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Will the world be forced to abandon capitalism in the next 20 years?


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#41
caltrek

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The meaning of life derives from meaningful work, which is best done in a capitalist economy.

 

 

Very problematic statement.

 

 

For work is the way to prove that you deserve to exist

 

Perhaps in a capitalistic system, in which case we are engaging in circular logic.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#42
Jakob

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The meaning of life derives from meaningful work, which is best done in a capitalist economy.

 

 

Very problematic statement.

Care to elaborate?


 

For work is the way to prove that you deserve to exist

 

Perhaps in a capitalistic system, in which case we are engaging in circular logic.

 

Right, because life can only have meaning in a capitalistic system.



#43
TranscendingGod

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Actually I would do something. I would argue that most people aren't lazy bums. Especially if it is to maintain a functioning society I do not mind working to support my fellow man. People deserve to exist whether they want to work or not. I should not be a slave to someone who measures my worth in paper. We are worth more than that and no human should depend on another for subsistence. If you don't want to work and you don't have to then more power to you. Like jacque fresco with his Venus project where only 3% of the population work to let the other 97% subsist I can assure you that more than 3% would volunteer to work so that the other 97% can live as they please.
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The growth of computation is doubly exponential growth. 


#44
Jakob

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Actually I would do something. I would argue that most people aren't lazy bums.

You can say what you like now, but deep down, everyone is in it for him or herself.

 

 

Especially if it is to maintain a functioning society I do not mind working to support my fellow man.

Weren't you the guy who wanted to sue the government because they aren't taking other peoples' money and giving it to you?

 

 People deserve to exist whether they want to work or not.

They certainly do not. Where would such a right come from, if not through proving one's value to society?

 

 no human should depend on another for subsistence.

That's exactly what a basic income is: depending on others for subsistence.

 

 

If you don't want to work and you don't have to then more power to you.

Let's say that I refuse to take something for nothing, and I refuse to give something if I get nothing in return. What then?

 

 

Like jacque fresco with his Venus project where only 3% of the population work to let the other 97% subsist I can assure you that more than 3% would volunteer to work so that the other 97% can live as they please.

Sounds like a crushingly awful dystopia.



#45
TranscendingGod

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Jakob if you're gonna take what I say out of context then there is truly no use trying to explain an alternative. Your staunch and calloused views are obviously very much ingrained into who you are. All I can say is that I will not change you but the world waits for no one.

The growth of computation is doubly exponential growth. 


#46
caltrek

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Right, because life can only have meaning in a capitalistic system.

 

 

 

This is the nature of the circular reasoning: 

 

  1. Capitalism is the best system. Why?
  2. Because under no other system can one find meaning. Why?
  3. Because capitalism is the best system.

One can easily substitute the word "socialism" for "capitalism" and come to the same conclusion for socialism


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The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#47
Jakob

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Right, because life can only have meaning in a capitalistic system.

 

 

 

This is the nature of the circular reasoning: 

 

  1. Capitalism is the best system. Why?
  2. Because under no other system can one find meaning. Why?
  3. Because capitalism is the best system.

On can easily substitute the word "socialism" for "capitalism" and come to the same conclusion for socialism

 

Capitalism works with the parameters set out by human nature. Socialism, on the other hand, runs contrary to human nature. Which, I suspect, is why all communist states to date have either failed or gone capitalist.



#48
caltrek

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^^^The AI you describe would be in the position of a socialistic planner, not a capitalist.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#49
caltrek

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Right, because life can only have meaning in a capitalistic system.

 

 

 

This is the nature of the circular reasoning: 

 

  1. Capitalism is the best system. Why?
  2. Because under no other system can one find meaning. Why?
  3. Because capitalism is the best system.

On can easily substitute the word "socialism" for "capitalism" and come to the same conclusion for socialism

 

Capitalism works with the parameters set out by human nature. Socialism, on the other hand, runs contrary to human nature. Which, I suspect, is why all communist states to date have either failed or gone capitalist.

 

You are mistaking Socialism for Communism.  Socialism is alive and well, thank you very much.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#50
Jakob

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Right, because life can only have meaning in a capitalistic system.

 

 

 

This is the nature of the circular reasoning: 

 

  1. Capitalism is the best system. Why?
  2. Because under no other system can one find meaning. Why?
  3. Because capitalism is the best system.

