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The Future of U.S. - Russian Relations

United States Russia Vladimir Putin Hillary Clinton International diplomacy

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#41
PhoenixRu

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I just watched the political talk show about Western-Rusian relations... an unforgettable thing! All the invited western "intellectuals and experts" were incredible haughty and hostile, the softest of their speeches was: "Russians, you're weak, do not flatter yourself, you're not our enemy, just an obstacle. If you're going to fight, you will be defeated and this will be good for you. Russian people have no intellectual resources to manage themselves and to become a normal country".

 

Negotiations, you say? Discussions and "constructive dialogue"? But which discussions are possible with such a scum? I think the big war is inevitable. Maybe not this year, maybe not even the next year, but already inevitable. I'm not so naive to wait any "love" or "respect" towards Russia from westerners, the much bigger problem is that they are no longer afraid of "obstacles". 

 

PS Military exersized has long ago became a routine, but few days ago there was also a serie of "stress tests" for administrative and financial system to check their work in the state of war... the last preparations to mrs.Clinton presidency, i think.


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#42
Pisiu369

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Harry Reid Cites Evidence of Russian Tampering in U.S. Vote, and Seeks F.B.I. Inquiry
 
http://www.nytimes.c...ss&emc=rss&_r=0
 
 

 
The Senate minority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, asked the F.B.I. on Monday to investigate evidence suggesting that Russia may try to manipulate voting results in November.
In a letter to the F.B.I. director, James B. Comey Jr., Mr. Reid wrote that the threat of Russian interference “is more extensive than is widely known and may include the intent to falsify official election results.” Recent classified briefings from senior intelligence officials, Mr. Reid said in an interview, have left him fearful that President Vladimir V. Putin’s “goal is tampering with this election.”
 
News reports on Monday said the F.B.I. warned state election officials several weeks ago that foreign hackers had exported voter registration data from computer systems in at least one state, and had pierced the systems of a second one.
 
The bureau did not name the states, but Yahoo News, which first reported the confidential F.B.I. warning, said they were Arizona and Illinois. Matt Roberts, a spokesman for Arizona’s secretary of state, said the F.B.I. had told state officials that Russians were behind the Arizona attack.
 
After the F.B.I. warning, Arizona took its voter registration database offline from June 28 to July 8 to allow for a forensic exam of its systems, Mr. Roberts said.
The F.B.I., in its notice to states, said the voter information had been “exfiltrated,” which means that it was shipped out of the state systems to another computer. But it does not mean that the data itself was tampered with.
 
It is unclear whether the hackers intended to affect the election or pursued the data for other purposes, like gaining personal identifying information about voters. The F.B.I. warning referred to “targeting activity” against state boards of elections, but did not discuss the intent of the hackers.

30cyber-master768.jpg
 
Senator Harry Reid of Nevada campaigning this month with Hillary Clinton in Las Vegas.   CreditRuth Fremson/The New York Times

Definitely not fake Us propaganda....

#43
caltrek

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How is it that I knew these sort of stories were going to start to crop up when I first started this thread.

 

Oh what a tangled web we weave when fist we sought to deceive by stealing the 2000 election n Florida. Now nobody trusts the process, the Republicans, or even the Democrats.

 

 

Congressional Democrats Call on FBI To Investigate Their Political Adversaries' Kremlin Ties

 

https://theintercept...s-kremlin-ties/

 

 

 

 

LEADING HOUSE DEMOCRATS on Tuesday sent a letter to FBI Director James Comey, which they promptly published, asking the agency to investigate whether the Trump campaign and the Russian government have entered into a joint plot “to interfere with the U.S. presidential election.” Although the House Democrats say they do not know whether such a conspiracy with Moscow exists, they say that “serious questions have been raised” — specifically about whether Trump supporters worked in tandem with Kremlin agents to hack Democratic Party computer systems, and “about overt and covert actions by Trump campaign officials on behalf of Russian interests.”

