51 replies to this topic

[existentcircus]

'Religion' is just an award winning, best selling, truly popular and Brainwashing STORY.. created by an evolved, over-intelligent species, that is ALL. They must have thought they were truly creating something spectacular when they began to create the future 'laws of existence'. There is no certain 'way of life'.. there are no 'rules of existence'. 'Beliefs' have no correlation with what is Existent, or what you 'think' is Existent. All you are doing is copying past creatures way of 'life', because you do not know how to create your Own. They (you) are lost, and Brainwashed.

I agree that evolving ourselves, and our 'technology', is best for creating a better future for every single creation. Although, the dream-concept of a 'god', will do no good what-so-ever for our future.. (the only good it did for the past, was the creation of 'law', although.. we have created our OWN, new 'law') I am smiling, although, because as Science and Technology evolves, the concept of a 'god' will diminish more and more until there is nothing left but the decay of old 'bibles' and 'crosses'.

Every living creature is equal, no matter what size body, or what size brain. How Existence itself has evolved and survived, is fantastic, but it was not caused by a 'god'. The knowledge that if my body dies, I will be dead forever, non-existent, eternally, is perfectly FINE. That is why I do so much research on life-extension and 'immortality'. I don't want my body to be non-existent. Not because of NON-EXISTENT 'LOVE', not because I care about 'others' (I only care about my own existence), but because I want to see the Universe(s)' Existence evolve, and I want to evolve!

If you want to 'praise' a 'sacred power', PRAISE YOURSELF.. for SURVIVING. STOP TRYING TO COPY WHAT OTHER 'PEOPLE' HAVE MADE UP. MAKE UP YOUR OWN STORY.

[GNR Rvolution]

ah but your saying that "science doesn't believe" and that "reason is based on intuition" those two can be considered faith! Why did you ask your scientific question? Well people feel so strongly that their answer is right that they use the scientific method to prove it! You cannot yet, prove, God's existence with the scientific method.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Faith in Science,"? There are somethings in this universe that science cannot answer and will never answer. There will always be questions!

To me belief in something is where an individual recognises and can explain why something happens, for example I believe in Evolution because there is overwhelming proof for it, and certain elements of religion can answer can be believed, but only from a moralistic viewpoint. People can believe in something which turns out to be false, which I believe anyone who tries to answer questions about our origin is doing, they may think they are right but I think that they are wrong.

Faith on the other hand is putting your trust in something even though you don't know how it works. A person can have faith in science, they can accept it even if they don't understand it, but that's the same thing as having religious faith, you trust in something that you can't explain. At some point however, most things can and will be answered by science at which point faith becomes belief. But religion can and will never be able to answer those questions, and that's where it falls down.

Your perspective of religion comes from a time where Christianity, Catholicism and most of the other western monotheistic religions have shifted away from trying to answer these questions to providing a purely moral compass serving function (intelligent design aside), it's a tactic purveyed by the church to stop their dwindling numbers in the face of science which has disproved so many things originally cast in stone by religion that it knows that it is fighting a losing battle.

[Craven]

I did read your post and I did answer it. Are you confused by my answer? I answered it pretty clearly but please point out where you are confused and I will elaborate even clearer if possible.

Oh I'm not confused, you just clearly didn't understand it, you shown that in post #12 and #15. Basically it seem you imagine things I've said instead of actually comprehending my posts, that I've written clearly, referring to specific portions of text.

Edited by Craven, 16 January 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[jjf3]

Your perspective of religion comes from a time where Christianity, Catholicism and most of the other western monotheistic religions have shifted away from trying to answer these questions to providing a purely moral compass serving function (intelligent design aside), it's a tactic purveyed by the church to stop their dwindling numbers in the face of science which has disproved so many things originally cast in stone by religion that it knows that it is fighting a losing battle.

Actually not really. Is there proof that church attendance is declining? Is there any evidence that Religion is dying? Not really. In fact, I've seen people come out as more devout Christians than ever before since 9/11 happened. And Religion has ruled the planet since the dawn of humanity. It temporarily answers those questions that science cannot answer, and might never answer. Science is brand new. There is no guarantee that science is the number one answer for everything. Something besides Religion and Science might evolve in the future. Something we cannot even imagine right now.

