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Refugee & Migrant Crisis


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#41
PhoenixRu

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Riss is basically saying: Really? All refugees are bad? Even that innocent little boy?"

 

Oh please, mr.Riss, spare us from these primitive manipulations...

 

 

It’s a criticism of bigots — like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. — who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because they’re rapists or terrorists.

 

I'm also one of them (bigots) since i think one million of foreigners (mainly young men, not villing and unable to assimilate) per year is not a good thing for Germany... actually, this is rather a national catastrophe. And the only real way to avoid the further troubles is close borders until it is too late.

 

PS about caricatures. Just for lulz:

 

CY0hEA8UoAIAERS.jpg


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#42
Futurist

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Despite the common sense that letting men from an ACTUAL rape-positive patriarchy

 

The middle east's rape rates are lower than Europeans rape rates. Even Israeli. Marital rape however is a different story.

 

%28A%29_Rape_rates_per_100000_population

 

Right .. cause rape data from Muslim countries is soooooooooooooooooo reliable (sarcasm)!


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#43
Futurist

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The most disturbing part of the Cologne's events was the mayor's reaction: she advised German women to dress modestly in order to not "provoke" Arabs.

 

Tbh dressing down a bit to avoid becoming a target for these predators isn't really disturbing, unless you mean the 'provoke' bit is disturbing in which case I agree.

 

The part that those immigrants' rights are considered more important than the rights of the locals is disturbing.

Does anyone actually have a right not to be provoked, though?


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#44
Futurist

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Riss is basically saying: Really? All refugees are bad? Even that innocent little boy?"

 

Oh please, mr.Riss, spare us from these primitive manipulations...

 

 

It’s a criticism of bigots — like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. — who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because they’re rapists or terrorists.

 

I'm also one of them (bigots) since i think one million of foreigners (mainly young men, not villing and unable to assimilate) per year is not a good thing per Germany... actually, this is rather a national catastrophe. And the only real way to avoid the further troubles is close borders until it is too late.

 

PS about caricatures. Just for lulz:

 

CY0hEA8UoAIAERS.jpg

Um ... no homo?



#45
Zeitgeist123

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Riss is basically saying: Really? All refugees are bad? Even that innocent little boy?"

 

Oh please, mr.Riss, spare us from these primitive manipulations...

 

 

It’s a criticism of bigots — like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. — who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because they’re rapists or terrorists.

 

I'm also one of them (bigots) since i think one million of foreigners (mainly young men, not villing and unable to assimilate) per year is not a good thing for Germany... actually, this is rather a national catastrophe. And the only real way to avoid the further troubles is close borders until it is too late.

 

i actually think that mass migration isnt good for any country. but it seems that you are forgetting that these "rapefugees" migrated because of the war in syria. they did not went there just because they want to. they are trying to save themselves and their families. and in this context, of course there will be real clashes. branding refugees as rapists because less than 0.5% of the refugees are doing it would be like saying that all muslims are terrorist, all black guys are living in the projects smoking crack, all russians are prostitutes and pimps, all white guys are serial killers. branding refugees as rapist would not really help smoothen out the transition for both parties. this quite sudden event is inconvenient for the host country, but im with the govt on this one. i dont know how europe handles refugees but in our country we put them in a certain area first (during transition stage) to avoid the citizens from being overwhelmed with the  sudden change and allow refugees to adjust and acculturize.


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“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#46
PhoenixRu

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it seems that you are forgetting that these "rapefugees" migrated because of the war in syria. they did not went there just because they want to. they are trying to save themselves and their families.

 

And where are their families? Most (vast majority) of them are young men and not women/children as you would expect if they were the real war refugees. Also, they are not just "trying to save themselves", they are heading exactly to Germany/Sweden/GB: "Greece? Hungary? Phew, these are poor countries, we want Germany, Merkel herself invited us!" Yes, there are some war refugees among them but the majority are nothing but economic migrants, seeking for european welfare and enjoying their sense of impunity among "dumb and cowardly infidels who cant even protect their own women" :)

 

i dont know how europe handles refugees...

 

Exactly. I also do not see the good ending for this story... well, just wait and see. Recently i said (to Joe00uk, if my memory serves) you have to wait about 10 years. Now i think i was wrong, the culmination will happen much earlier: during few next years, no more...


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#47
joe00uk

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I think these sex attacks should be highlighting the lack of protection for women there is against sexual harassment in the first place, as opposed to "we must close the border to prevent this happening again" because that won't stop it. There were sex attacks before these migrants, so rather than focusing on that there are more of them, the root of the problem itself must be tackled - which is a lack of vigilant police against misogynistic crimes, and the misogynistic rape culture that spawns these crimes.