 

As grounds for their suspicions, these top Democrats cite certain associations between Trump advisers and various Russians, suspicious visits by them to Moscow, and statements Trump supporters made that are critical of the United States of America or advocate better relations with Moscow. These statements and policy views, these top Democrats suggest, demonstrate possible disloyalty to the United States, which should be investigated.

 

For instance, “one of Donald Trump’s foreign policy advisers, Carter Page, traveled to Moscow to give a speech that was harshly critical of the United States and its ‘hypocritical focus on ideas such as democratization, inequality, corruption, and regime change.’” The top Democrats also note that another Trump adviser, retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, “traveled to Moscow in December 2015 and joined Vladimir Putin at the head table during a dinner honoring the Kremlin-backed media network RT,” and then “gave a speech that was highly critical of the United States” (the House Democrats do not mention that Gen. Flynn was appointed by President Obama in 2012 to head the Defense Intelligence Agency, and they are cryptic about whether they believe the general is a full-scale Russian operative or merely an unwitting Useful Idiot).

 

 

The calls by congressional Democrats for an FBI investigation into possible Moscow-engineered subversiveness on American soil come as various Clinton supporters are calling for increased confrontation with Russia. President Obama’s former Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul yesterday said “the Obama administration will need to respond” if Russians were involved in hacking state election centers, while the managing editor of a popular liberal blog announced that once the election is over, “let’s kick some ass on that front” — meaning Russia. Meanwhile, Democratic pundits are increasingly signaling to Americans that they should distrust the legitimacy and reliability of their democratic elections if Hillary loses because it will likely mean that Putin manipulated the votes by hacking to help Trump.

 

demletter.png

 

The next Cold War - cyber edition - coming to a neighborhood near you.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#44
BasilBerylium

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Well the discussion in this thread speaks for itself



#45
caltrek

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Barack Obama's Ongoing Accommodation of Vladimir Putin

 

https://theintercept...vladimir-putin/

 

Extract:

 

 …“improved relations with the Kremlin” was a long-time plank of the Democratic Party, which, as a result, was routinely vilified by the American Right as Kremlin agents and sympathizers (as were Republicans such as Nixon and Reagan when they sought better ties with Moscow). But the most glaring irony of all is that as Clinton-led Democrats this year equate overtures toward Russia as evidence of Putin-loving disloyalty — whether it be Trump’s opposition to arming Ukraine or his heretical questioning of NATO — there is an American politician who has, time and again, accommodated Putin, sought to improve relations with Moscow, dismissed as fearmongering the threat Russia poses to the U.S., and repeatedly taken steps that benefited Russian interests.

 

That politician’s name is Barack Obama. As Trevor Timm wrote yesterday in The Guardian, “Barack Obama seems to be the only politician not playing into the cold war 2.0 hysteria.” Indeed, Obama has continually acted in accord with Russia’s agenda and sought to pour cold water on attempts to revive Cold War rhetoric and policies.

 

Earlier last year, U.S. intelligence agencies claimed to have evidence that Russia was making increasingly aggressive military incursions into Ukraine, including with tanks and artillery. Leading foreign policy experts in both parties — including Madeleine Albright, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and Obama’s own Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin E. Dempsey — united to pressure President Obama to send arms to Kiev to ward off what they viewed as Russian aggression. But Obama steadfastly refused. Obama’s recalcitrance became so entrenched that a bipartisan alliance in Congress emerged to introduce legislation to force him to provide lethal aid….

 

While Hillary Clinton and others advocated imposition of a “no-fly zone” to stop the Russians, Obama did nothing. To the contrary, Obama — who himself has spent two years bombing the anti-Assad fighters in Syria whom the U.S. government regards as terrorists (killing many civilians in the process) — is now actively forging a partnership with Putin whereby Russia and the U.S. would jointly bomb agreed-upon targets in Syria (ones opposed to Assad)….

 

Then there’s Obama’s total passivity in the face of accusations from Democrats and others that Putin has been actively and maliciously interfering in U.S. elections this year through hacking, disinformation, and other subversive measures….What has Obama done to punish Putin for these transgressions? By all appearances, he’s done nothing….