On can easily substitute the word "socialism" for "capitalism" and come to the same conclusion for socialism

 

Capitalism works with the parameters set out by human nature. Socialism, on the other hand, runs contrary to human nature. Which, I suspect, is why all communist states to date have either failed or gone capitalist.

 

You are mistaking Socialism for Communism.  Socialism is alive and well, thank you very much.

 

Socialism is also contrary to human nature, and can only succeed if the population is either oppressed or brainwashed.



#51
caltrek

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Socialism Capitalism is also contrary to human nature, and can only succeed if the population is either oppressed or brainwashed.

There, fixed it.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#52
Jakob

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Socialism Capitalism is also contrary to human nature, and can only succeed if the population is either oppressed or brainwashed.

There, fixed it.

It was right before...and where's the oppression and brainwashing? I don't see much, if any in the US.



#53
caltrek

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^^^What do you think your watching in between the entertainment sections of TV programs.  They are called commercials..

 

Or the pop up ads when you try to get on the internet?

 

Or the radio commercials?

 

Newspaper and magazine adversiting?

 

Then there are the lame stream news media commentators..  Capitalist society's are full of this massive brainwashing - all trying to sell capitalism in its grossly consumerist form, or trying to spin the news in accordance with the voices they hear from thier masters.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#54
Outlook

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Being asked to buy something is now considered brainwashing. That damn street grocer, I should have him beaten up for asking me to buy his fruit. My friend too, he asked me to buy a chocolate bar at the corner store, little did I know he was brainwashing me and now I need to kill him. Damn Capitalism. You have to watch out for brainwashers everywhere.


The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

#55
Whereas

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Really? You think ANYONE would do ANYTHING if they didn't have to? Only a handful of people would, and even they would not be nearly as productive as if they had to. People will just think, "I'll sit in bed and play video games all day long, but that's okay, because someone else will do the hard work." Problem is, everybody will think that. Tragedy of the commons.

 

You can say what you like now, but deep down, everyone is in it for him or herself.

Jakob, Jakob... you're projecting (and honestly, knowing that draws us a somewhat disturbing picture of you). You need to look beyond the idea of mentally modelling other people based on yourself.

 

Let's talk established psychology instead. There's external motivation and then there's internal motivation. Studies have proven that people can be motivated to do work for free even when they can't be motivated to do that very same work for less money than they feel the work is worth. You don't realize that your view of human psychology utterly fails at explaining why Wikipedia exists? Studies have also proven that external motivation hampers performance in creative tasks - in other words: if you're working on a task that requires you to be creative, you'll do a comparatively *worse* job if you're getting payed for it. This is a strong argument against capitalism in the future, since it is limiting our potential for creativity.

 

Being asked to buy something is now considered brainwashing. That damn street grocer, I should have him beaten up for asking me to buy his fruit. My friend too, he asked me to buy a chocolate bar at the corner store, little did I know he was brainwashing me and now I need to kill him. Damn Capitalism. You have to watch out for brainwashers everywhere.

Ever bought an iPhone? A good percentage of what you're paying for in that price are the commercials for it.


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If you're wrong, how would you know it?


#56
Outlook

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Ever bought an iPhone? A good percentage of what you're paying for in that price are the commercials for it.

 

This needs a citation, and strays from the main point which is how commercialism is a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing in this context is changing the beliefs of somebody for bad intentions, whether through false persuasion or force. What you can sell is regulated, and false advertisement is also regulated. Also, in the free world, you're allowed to criticize products, which is an influential part on how far products sell for.  Also, believe it or not, most people have critical thinking skills on what they buy, who they vote for, and what they believe in. Which is another great thing in the free world. You can do research on the product you buy, instead of being in an environment where they force an uncontested belief down your throat.


The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

#57
Whereas

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Ever bought an iPhone? A good percentage of what you're paying for in that price are the commercials for it.

 

This needs a citation, and strays from the main point which is how commercialism is a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing in this context is changing the beliefs of somebody for bad intentions, whether through false persuasion or force. What you can sell is regulated, and false advertisement is also regulated. Also, in the free world, you're allowed to criticize products, which is an influential part on how far products sell for.  Also, believe it or not, most people have critical thinking skills on what they buy, who they vote for, and what they believe in. Which is another great thing in the free world. You can do research on the product you buy, instead of being in an environment where they force an uncontested belief down your throat.