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"The Proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains." - Karl Marx
"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentleso temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."  - Mao Zedong


#48
PhoenixRu

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I think these sex attacks should be highlighting the lack of protection for women there is against sexual harassment in the first place, as opposed to "we must close the border to prevent this happening again" because that won't stop it.

 

This is not about rapes only. I recently read the forum of German Russian-speaking community, it was full of entertaining stories... for example, group of those "refugees" entering the clothing store to take expensive jackets... for free, of course. In the worst case they can also beat the salesperson (if he will be brave/dumb enough & will try to stop them). In best case they're just laughing: "Merkel, Merkel... she will pay for us"  :biggrin: Needless to say, the police will not help you & media (even local ones) will remain silent because of pc. This only lead to the sense of impunity & to even worse crimes.

 

lack of vigilant police against misogynistic crimes, and the misogynistic rape culture that spawns these crimes.

 

Police is also a part of society & just afraid to act decisively in this case.


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#49
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Then police must toughen up, if they can use water cannons on PEGIDA then they can crack down on migrants looting shops. Total border lock-down isn't necessary in this case.


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"The Proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains." - Karl Marx
"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentleso temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."  - Mao Zedong


#50
PhoenixRu

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Then police must toughen up, if they can use water cannons on PEGIDA then they can crack down on migrants looting shops.

 

To do that, they need the serious changes in their mainstream ideology plus someone like Orban instead of Merkel. Until then, Germans will only complain on forums and write funny graffitis:

 

Bu8QevJIEAA8aGe.jpg

 

"Free us again!" on old Soviet WW2-era tank :)


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#51
Zeitgeist123

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Quick facts about the Syrian Refugee Crisis (lest we forget):

 

Syria crisis: Fast facts

  • 13.5 million people in Syria need humanitarian assistance.1
  • 4.6 million Syrians are refugees, and 6.6 million are displaced within Syria; half are children.2
  • Most Syrian refugees remain in the Middle East, in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt; slightly more than 10 percent of the refugees have traveled to Europe.3
  • Children affected by the Syrian conflict are at risk of becoming ill, malnourished, abused, or exploited. Millions have been forced to quit school.

Why are Syrians fleeing their homes? Three reasons

  1. Violence: Since the Syrian civil war began, 320,000 people have been killed, including nearly 12,000 children. About 1.5 million people have been wounded or permanently disabled, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.5 The war has become more deadly since foreign powers joined the conflict.
  2. Collapsed infrastructure: Within Syria, healthcare, education systems, and other infrastructure have been destroyed; the economy is shattered.
  3. Children’s safety: Syrian children — the nation’s hope for a better future — have lost loved ones, suffered injuries, missed years of schooling, and witnessed violence and brutality. Warring parties forcibly recruit children to serve as fighters, human shields, and in support roles, according to the U.S. State Department.

 

If you want to help. Here's a link:

http://www.worldvisi...-refugee-crisis


“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#52
joe00uk

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Then police must toughen up, if they can use water cannons on PEGIDA then they can crack down on migrants looting shops.

 

To do that, they need the serious changes in their mainstream ideology plus someone like Orban instead of Merkel. 

Well all it takes is different orders from the authorities. The mainstream ideology of the people would never matter to the German government, or most governments, unless they were threatened.


"The Proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains." - Karl Marx
"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentleso temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."  - Mao Zedong


#53
Mashallah

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Riss is basically saying: Really? All refugees are bad? Even that innocent little boy?"

 

Oh please, mr.Riss, spare us from these primitive manipulations...

 

 

It’s a criticism of bigots — like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. — who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because they’re rapists or terrorists.

 

I'm also one of them (bigots) since i think one million of foreigners (mainly young men, not villing and unable to assimilate) per year is not a good thing for Germany... actually, this is rather a national catastrophe. And the only real way to avoid the further troubles is close borders until it is too late.

 

i actually think that mass migration isnt good for any country. but it seems that you are forgetting that these "rapefugees" migrated because of the war in syria. they did not went there just because they want to. they are trying to save themselves and their families. and in this context, of course there will be real clashes. branding refugees as rapists because less than 0.5% of the refugees are doing it would be like saying that all muslims are terrorist, all black guys are living in the projects smoking crack, all russians are prostitutes and pimps, all white guys are serial killers. branding refugees as rapist would not really help smoothen out the transition for both parties. this quite sudden event is inconvenient for the host country, but im with the govt on this one. i dont know how europe handles refugees but in our country we put them in a certain area first (during transition stage) to avoid the citizens from being overwhelmed with the  sudden change and allow refugees to adjust and acculturize.

 

 

Ahem. Most of the Cologne rapist refugees (over 80% IIRC) were from Morocco and Algiers. Neither of those countries has ongoing wars, as far as I know.