Religion changes and evolves with science. While there may be some hesitation in letting evolution and gravity in at first, the Church eventually evolves with that knowledge. For the longest time the Earth was the center of the universe because it was considered a sin to allow the Sun to be the center of even the solar system. As that would be seen as worshiping a false God. Now, we know that there are far more Earth-like planets out there, and the church is ok with that. It is up to each and every person to allow how much religion can influence their way of life. We shouldn't hope for religion or anti-religion to disappear. It's a personal choice and people should be free to choose if they want religion in their lives or not without being judged or stereotyped.

Now, when government and politics is mixed in with religion, that's where it gets messy.

Edited by jjf3, 16 January 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[GNR Rvolution]

Well in the UK the numbers are definitely on the decline, see below:

http://www.vexen.co....K/religion.html

And numbers in mainland Europe are doing the same. The US has a much stronger religious vein to it, specifically in the mid-west and Southern states, from what I know of the US, so I would maybe expect to see the numbers there are potentially much higher than you would find on the East or West coast.

However, I think the 'hesitation of letting evolution and gravity in' is rather an understatement as it was not hesitation it was outright persecution of people who tried to air these views.

[jjf3]

However, I think the 'hesitation of letting evolution and gravity in' is rather an understatement as it was not hesitation it was outright persecution of people who tried to air these views.

But now, it's the opposite. Conservative republicans and other religious people are attacked daily for their religious beliefs. In a country that is supposed to be for the freedom of religious beliefs. We sure don't like it when kids pray in school, or when we have to say under god in our pledge of allegiance because there might be one atheist in the classroom? Come on. How many kids in school don't believe in God? On this forum, even though it is highly technological and science based, what if a proud member of the tea party came on here to express his views? he would get kicked out and the members of this forum would laugh him off. I think that science and religion need to maintain a good balance with each other. There should be some corporation between the two.

Furthermore, this whole timeline is about faith. We have faith in technology That it will advance to the levels as amazingly portrayed on this timeline. We can use all of the statistical data we can to back up our claims, but the fact still remains, that we cannot go forward in time and actually check out if each one of the predictions came true. It's science based on faith. In three years the entire world may be in complete ruin from Nuclear War and there are websites out there that predict this with very good evidence as well.

We put faith in our governments, in our leaders, in our technology. To allow them to work for us properly when we want them to. We trust and put faith in the corporations and business leaders of the world to make the right decisions. People have different opinions and different ways of thinking. Even if you have all of the right facts, the right information, and you know what you need to do. The human part of us, might chooses to do the riskier things, because we put faith in ourselves that we can handle it. That's what Entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Richard Branson did. Sure they have facts and information to prove how successful they have been. But it always starts off with faith in that one idea, that one vision, that one need to be met, or dream.

I don't want to sound cheesy, but faith that you can do it.

[KingstonDon]

But now, it's the opposite. Conservative republicans and other religious people are attacked daily for their religious beliefs. In a country that is supposed to be for the freedom of religious beliefs.

As said a billion times, you have a right to your own opinion, but not your own fact.
The first part of that statement is 100% wrong.

There's no -now it's the opposite-, the faithful and the faithless have been at odds for a very long time. Then and now the faithful frequently have the greater numbers. Even now, the faithful have the greater numbers in the majority of the world and the faithless have to put up with the bullshit.
Mandatory prayer, "God" in the anthem, acts of violence, etc ...

Then with ideas originating from "The Enlightenment" your founding fathers founded a country where church and state would be separate.
This means that in public schools, strictly speaking there should be no reference to religion, in private schools you can do whatever the hell you want.
It's not because there's an atheist in the school that there shouldn't be a reference to religion, it's because it's unconstitutional that it shouldn't be referenced to.

I and many others here and in the world reserve our right to attack any statement or idea we view as being asinine or just plain ignorant, it's called Freedom of Speech.
It wasn't promoted because it was seen as being fine and fluffy to everyone, it was promoted because that way you provide the fairest platform in argumentation and debate. There will be jackasses on both fronts, but that isn't a defining trait of any one group.

Once again, don't form your own facts, now we can carry on and discuss some more.

[jjf3]

If you bare with me, I don't think believing in God has anything to do with religion. I am not a very religious person, but I believe in God. I do not mind saying our pledge! It's not brainwashing to say one nation under God when the majority of the planet believe in a God. There is a fact for you. Really? How evil can that really be? I'm not talking about mandatory prayer in school, I'm talking about the right to do it.