 

Here you go:
http://www.investope...-an-iphone.aspx

And it's brainwashing in the sense that it makes people buy things that they'd be better off not buying. Yes, people *don't* always know what's best for them, and commercials exploit that for as much money they can possibly wring out of people. Nowadays it's hard to find a commercial that *isn't* primarily an appeal to emotions, which are the irrational part of us we base our decisions on. Capitalism is all about efficiency in producing $$$ for its stated class of beneficiaries, which is why it isn't surprising that commercials became the way they are now, with the end result of inflating the human environmental footprint far beyond where it needs to be for the same level of comfort we're enjoying today.


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If you're wrong, how would you know it?


#58
Zeitgeist123

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Really? You think ANYONE would do ANYTHING if they didn't have to? Only a handful of people would, and even they would not be nearly as productive as if they had to. People will just think, "I'll sit in bed and play video games all day long, but that's okay, because someone else will do the hard work." Problem is, everybody will think that. Tragedy of the commons.

 

The meaning of life derives from meaningful work, which is best done in a capitalist economy. For work is the way to prove that you deserve to exist. If you are valuable enough that someone pays you enough to earn a living, you deserve to live.

 

Our current system is not perfect. But it needs to be improved upon, not scrapped for a "welfare capitalist"/communist dystopia.

 

not exactly. we dont need majority of people to do the hard work to innovate in the face of automation. we only need a handful of passionate people, probably even less than 1% of the world's population to keep the world innovated in the presence of automation. remember that the renaissance period is not really what we think of as a wave of zeitgeist coming on to the whole society. the renaissance period was pivotal in the history of social innovation, but it was only accessible to the elites. in reality 90% of the population during the renaissance period in western europe were still living in the medieval age. historians just labeled it as the renaissance period because of its great accomplishment/innovation in different fields of sciences and art. 


“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#59
Jakob

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Really? You think ANYONE would do ANYTHING if they didn't have to? Only a handful of people would, and even they would not be nearly as productive as if they had to. People will just think, "I'll sit in bed and play video games all day long, but that's okay, because someone else will do the hard work." Problem is, everybody will think that. Tragedy of the commons.

 

The meaning of life derives from meaningful work, which is best done in a capitalist economy. For work is the way to prove that you deserve to exist. If you are valuable enough that someone pays you enough to earn a living, you deserve to live.

 

Our current system is not perfect. But it needs to be improved upon, not scrapped for a "welfare capitalist"/communist dystopia.

 

not exactly. we dont need majority of people to do the hard work to innovate in the face of automation. we only need a handful of passionate people, probably even less than 1% of the world's population to keep the world innovated in the presence of automation. remember that the renaissance period is not really what we think of as a wave of zeitgeist coming on to the whole society. the renaissance period was pivotal in the history of social innovation, but it was only accessible to the elites. in reality 90% of the population during the renaissance period were still living in the medieval age.

 

Which do you think will lead to more innovation: 1% of the population innovating, or 80-90%? (I'm imagining there will still be entertainers, businesspeople, and politicians, hence not 100%)



#60
Zeitgeist123

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Really? You think ANYONE would do ANYTHING if they didn't have to? Only a handful of people would, and even they would not be nearly as productive as if they had to. People will just think, "I'll sit in bed and play video games all day long, but that's okay, because someone else will do the hard work." Problem is, everybody will think that. Tragedy of the commons.

 

The meaning of life derives from meaningful work, which is best done in a capitalist economy. For work is the way to prove that you deserve to exist. If you are valuable enough that someone pays you enough to earn a living, you deserve to live.

 

Our current system is not perfect. But it needs to be improved upon, not scrapped for a "welfare capitalist"/communist dystopia.

 

not exactly. we dont need majority of people to do the hard work to innovate in the face of automation. we only need a handful of passionate people, probably even less than 1% of the world's population to keep the world innovated in the presence of automation. remember that the renaissance period is not really what we think of as a wave of zeitgeist coming on to the whole society. the renaissance period was pivotal in the history of social innovation, but it was only accessible to the elites. in reality 90% of the population during the renaissance period were still living in the medieval age.

 

Which do you think will lead to more innovation: 1% of the population innovating, or 80-90%? (I'm imagining there will still be entertainers, businesspeople, and politicians, hence not 100%)

 

 

it would not matter in the presence of high automation. it is not how much people are working on a certain project, it is about how efficient it can take to accomplish it. 


“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates





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