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A discussion between faith and reason:


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51 replies to this topic

#41
jjf3

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How did you jump to the conclusion that some of us here are trying to turn you or others into an atheist?


Your trying to make things personal again here. I never said on this forum there are extreme atheists nor was it ever implied. Other areas on the net and elsewhere act like religion is the root of all evil, needs to be stopped and never amounts to any good. Atheists are still pushing an agenda and a belief system that maybe others do not believe or is insulting to them.

Just like the atheists spreading their "war on Christmas" which they horribly lost. Or putting all christians into the category of flat-earth creationists.

Edited by jjf3, 19 January 2012 - 10:23 PM.

"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#42
truthiness

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If I may sidetrack a little, speaking of the "War on Christmas" (copyright Fox News, 2005), I've always found it rather odd that atheists are seen as the aggressor, or even really a participant, in the destruction of the (religious) Christmas holiday. The "War on Christmas" is built up to be this major secularist attack on a religious holiday fought using punitive action protesting religious symbols in public places, such as schools or courthouses, and indeed this does occur every year, somewhere in this country. But, it seems to me that the real antagonists in the War on Christmas are the commercialists. Every year some lip service is paid to the overall regret that a major religious holiday has been effectively hijacked in the name of capitalism, but every year we merrily march to the toy stores and buy the latest toys, clothes, and gadgets on Black Friday (an apt name for what has become the true source of celebration every Christmas season - money, and new things!). Christmas has been under attack for years, and I'd argue that it has been effectively defeated by the forces of commercialization. The supposed attacks on Christmas from secularists are a distraction from the real issue. The Christian holiday of Christmas (meant, I think, to be a far more solemn holiday spent with family in worship) is lost, but it wasn't us atheists that killed it.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one

#43
jjf3

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It was very real a few years ago when the atheists wanted the media to stop saying merry christmas everywhere. It was "politically incorrect." That is taking away freedom of religion. How is merry Christmas offensive when it is their own holiday? Atheists get the majority of days let Christians have at least one!

Edited by jjf3, 20 January 2012 - 06:07 PM.

"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#44
Caiman

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when the atheists wanted the media to stop saying merry christmas everywhere

'The atheists' - I think you should perhaps rephrase as 'some atheists' or 'proponents of other religions' even. Atheists aren't an orgainsed group or institution, nor do all atheists share the same opinions of politics, economics, indeed on religion, etc.
~Jon

#45
jjf3

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ugh--- i was talking about the atheists (mainly) those who wanted to silence Christians from saying Merry Christmas. Name me a jew that has said this?

I didn't think I had to spoon feed that one. It was pretty apparent a few years ago.

Edited by jjf3, 20 January 2012 - 06:24 PM.

"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#46
Caiman

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i was talking about the atheists (mainly) those who wanted to silence Christians from saying Merry Christmas. Name me a jew that has said this?


Heh... http://en.wikipedia....mas_controversy

I didn't think I had to spoon feed that one. It was pretty apparent a few years ago.

Excuse me for not knowing everything about something that happened in the US 7 years ago :p
~Jon

#47
jjf3

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I'm sorry you were acting like you knew about it. When I said the atheists it was perfectly in context because i was specifically talking about those atheists that wanted the media to stop saying Merry Christmas. That's what I meant by spoon feeding.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#48
Caiman

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Fair enough, but I think it's evident (see the link I posted) that there is plenty of that going on from non-christian religious people too.
~Jon

#49
wjfox

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#50
eacao

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Most religions, even Modern day Muslims denounce the killings of other people in the name of their religion.


No. It says in the second "chapter" of the Quran that Allah thinks non-muslims are cowardly and they pretend to tollerate Islam, but when alone they mock islam. It says, in the Quran, that Allah sees non-muslims as enemies. And it does say "enemies".

"People Aren't against you; they're for themselves"
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#51
kjaggard

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Faith does not equal religion. Christianity does not equal faith. Spirituality does not equal religion, nor faith. Dogma does not equal spirituality, faith, or religion. Athiest do not equal lack of faith, or dogma. Let us also not forget Agnostic does not mean Atheist.

Too many people throw these terms around like they are interchangable.