God has nothing to do with religious doctrine. As I've been saying throughout this whole thread.

You can't really say God doesn't exist until the existence of a higher power is indeed proven or not.

Saying, "The faithless have to put up with the bullshit," Is your own opinion isn't? Being faithless is your own choice your own opinion until it is proven or not.

Edited by jjf3, 18 January 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[KingstonDon]

Saying, "The faithless have to put up with the bullshit," Is your own opinion isn't? Being faithless is your own choice your own opinion until it is proven or not.

You're right, they have to put up with it.

[jjf3]

Saying, "The faithless have to put up with the bullshit," Is your own opinion isn't? Being faithless is your own choice your own opinion until it is proven or not.

You're right, they have to put up with it.

Yeah, you have to put up with it. So suck it up. You can voice your opinions, you have the right to believe what you want. But Billions believe in a God. It's not going to change overnight. Freedom of Religion applies to everyone. You can't silence all of religion.

That being said, I do have a problem with being required to take religious courses in schools. There is a limit. But getting rid of God in the pledge I think is silly until the majority of the planet is Atheist.

[KingstonDon]

Saying, "The faithless have to put up with the bullshit," Is your own opinion isn't? Being faithless is your own choice your own opinion until it is proven or not.

You're right, they have to put up with it.

Yeah, you have to put up with it. So suck it up. You can voice your opinions, you have the right to believe what you want. But Billions believe in a God. It's not going to change overnight. Freedom of Religion applies to everyone. You can't silence all of religion.

That being said, I do have a problem with being required to take religious courses in schools. There is a limit. But getting rid of God in the pledge I think is silly until the majority of the planet is Atheist.

So to hell with any constitution that says separation of church and state, because the majority of the planet is theist?
If I were living in the Christian Republic of America, I would understand, but I'm not. The ideas of the enlightenment and thus your constitution are trampled on by overly fanatical people.

[jjf3]

So to hell with any constitution that says separation of church and state, because the majority of the planet is theist?
If I were living in the Christian Republic of America, I would understand, but I'm not. The ideas of the enlightenment and thus your constitution are trampled on by overly fanatical people.

It's such a shame you don't understand what I am saying. Let me spell it out for you.

1. God in this context does not have anything to do with religious fanatics.
2. America welcomes all religions. Not just Christians.
3. Belief in God =/= belief in Christianity.
4. Our Constitution was based on faith and morality. The guys who wrote it were very weary of religion but they realized the majority of the country would agree with their ideas. And the majority of our country does and still do after more than 250 years.

Stop being sensational and making up your own facts as you always accuse me of doing

Edited by jjf3, 18 January 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[GNR Rvolution]

But now, it's the opposite. Conservative republicans and other religious people are attacked daily for their religious beliefs. In a country that is supposed to be for the freedom of religious beliefs. We sure don't like it when kids pray in school, or when we have to say under god in our pledge of allegiance because there might be one atheist in the classroom? Come on. How many kids in school don't believe in God? On this forum, even though it is highly technological and science based, what if a proud member of the tea party came on here to express his views? he would get kicked out and the members of this forum would laugh him off. I think that science and religion need to maintain a good balance with each other. There should be some corporation between the two.

That may be the case, but as pointed out it has always been the case, because these are opposing views on how the world works. There can never truly be co-operation (I assume that's what you meant) because they are at odds with one another. It's just that the boot is on the other foot now, but I don't think that the attacks against religion are nearly as bad as those carried out against science by religion only a couple of centuries ago. Anyone who was to come on to this site and present ideas that are not is always welcome (I believe), and they would never be kicked off, although it would be up to them to back up their views and opinions.

Furthermore, this whole timeline is about faith. We have faith in technology That it will advance to the levels as amazingly portrayed on this timeline. We can use all of the statistical data we can to back up our claims, but the fact still remains, that we cannot go forward in time and actually check out if each one of the predictions came true. It's science based on faith. In three years the entire world may be in complete ruin from Nuclear War and there are websites out there that predict this with very good evidence as well.

I don't believe that this site is about faith, it is simply about a collation of predictions, which could be right or wrong. No-one is asserting a claim that these things are inevitable, only that they are predicted to a greater or lesser degree of accuracy. But that's not to say that people can't have faith in science, as I pointed out in my earlier post. The point about science as opposed to religion is that science can back up faith with cold empirical evidence, whilst religion cannot. Religion has only ever been able to present circumstantial evidence at best to back up any of it's claims.

