and socialist values is this... A capitalist believes in working hard and achieving success so that his children will have to work less hard to achieve the same level of success (meanwhile, somewhere, some children will have to work harder than they otherwise ought to, but they have the opportunity to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, so it's ok). A socialist believes that all children should have an equal chance to achieve success, and that no child should be advantaged just because his parents worked harder.

The capitalist and the socialist both believe that hard work should be rewarded, but while the capitalist believes that those rewards should be multi-generational (incidentally condemning the next generation of the "less productive" workers), the socialist believes those rewards should go solely to the worker himself. You can become quite rich in a socialist economy, but your great-grandkids won't inherit the mansions. It will be up to them to compete with every other great-grandkid out there when the time comes.

Capitalists love competition, as long as the deck is stacked in their favor to begin with.

[jjf3]

No, you've got it wrong. You see in the socialist society, there is no market. No market means no competition. No competition means no success, and no success equals horrid productivity. Some people do enjoy working, and would do it with or without a paycheck because its what they love to do! They are enticed to do an even better job because of their own individual success and contributions to the company, or the people they work for and they are rewarded with cash bonuses or a promotion.

How would this work in socialism? It wouldn't! Nobody would be rewarded for their hard work. Nobody would get bonuses. Nobody would get to move up in the ranks, unless the government felt the need to shuffle jobs around. Everyone would be miserable automatons until we could be replaced by machines.

So the government, elites and 1% get to have all of your hard earnings after your dead? That's so much better than giving it to your kids!

Edited by jjf3, 18 November 2011 - 10:23 PM.

[truthiness]

Lol... no markets in a socialist society... ah... that's good stuff. What those of us on the left are calling for is far from classless communism. What we're talking about is social democracy - the creation of welfare states in the interest of creating greater income equality and a chance for everyone (here in the first world, anyway) to lead a decent life. This may be a step toward full-blown communism, but it in no way implies that every next step will or should be taken down that road. We're not after your markets. We want the markets to be accountable for the damage that they cause, but most of us aren't out to take down capitalism entirely. We just want to see that some of those billions of dollars in the pockets of CEOs find their way back to the hands of the people who got them there.

Besides, if there were no markets and no success, how would there be elites or a 1%? If the government keeps all of my hard earnings after I'm dead, and if I'm confident that the government will take care of my kids to the same degree that I was taken care of, then I say great! That's one less thing to worry about. We shouldn't be worrying about how our kids will survive when we die. Life is burdensome enough as it is.

It'd be impossible to maintain a system where everyone's wages were equal whether or not they worked. A socialist (social democratic) economy is still an economy where some people make more money than others, but there are higher overall taxes, and high estate taxes so that everyone has a reliable safety net beneath them. There won't be miserable automatons, and when we're replaced by machines it won't be as catastrophic as it will be when we're replaced by machines under the current system. Under our current system, you'll just get a pink slip and you'll lose your health insurance and you'll have to start drawing on your retirement once unemployment runs out in a few months until that too is exhausted. Then it's the street.

[jjf3]

Socialism is: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole, (not just taxes). That's dictionary.com's definition of socialism. What you are talking about is basically Obama's plan and what Fox News calls socialism.

I thought you were the one who was bashing me earlier about US already being a social democracy. Health Care, Education, Social Security, taxes, those are all socialist ideas. We are already in a mixed economy.

What you are talking about is legal theft. It's the whole reason America was founded! You shouldn't worry about the well being of your kids? Have you ever heard of orphans? Government takes away your kids when you die or are an "unfit" parent. And if you didn't have a plan for where they would live or if you have no family. As a parent you need to train your kids for the real world. You need to teach them and prepare them. That's what good parents do no matter where they are in society. No, I would question what the government will do with my kids when I die under your ideal government.

If there was no markets how could the government even order the rich elite (Who are also part of the government) of today to give up all their belongings when it was them who set up the "new" system?

Why would we need to produce luxury cars, when ford torus' run just as good if not better? Why would we need different houses? Why would we need different fashion? why would we need different food when you can just eat salad and vitamins and some futuristic tablet or one meal that the government says? But still everything and everyone will be equal and that's all everyone wants in life. No people are competitive too! We are born that way. It's a scientific process to want to compete and be more successful. Better house, better car, better friends, hotter wife, better life!

Do you understand what I am getting at? This type of government can't exist, because it's too big. Life won't be stressful under this type of government because government will tell you what to do.

Edited by jjf3, 19 November 2011 - 12:57 AM.

[truthiness]

Alright then... just to clear up definitions... while I identify myself as a socialist, what I'm advocating here is not true socialism or communism, but rather social democracy - as you say, a mixed economy. My position is that it isn't "mixed" enough. The richest 1% of us shouldn't be earning 35% the income. That's not to say that they should be earning 1%, but I think a whole lot of us would find that we're a lot better off if they made perhaps 10% (which they did when the illustrious Ronald Reagan was elected in 1979). You know, I think they'd find a way to survive even under such dire conditions.