 

It is certainly disturbing to watch Donald Trump express admiration for Putin’s domestic authoritarianism and venerate that as “strength.” That’s a valid concern, as it reflects — by his own reckoning — what Trump is likely to do, or what he wants to do, if he becomes president. 

 

But this ongoing attempt to equate a desire for better relations with Russia with disloyalty to America, or to vilify any associations with Moscow as proof of un-American Putin sympathy, is toxic in the extreme. Beyond being dangerous and oppressive, it’s incredibly short-sighted. After all, the politician who, in reality, has most accommodated Vladimir Putin and most eagerly sought to avoid tensions with the Kremlin — up to and including trying to partner with them to bomb Syria — happens to be the one currently occupying the Oval Office: a Democrat.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#46
Dredom

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I think that the USA-Russia relations will be i better shape when Trump  gets elected. After that the 2 of the worlds most powerful nations will have strong leaders and only then they could debate on common interests, actually iv found rly interesting article with prediction of future geopolitical situation 

 

http://papug.pl/the-...-eu-in-8-items/



#47
caltrek

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^^^^Right.  

 

Any way, getting back to reality, I suppose I would have one piece of advice for the Russians.  Stop the tactical effort to influence the outcome of the presidential election.  It only makes your country look bad when the hand is caught in the cookie jar.  Hillary may be hostile to Russian interests, but don't do her the favor of justifying her hostility.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#48
PhoenixRu

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Any way, getting back to reality, I suppose I would have one piece of advice for the Russians.  Stop the tactical effort to influence the outcome of the presidential election.

 

I'm the only Russian here, so i have to reply.

 

1) I don't think Russia (exactly on state level) doing this...

2) ...unlike USA who many times roughly and shamelessly interferred in our (and not only our) election process.

3) But if i'm wrong and Russian state somehow doing this, i have no moral issues in this regard, because of item 2.

4) Hillary hates Russia and Putin personally. The worse, she represent the most hawkish and aggressive wing of US elite. We can not change it, no matter what we do.


  • Recyvuym and As We Rise like this

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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#49
As We Rise

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Any way, getting back to reality, I suppose I would have one piece of advice for the Russians.  Stop the tactical effort to influence the outcome of the presidential election.

 

I'm the only Russian here, so i have to reply.

 

Unfortunately, I'm only Russian by citizenship.  :crying:


Let us all come together and help save the world, one tree at a time.


#50
Recyvuym

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I think the big war is inevitable. Maybe not this year, maybe not even the next year, but already inevitable. I'm not so naive to wait any "love" or "respect" towards Russia from westerners, the much bigger problem is that they are no longer afraid of "obstacles". 

 

PS Military exersized has long ago became a routine, but few days ago there was also a serie of "stress tests" for administrative and financial system to check their work in the state of war... the last preparations to mrs.Clinton presidency, i think.

 

A near-term major power war is all but inevitable. But not with Russia.

 

All signs point to the conflict being China and North Korea vs Taiwan, Japan, the US, Australia and parts of ASEAN. In such an event, it is far more to Russia's benefit to simply supply the Chinese and North Korea with vicarious aid. This way, Russia doesn't get directly involved in the costly and extremely dangerous theatre, and they get to reap all sorts of benefits from it.

 

The US, on the other hand, won't want to fight its two biggest enemies at once, so they will have to choose between China and Russia. The question is, where do they stand to gain more, and also, where do they stand to lose more? China's nuclear arsenal is negligible compared to Russia's, and its terrain is far more manageable. The drop in trade would also affect China far worse than it would hit anyone else. They also have every reason to go for China now rather than later, because while Russia is fortifying its defensive capabilities, China is doubling its military spending in the next four years. The reports I've read from the Departmnet of Defence indicate that by 2025, the Chinese military will be in a position to give its adversaries much more than just a bloody nose. So they have every reason to choose the waking dragon rather than the cornered bear.