We put faith in our governments, in our leaders, in our technology. To allow them to work for us properly when we want them to. We trust and put faith in the corporations and business leaders of the world to make the right decisions. People have different opinions and different ways of thinking. Even if you have all of the right facts, the right information, and you know what you need to do. The human part of us, might chooses to do the riskier things, because we put faith in ourselves that we can handle it. That's what Entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Richard Branson did. Sure they have facts and information to prove how successful they have been. But it always starts off with faith in that one idea, that one vision, that one need to be met, or dream.

I'd put faith in technology, but personally I have little or no faith in political parties or leaders. I also do not have faith in the business world, I can only have faith in people I know and trust, which discounts most people. I don't believe that SJ or RB built their empires based purely on faith, that's how bad business works. They succeeded because they had intelligence and empathy and they built products and services that appealed to the market.

[wjfox]

I mean, if Billions of people on the Planet believe in something, they can't all be wrong can they?

If billions of people thought the Earth was flat, would that mean the Earth was flat?

The world has over 1.6 billion Muslims. Does that mean their religion is right and Christianity is wrong?

Are you seriously suggesting that global warming and religion have equal amounts of scientific evidence?

There's got to be something that sparked this religious belief in mankind.

Back then, people were totally ignorant about the universe and their origins, had much shorter lifespans and lived in harsher conditions. Naturally, they looked for some form of "leadership" to give them comfort and provide an explanation for their existence based on their extremely limited knowledge. How could they possibly know about things like the Big Bang, evolution or the marvels of modern medicine? Early humans began by worshipping things like the Sun, then gradually developed more human-like Gods, until eventually the Jesus story came along. Today, our scientific knowledge has exploded exponentially, whilst quality of life has soared, and non-religious people are more numerous than ever as a result.

[KingstonDon]

So to hell with any constitution that says separation of church and state, because the majority of the planet is theist?
If I were living in the Christian Republic of America, I would understand, but I'm not. The ideas of the enlightenment and thus your constitution are trampled on by overly fanatical people.

It's such a shame you don't understand what I am saying. Let me spell it out for you.

1. God in this context does not have anything to do with religious fanatics.
2. America welcomes all religions. Not just Christians.
3. Belief in God =/= belief in Christianity.
4. Our Constitution was based on faith and morality. The guys who wrote it were very weary of religion but they realized the majority of the country would agree with their ideas. And the majority of our country does and still do after more than 250 years.

Stop being sensational and making up your own facts as you always accuse me of doing

Responding to corresponding numbers here:

1. Not all religions have a deity at the center of it, therefore even to those groups the concept of "God" is unwelcome
2. If America welcomes all religions, it would associate itself with specific religions because it chooses the reference of God within it's official notes, anthems and public
schools.
3. Indeed belief in God doesn't = christianity. Reference (http://en.wikipedia....istic_religions)
4. The Constitution was influenced primarily on ideas from The Enlightenment, they didn't draw inspiration from their own faith and not necessarily from their "inner"
morality to form it to general liking. Reference (http://en.wikipedia....e_Enlightenment)

The political ideals influenced the American Declaration of Independence, the United States Bill of Rights.

My perceived sensationalism stems from my love of sarcasm, differentiate. There are no facts being made up here boy, if so name one.

To continue on the line of thought about religious people being attacked for their beliefs.
The attacks will continue to go both sides, there's no sudden shift that puts the "poor" religious people at the defensive front most of the time.
We finally have a platform (the internet) where a-religious individuals have a place to be themselves wherever they are and thus can engage in debating what they disagree with.

But now, it's the opposite. Conservative republicans and other religious people are attacked daily for their religious beliefs. In a country that is supposed to be for the freedom of religious beliefs

That statement is completely out of touch because it just takes a look out of one lens.

Edited by KingstonDon, 19 January 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[jjf3]

Do you speak for the religious that do not have God at the center? Nope.

Example: I have Quakers in my family and they celebrate Christmas with us. They are not offended because people talk about God. That is religious tolerance. They understand that Billions of people believe in God. You preach tolerance on all people but yet, you want everybody to adhere to your belief that there is no God? There is something called Atheistic Extremism too. And the atheists that want to convert everybody into atheists are no worse than the Muslim terrorists or Christian evangelicals.