Taxes aren't legal theft. They are (theoretically, anyway) the democratically determined amount due for the privilege of living in our society. Even if you don't actually use everything that society offers, such as food stamps or public schools, you still pay taxes because they are available to you, and the majority of us decided we'd like to have these types of programs. If you don't have access to public schools or food stamps for some reason (denied due to the color of your skin or the district in which you live, for instance), then you might have a legitimate reason to question whether or not you should be paying taxes. If you don't like progressive taxes, then you're well within your rights to advocate changing the system, or you can always leave.

[jjf3]

Taxes aren't legal theft. They are (theoretically, anyway) the democratically determined amount due for the privilege of living in our society. Even if you don't actually use everything that society offers, such as food stamps or public schools, you still pay taxes because they are available to you, and the majority of us decided we'd like to have these types of programs. If you don't have access to public schools or food stamps for some reason (denied due to the color of your skin or the district in which you live, for instance), then you might have a legitimate reason to question whether or not you should be paying taxes. If you don't like progressive taxes, then you're well within your rights to advocate changing the system, or you can always leave.

Sounds like a perfect description of a socialist idea. You even said progressive in your explanation. I never said I didn't like paying taxing or didn't like socialism. I just don't like gigantic huge socialism. Because yes, that forces people into not wanting to become successful.

My family's business is hurting because of Obama's tax system. We own a pretty secure chain of auto shops. People aren't going out and buying new cars, they are fixing old run down ones. It's a recession proof business, if the government would just let us make more than $250,000 in profit without being taxed to death. We are not a giant business. My dad is afraid to allow new business because then we will have to pay more taxes which a family of five with two kids in college cannot aford! You see, if it was just my dad being affected, then I would welcome your idea. But these ideas are affecting my family, me, and ultimately my future. I don't know if my family would be able to afford to send me to college under this administration, if it wasn't for savings bonds they planned to save for me

[Wesfky]

I fully agree with you jjf3, education is a human right, and so should be free.

[Wesfky]

Taxes aren't legal theft. They are (theoretically, anyway) the democratically determined amount due for the privilege of living in our society. Even if you don't actually use everything that society offers, such as food stamps or public schools, you still pay taxes because they are available to you, and the majority of us decided we'd like to have these types of programs. If you don't have access to public schools or food stamps for some reason (denied due to the color of your skin or the district in which you live, for instance), then you might have a legitimate reason to question whether or not you should be paying taxes. If you don't like progressive taxes, then you're well within your rights to advocate changing the system, or you can always leave.

Sounds like a perfect description of a socialist idea. You even said progressive in your explanation. I never said I didn't like paying taxing or didn't like socialism. I just don't like gigantic huge socialism. Because yes, that forces people into not wanting to become successful.

My family's business is hurting because of Obama's tax system. We own a pretty secure chain of auto shops. People aren't going out and buying new cars, they are fixing old run down ones. It's a recession proof business, if the government would just let us make more than $250,000 in profit without being taxed to death. We are not a giant business. My dad is afraid to allow new business because then we will have to pay more taxes which a family of five with two kids in college cannot aford! You see, if it was just my dad being affected, then I would welcome your idea. But these ideas are affecting my family, me, and ultimately my future. I don't know if my family would be able to afford to send me to college under this administration, if it wasn't for savings bonds they planned to save for me

TL;DR If my parents earn more then $250 000 dollars profit, they wont be able to afford to send me to college.

Edited by Wesfky, 19 November 2011 - 05:45 AM.

[jjf3]

I wouldn't expect a communist like yourself to understand how raising a family and running a business works!! why not read it first instead of re-quoting things I've said. Come back when you have something constructive to debate with and I'll gladly prove you wrong with more facts.

Edited by jjf3, 19 November 2011 - 06:10 AM.

[Wesfky]

I wouldn't expect a communist like yourself to understand how raising a family and running a business works!! why not read it first instead of re-quoting things I've said. Come back when you have something constructive to debate with and I'll gladly prove you wrong with more facts.

Nah, I'm happy with pointing out the contradictions you make in each of your posts.

[jjf3]

It's not a contradiction, you didn't read my entire post! You don't even try to understand my point. Is it so hard to understand why a family of five people with a middle class business in this economy can barely pass by? That frustration is where OWS grew out of. Even people who have the means to become successful cannot. And partially it's because of taxes!

[Wesfky]

I understood it enough to summarise it perfectly.

I mainly liked the part where you said, "my parents wont be able to afford to send me to college".

And probably throughout this whole thread you have said stuff along the lines,
OWS protests are just lazy, all they want is free handouts. I don't take free hand outs, I have worked all through college (even though you just said that they pay for it) and my parents started out poor.

e. spelling

Edited by Wesfky, 19 November 2011 - 08:08 AM.