Edit: fixed typo. It's Algiers, not Libya.


Edited by Mashallah, 17 January 2016 - 07:36 AM.

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#54
Zeitgeist123

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okay, so why are they lumped in with the syrian refugee crisis then?...geez, right-wingers rabble-rousing again? 


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“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#55
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Riss is basically saying: Really? All refugees are bad? Even that innocent little boy?"

 

Oh please, mr.Riss, spare us from these primitive manipulations...

 

 

It’s a criticism of bigots — like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. — who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because they’re rapists or terrorists.

 

I'm also one of them (bigots) since i think one million of foreigners (mainly young men, not villing and unable to assimilate) per year is not a good thing for Germany... actually, this is rather a national catastrophe. And the only real way to avoid the further troubles is close borders until it is too late.

 

i actually think that mass migration isnt good for any country. but it seems that you are forgetting that these "rapefugees" migrated because of the war in syria. they did not went there just because they want to. they are trying to save themselves and their families. and in this context, of course there will be real clashes. branding refugees as rapists because less than 0.5% of the refugees are doing it would be like saying that all muslims are terrorist, all black guys are living in the projects smoking crack, all russians are prostitutes and pimps, all white guys are serial killers. branding refugees as rapist would not really help smoothen out the transition for both parties. this quite sudden event is inconvenient for the host country, but im with the govt on this one. i dont know how europe handles refugees but in our country we put them in a certain area first (during transition stage) to avoid the citizens from being overwhelmed with the  sudden change and allow refugees to adjust and acculturize.

 

 

Ahem. Most of the Cologne rapist refugees (over 80% IIRC) were from Morocco and Algiers. Neither of those countries has ongoing wars, as far as I know.

Edit: fixed typo. It's Algiers, not Libya.

 

 

Aside from the egregious levels of subtle islamophobia and racism present in this thread, I want to comment that, of the 31 suspects identified by the Bundespolizei, 18 were asylum seekers. For the record, an asylum seeker does not equal refugee. For God's sake there was an American and 2 Germans among them. No one has implicated the American people, or German people because 2 of their nationals were involved in this. Why? Because it'd ludicrous to do so. 

 

This case has to be seen separately from  the Refugee 'Crisis'.

Pick up a history book and see how similar many comments here are to those made leading to countless acts of discriminatory violence throughout history. Classics like the Dreyfus Affair and the related European antisemitism in the 19th & 20th century come to mind. Now, ofcourse, given the respective biases, and ingrained attitudes I know my comment, like those of others preaching reason, will fall upon deaf ears. But it's worth a try. 

 

Here is my source. I have multiple confirming the same thing, from reputable sources. 

 

http://www.huffingto...4b0cad15e639ee2

 

Here a quick summary on the Dreyfus Affair for those interested. Replace Jewish with Muslim.

 

http://www.britannic.../Dreyfus-affair


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#56
MarcZ

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Dreyfus is not a good comparison to this situation at all Kumulus. In fact I am a little surprised you seem to think they are similar. That case was centered on the trust worthiness of one man in light of his racial background. This thread is primarily about the government/police/media response to mass sexual harassment in Germany and Sweden and their apparent attempts to cover it up because it is inconvenient for their official narratives. Dreyfus on the other hand is when the government cracked down with no basis on a Jewish man due to anti-Semitic, and anti-German sentiment. So in fact this thread is about the very opposite problem as to what was occurring in the Dreyfus affair. 

 

 

okay, so why are they lumped in with the syrian refugee crisis then?...geez, right-wingers rabble-rousing again? 

 

Because they are coming in as part of the refugee influx from Syria, and are able to get in with the same crowd. The refugee crisis is not only about Syria by the way, the Mediterranean boat crisis which has been going on for like 4 years now is primarily from people from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Sub-Saharan Africa. This is part of the reason I used the word refugees throughout the OP because it isn't particularly Muslims from Syria, there are all sorts of people in this group which may include large amounts of Christians from some of the sub-Saharan African countries. However, these countries all tend to have way less respect for women then you have in the West. You can see the routes and origins from this lovely Wikipedia map below. Most of the migrants do appear to be from Islamic countries though.

 

800px-Map_of_the_European_Migrant_Crisis

 

It should also be noted that when Germany announced save-haven to refugees it did it too all refugee seekers and not just those from Syria. Anyone can apply for asylum once they reach Germany, and Germany can then choose to accept them or not. 


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#57
Kumulus

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"Because they are coming in as part of the refugee influx from Syria, and are able to get in with the same crowd."

 

 

Do we then stop them all from coming here on the because a few get involved in criminal activities? 