That's pretty much saying to hell with religion it is only for ignorant and stupid people. That argument has proven wrong time and time again. Actually it's been proven that Religion and Faith and that "can do" attitude helps people succeed above and beyond. While it seems like I am selling a cheesy how to book. It's true! It's been proven that once people become a part of a religious community and do good deeds for others, volunteer, surround themselves with the right people, then they are happier and healthier in life. It works for most religious people. It helps people out of sticky situations. I'm not saying you can't do it without religion, but all of those things are the basis for religion as well.

If you truly believe that no good comes from religion, than I can't force a belief of God upon you. Religion and faith comes from inside and the society around you. You can't make me believe that there is no God or higher power simply because you believe it too! It has yet to be proven and once it is or is not proven 100% no question that there is no God. I will cease to believe.

Again, when it comes to the constitution. I am not talking about religion. The founding fathers weren't that religious! I am talking about faith, compassion, morality, tolerance. All the things that religion preaches. That is what influenced the Constitution. So yes, you can say, religion in fact had a role to play in the making of the constitution no matter how indirectly.

I hope that some of the atheists on this forum will consider taking a theology course. Because some of the things you are saying about religion is just as ignorant as the evangelicals believing in the flat-earth theory. Taking a theology course will open your mind up to religion a lot more than reading what I can dictate to you on the internet. No, it will not be brainwashing (well depends on the professor). Priests usually don't judge. Some may even call it enlightening. You can take the course and walk away with the same non-belief in God, but you will understand religion so much better!

Edited by jjf3, 19 January 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[wjfox]

the atheists that want to convert everybody into atheists are no worse than the Muslim terrorists

Indeed. Atheist suicide bombers are frequently on the news. They're clearly a big problem.

[jjf3]

the atheists that want to convert everybody into atheists are no worse than the Muslim terrorists

Indeed. Atheist suicide bombers are frequently on the news. They're clearly a big problem.

It's still the same concept. No matter how you act upon it. The Muslim extremists want to spread Islam. The Evangelicals want you to attend church everyday and convert to Catholicism and the Atheists want you to not believe in God. I say who cares? Let people believe in God if they want to, because as far as I see it it's the religious dogma not belief in God that makes people want to kill each other.

Actually, isn't posting Atheist videos, and atheist articles the "proper" way to educate people into believing that there is not a God. Wouldn't that be called propaganda, to some people? The reason I brought that up is because Extreme Atheists usually feel the need to "Educate" others about how they know for certain that God doesn't exist, without even asking the other people if they want to listen to what they have to say. It's still spreading and pushing an agenda. And I say, let people believe what they want to believe. That's the glory of Freedom of Religion.

Edited by jjf3, 19 January 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[KingstonDon]

How did you jump to the conclusion that some of us here are trying to turn you or others into an atheist?

I couldn't care less about what you believe in, as long as you don't spew untruths. You can believe in God all you want but if you use God as a fray for your ignorance, I for one will attack.
Those AmazingAtheist videos aren't all about atheism, there's alot of other stuff being talked about as well, more so than not.

Edited by KingstonDon, 19 January 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[jjf3]

The world has over 1.6 billion Muslims. Does that mean their religion is right and Christianity is wrong?

To theologians, people who study religion, agnostics and passive priests religion isn't about what is right or wrong. It's about how you view the world around you. I could just as easily say there are so few atheists in the world that your non-belief in God doesn't matter and is completely wrong. But I'm being ignorant because I don't know that you are wrong. Just like you don't know for sure that God doesn't exist. It's a BELIEF.

Are you seriously suggesting that global warming and religion have equal amounts of scientific evidence?

No, but they definitely have very strong similarities. As you know I hate anything that pushes agendas upon other people. Let them choose! Yes, even it's its complete ignorance.

Today, our scientific knowledge has exploded exponentially, whilst quality of life has soared, and non-religious people are more numerous than ever as a result.

More non-religious people. And that's a good thing? Lolz. JK

Even with this scientific knowledge you cannot prove God's existence or nonexistence. So until that happens everything about God or non-Gods is still a belief that people are allowed to have. Even with 100% proof that God doesn't exist people will still believe he does. And that's why science does not and probably will never understand or be able to solve/cure faith.

Edited by jjf3, 19 January 2012 - 10:14 PM.