Science deals with the physical verifiable universe and the abstract systems of rules by which it is governed. These are things that are universal and varifiable. That is the realm of science.

The definitions of some of those others gets fuzzy at the edges so bare with me on some of this.

Spirituality is an awareness and maybe even a perception of a seperate model and paradigm of existance. One that is personel. No one can verify that a mothers comfort is powerful, there is no system of measure. Personel truths and perspectives on reality can only be personel, nobody else can experiance anything from your perspective.

Religion is an attempt by several people to find commonalities within personel spiritualities.

Dogma is a traditional codified position on personel truths. This can also be seen in those who have codified that the only truths are those verifiable in the outside world, or others who say that it is unknowable. Dogma usually comes with a sense of self assurance that their perspective is the one right one and a destinct "do not cross" line.

Faith is simply an expectation without conciously attributable reason that something is acceptable or right. This can apply to personel truths and scientific truths.

So essentially Faith, and Dogma are tools that can be applied in the two reals of personel truth and universal truths.

Religions is a common language of symbols and words used connect perspectives on common grounds. Sadly too many see fit to use religion as a means to judge others rather than as a means to understand themselves. And they often pair it with dogma.

Atheists, by definition do not believe in a god or gods, they exist outside of the theistic mindset. This does not equate to without spiritualism, or without faith or dogma.

Agnostics by definition believe that these question do not have answers that can be known. Much like you cannot know what number I am thinking of right now. and by the time I read this tomorrow I won't remember. From here on out the answer to what number was he thinking of, is unknowable. Agnostics apply this to establishing what is the universal truth of personel truths. They acknowledge that it an uncrossable paradigm gap. you cannot measure love in inches, nor awe in pounds, you cannot even verify that two beings experiance the color red in the same way. There is know way in which to know the universal truth that is applicable to all personel truths.

I know plenty of folks from all sets. I know an agnostic that none the less reads the runes and has an alter to Odin.
I know an atheist who would tell you clearly that the reason he does good things and loves life is because that is all there is. You don't pee in your food just because you don't believe in a god. You enjoy the experiance of food and good company and you seek more of that enjoyment and fulfillment through living.
I know a Christian who will gladly attend a pagan ritual and support the rights of people to connect with whatever divinity is theirs.
I know a pagan who believes that the dieing on the cross was an act that transcends mortal humanity and established a wake up moment in some few of the observers who spawn a meme of waking up to their ways of culture and becoming conscious deciders in how to be as human being, and sees that as a divine act. (but still say he most definately isn't christian).
I know scientist who use faith, dogma or both while being atheists.
I know religious people that couldn't find faith with search helicopters and blood hounds. But they'll more than make up for it with dogma.
I know spiritualists that use a bit of faith from time to time and occasionally borrow some dogma from their neighbors before returning it and who use Religion to relate and connect but just as easily realise it's a system of words and symbols for relating and is not always needed to get by in life, and a person can be 'multilingual'.
I also know those who propound science as the only truth, and then when pressed reveal that science is their religion. They use science as a god by simply changing the language and symbols (religion) of personel truths to be represented by physical science. They expect to find the consciousness particle ect.

PS. I also know several people that find the concept of a war on christmas assanine. 1) Your not even celebrating the birth of christ at the right time. 2)almost all of the traditions are coopted from pagan faiths, which were often converted by force and actual war. 3) wishing not to have to be exposed to it at every turn as if it is the only or correct way is not war. Ask yourself how often you have had somebody assume you are spending the day of the dead connecting with passed family members and honoring their memories through celebrating your connections with them. Nobody assumes it of you, nobody drowns you in it every year to the smothering of your own religious or secular practices. It's that cultural assumption of christmas time of all the people that is offensive and war like. War like in that in invades their homes and their lives and forces them to accept it in their routines and in their foods. If it were Communist propaganda you'd be up in arms but it's christmas and it's yours, so you don't see it. Try talking with family and friends about the past christmas and this coming holiday and as people talk edit the word Christmas out and put in it's place some way of life that is not yours, and then imagine that conversation is your life from thanksgiving to new years.

#52
mic of orion

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One wonders what kind of people these Republicans are.



It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.




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