 

I made the Dreyfus reference because the way people jumped onto the "Blame-all-refugees-for-everything"-wagon reminded me of the blame-all-Jews-for-everything atmosphere around that time. I hope that clarifies where I was coming from.  

 

More importantly though, the refugee crisis has nothing to do with this. Some asylum seekers committed crimes, so what? Asylum seekers were able to commit crime before the "rapefugees" were on everyone's mind. Unfortunately it's a fair bet some did, ever since people moving to places became a thing. That does however not free us from a moral duty to help those who flee situations of despair.

I'm agreed that the male-female relationship is and can be very different for the newcomers, but it'll be alright, given the right policies. Around the turn of the millennium we saw a similar uptick in refugees (though this has superseded that by now). Yet, our countries are standing, crime has not increased, and women aren't being raped more than they used to be.

 

If the conversation was about tougher penalties for offending asylum seekers rather than "stop-all-fugees", this conversation would seem far more pertinent. The very word "rapefugees" itself is in my opinion quite disrespectful to the thousands of people earnestly trying to get a better life, only for their suffering to be conflated with grubby criminals. 


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#58
MarcZ

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I am not suggesting you stop them all from coming here. I am however saying that the unrestricted open borders is not acceptable as the authorities do not have the resources to keep track of all these people and launch successful integration policies with this strategy, which is especially important based on the cultural treatment of women and other groups in the cultures many of these refugees and asylum seekers are coming from. What Germany and Sweden should do instead would be something more similar to Canada, where the government can go to the refugee camps within the Middle East and allow refugees to apply for asylum there. Once the claims have been processed the government can then help fly people over to Canada and set them up in an organized system where the government can clearly plan and allocate resources based on yearly reasonable targets which allows integration into Canadian society to flow much more seamlessly. 

 

Also it is a security threat as evident by the fact several of the Paris attackers entered Europe through the refugee route. The government is supposed to be responsible for the safety of its own citizens, while you argue for this moral obligation to help these people, the government's greater moral responsibility is to keep its own citizens safe, and if push comes to shove the latter in my opinion is always more important than the former.

 

As for your claim that the crime/rape rate has not increased. Sweden is particularly difficult to ascertain due to the fact they constantly change their rape reporting statistics, of in fact don't report things at all (which is what is being claimed in the above article) which causes people to no longer trust statistics. Some reports have shown that The National Crime Survey in Sweden does have some interesting statistics for you up to 2014: https://www.bra.se/b...exualbrott.html

 

The number of instances of sexual offences has increased quite markedly since 2012. The primary reason for this is increases in sexual molestation as opposed to rape or sexual coercion. This seems to me at least to fit the kind of things that were witnessed in Cologne. Also the percentage of victims shows that overall reported incidents of sexual offences as a % of the population is above what it was in 2005, and these are primarily focused on women. 

 

In Germany, I have found it hard to find numbers from more reputable sources. Wikipedia has a few but they are from the UNODC which as above suggests that rape is less prevalent in Middle Eastern countries than Europe which leads me to question the entire objectivity of their study. The numbers aren't that recent though the amount of reported rapes is on the rise, while the conviction rate is decreasing. https://en.wikipedia...Rape_in_Germany


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#59
ironland

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Huge amounts of racists, extremist nationalists, straight up Nazis and other scum here in Finland. There are even zenophobic, far-right street patrols in major cities, composed of violent criminals, skinheads and racists. There are many bullshit and racist publications and websites that are 100% motivated against all immigration and multiculturalism, who demonize others to further their own agenda, and these are cited often among the masses even though their information value is zero. I am tired of this country and these redneck morons. Finland is a heaven for those who are jealous, bitter, small-minded, angry, depressed, alcoholics and intolerant.

Edit: Not everyone in Finland is like this, but an alarmingly large portion of the population nevertheless. The atmosphere is currently that of the 1930's, when there were violent, far-right street patrols and other fuckery.

Now, about the crisis itself: it is dire indeed. It will only get worse with the coming years. The climate refugee crisis will dwarf the current problems. We will need an international plan and large investments and actions to manage it at least partially.



#60
ironland

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One solution to the refugee crisis of the future could be for the EU, perhaps the USA and China, to build refugee-metropolises in Africa where the huge refugee masses could be housed. In these metropolises the refugees could construct the schools, homes, hospitals, factories etc. and work in them. People would be provided with fair living conditions and language- and occupational education. European companies would be allowed to utilize the workforce. After aquiring an education and competency, the refugees could work for the European firms, or even better, return to their home countries (if possible) to make use of their proficiency and help their homeland. This project would probably costs tens of billions, but with evolving manufacturing technologies like cheap 3D-printing etc. it could be doable. It could manage the refugee crisis.

Just letting my imagination flow. I think it could be the best solution, seeing that there could be hundreds of millions of climate refugees.






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