 

Finally, Jinping himself seems to want war. The South China Sea, the aggression towards Taiwan, and the rhetoric of a new Chinese century to end the century of humiliation... this is all in stark contrast to Putin, who is saying, look, we don't want war, but you're backing us into a corner here...

 

So yes war is coming but the Chinese theatre will be just another proxy conflict for Russia. Putin fortunately has the means to avoid a world war, so if Russia gets directly involved, it'll be his failure. He's prudent, and I don't believe he will trigger it, nor will the other side (much as they appear to want to).

 

The proto-Cold War / Hybrid War state between the US and Russia right now will probably continue for a long time, perhaps decades. China will be but one proxy theatre. I take comfort in this, I think you should too. War with China will be far less devastating overall, though my own country stands at significant risk of interference, invasion, or even a nuclear attack... which is why I'm planning to leave well before shit hits the fan.


I loudly predicted the second wave of the Global Financial Crisis would begin by the 31st of March 2017. But I was wrong! Observe my well-deserved public humiliation here, here and here. Let this be a warning to all of you who try to guess the future. Yes, that means you, reading this now! Put that prediction back in your pocket! Do it now, before it's too late! (Also check out my userpage, it's even funnier.)


#51
Recyvuym

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Any way, getting back to reality, I suppose I would have one piece of advice for the Russians.  Stop the tactical effort to influence the outcome of the presidential election.  It only makes your country look bad when the hand is caught in the cookie jar.  Hillary may be hostile to Russian interests, but don't do her the favor of justifying her hostility.

 

Do you realise how hypocritical it is for America to tell other countries to stop interfering with their elections? I'm not sure there's ever been a nation in history that's fucked around with other countries' leadership so much. Not even the Soviet Union!

 

And this, right after the US tried to plant another pseudo-democratic puppet in the Ukraine?

 

America is already at war with Russia. It just isn't a hot war. The United States has already set a precedent that other countries' elections are not off the playing board here. If you don't like Putin trying to get Trump into power, I have two word for you: tough shit.

 

Pigs will fly before America achieves any semblance of self-awareness.

 

Edit, and I just wanted to add, because this isn't repeated often enough... The alleged Russian hack did nothing but reveal the truth about Hillary Clinton. It wasn't even duplicitous. Whatever Russia's intentions, the truth is they have done a favour to the American people, by making them more informed. Whereas the establishment was trying to do just the opposite, sweep the dirt under the carpet. Makes you wonder who your real enemy is, or at least, it should.


I loudly predicted the second wave of the Global Financial Crisis would begin by the 31st of March 2017. But I was wrong! Observe my well-deserved public humiliation here, here and here. Let this be a warning to all of you who try to guess the future. Yes, that means you, reading this now! Put that prediction back in your pocket! Do it now, before it's too late! (Also check out my userpage, it's even funnier.)


#52
Recyvuym

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Also caltrek, sorry if that came off a bit harsh. It was more a refutation of the general narrative I'm sick of hearing around Russia.


I loudly predicted the second wave of the Global Financial Crisis would begin by the 31st of March 2017. But I was wrong! Observe my well-deserved public humiliation here, here and here. Let this be a warning to all of you who try to guess the future. Yes, that means you, reading this now! Put that prediction back in your pocket! Do it now, before it's too late! (Also check out my userpage, it's even funnier.)


#53
PhoenixRu

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Do you realise how hypocritical it is for America to tell other countries to stop interfering with their elections?

 

Yes, exactly. If it was said by someone else... but USA  :o

 

Meanwhile, the US-Russian relations continue to deteriorate (faster than i initially thought). During few last days:

 

1) Russia has suspended its uranium agreement. Theoretically, the deal may be restored, but only after USA will stop the anti-Russian sanctions and compensate all the damage from them.

 

2) USA officially stopped all the cooperation with Russia in Syria AND accused this same Russia in "rejected diplomacy"... why i'm not even surprised?

 

3) Russia plans to stop selling the РД-180 space engines to USA... I think this should has been done long ago. Besides, everyone knows Russia is not even a country, just a gas station, what kind of "engines" can we produce? While USA is currently blessed by great genius Elon Musk, he will easily replace the rusty and outdated Russian stuff... isn't it?  :biggrin:


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#54
caltrek

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From the Vice Presidential candidate (Mike Pence) of the ticket that is considered to be friendly to Russia:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...2016/index.html

 

 

 

"I just have to tell you that the provocations by Russia need to be met with American strength, and if Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets of the Assad regime to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis that is taking place in Aleppo," Pence said.

The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#55
caltrek

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Here is an article discussing Pence's comments:

 

 

https://www.yahoo.co...406.html?ref=gs


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#56
PhoenixRu

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"I just have to tell you that the provocations by Russia need to be met with American strength, and if Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets of the Assad regime to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis that is taking place in Aleppo," Pence said.

 

Yeah, each time when Syrian government making sucess against US-backed terrorists... oh sorry, i meant against moderate opposition and freedom fighters... the western media begin to synchronously cry and scream about "barbaric attack against innocent civillians". Here they are, the poor kids from Western media, killed by barbaric Russians but, fortunately, resurrected later:

 

Ct13LWyWYAEONg6.jpg

 

Nevertheless, this was the serious threat & this is exactly how the next war may start. Mrs.Clinton and her team are mad enough to start implement such plans. They know that Russia recently deployed in Syria the anti-air missiles & know that ISIS have no any aviation, but they're not afraid...


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#57
superexistence

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Phoenix,

 

Have you seen this article and what are your thoughts?

I personally smell bullshit and scaremongering.

 

http://www.independe...n-a7345461.html

 

Although I also heard an interesting conspiracy theory, Russia is doing this to scare the US public into voting a very pro Russian Donald Trump.



#58
PhoenixRu

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A near-term major power war is all but inevitable. But not with Russia.

 

All signs point to the conflict being China and North Korea vs Taiwan, Japan, the US, Australia and parts of ASEAN...etc

 

The US, on the other hand, won't want to fight its two biggest enemies at once... they have every reason to choose the waking dragon rather than the cornered bear.

 

Maybe you're right. But there is one serious problem with USA: mentality and worldview of their ruling elite. It seems they have no ingrained feeling of "red line" and absolutely can not imagine the motivation and possibe behavior of their enemies. I'm sure they do not want big war, but they can do it unintentionally, step by step, through chain of more and more hostile actions - "to show them our might" - with each of those actions followed by "arrogant and totally unexpected" Russian response. For example, this crazy proposal of mr.Pence (from the post of Caltrek above). As for Russian weapon and nukes, US elite are not afraid of them for the same reason: they sincerely believe Russia will never dare to use them against divine and infallible This Country.

 

I may be wrong but Chinese elite seems politically wiser, more careful and farsighted.


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#59
PhoenixRu

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Phoenix,

 

Have you seen this article and what are your thoughts?

I personally smell bullshit and scaremongering.

 

http://www.independe...n-a7345461.html

 

Although I also heard an interesting conspiracy theory, Russia is doing this to scare the US public into voting a very pro Russian Donald Trump.

 

40 million participants? This is literally all the male adult urban population... but no, i didn't even heard about this. Though there were numerous military exercises and the same numerous discussions on our local forums "really, folk, what will we do if..." and the most common opinion was "ask for forgiveness from all whom i offended, then drink vine and listen music..."


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#60
superexistence

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Well maybe... I am actually a big fan of Putin I love his no nonsense, no bullshit attitude and the way he stands up to the US.

 

My gut is the US would never push it that far. They only start wars with countries they know they can smash and bully, I don't

think they would dare push it that far. I also think a lot of this is theatre, psychological games both nations play with one another

when neither has the ultimate intention of doing anything.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: United States, Russia, Vladimir Putin, Hillary Clinton, International diplomacy

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