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Germany Watch Thread

Germany Angela Merkel European Union Austerity Neo-Nazi Christian Democrat Social Democratic Party

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#61
Yuli Ban

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Did Europeans flee to Africa and the Middle East after WW1 or WW2? No.


No, obviously not. They came to America. And what resulted was a period of extreme anti-immigrant beliefs. One of the largest nativist movements in history took place in America after WWI.


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#62
PhoenixRu

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Conclusions about fascist element in the  AfD were based in part on statements about pride in its military achievements of World War II and urging a  “'U-turn' in how Germany’s Nazi past is remembered."  "U-turn" sounds like a 180 degree change from condemnation to embrace to me.

 

While i, of course, don't like this "U-turn" i can easily understand how and why this happened. Regret about dark past is good, yes... but imposed and forced regret is a very risky thing. You can not demand from a proud person (or nation) to publicly repent and apologize again and again, during many years (or generations). Sooner or later there will be reaction.

 

The same has happened to young and naive democratic Russia emerged in 1991: there were a lot of arrogant demands from anyone and everyone, adressed to "country with criminal past and people with slavish mentality" which should "regret and pay, regret and pay..." to be allowed to join the "civilized world". Some of them were even satisfied that immediately provoked the new stream of demands... so, yes, i fully understand what modern Germans feel. They're just sick of endless self-flagellation and wish to "feel that Germany is great again". But this is still doesn't make them nazis.


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"And the Russian land, let God keep it! Under heavens, there is no other land like this. And although Russian nobles are not righteous neither kind, let God arrange the Russian land and give us enough justice" - Afanasy Nikitin, medieval traveler of XV century.


#63
caltrek

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^^^^That I would defend the right of free speech does not mean that I have to agree with what is said. Moreover, fascists are hardly folks that one can depend upon to respect the right of free speech.  

 

At any rate, my point was that the AfD had disturbing elements of Nazi support within its ranks.  Along these lines, I would also remind you of this passage from

the article cited in the opening post to this thread:

 

 

This follows revelations published by Stern magazine just last year in March that the head of AfD-Saarland, chairman Josef Dörr, was using WhatsApp messenger and his email to collaborate with locally known and active neo-Nazi leaders in his state. The local faction leader working for Dörr, AfD co-deputy Lutz Hecker, was also found corresponding with local Saarland neo-Nazis.

 

Most shockingly, however, both Dörr and Hecker were actively recruiting members from rank-and-file supporters of various Saarland neo-Nazi groups into their own local AfD faction. This included supporters traditionally voting for the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) party in German elections. Saarland AfD party leaders gained access to active neo-Nazis in the area after lobbying their appeals to local neo-Nazi organizers, such as senior NPD party member Sascha Wagner and a prominent public hate speech artist Ulrike Reinhardt

 

Now, it does seem that this embrace of neo-Nazi elements is by a faction within the AfD. So, we may be talking about a faction with a political party that itself does not represent the main stream of political opinion within Germany. While 13% may be an historic high for this party, it is still well short of a majority. Nor does Merkel seem inclined to welcome this party into a governing coalition, despite her conservative nature. 

 

As pointed out by others in this thread, Germans have much to feel proud about.  "Military achievements of World War II" is not one of them. 

 

At any rate, I am glad that we agree that the "U-turn" is not a development to be liked. 

 

You may have a point regarding being "sick of endless self-flagellation".  As a German acquaintance of mine visiting our neighbor once remarked in exasperation to me, "I was not even born when Hitler was alive."  Still, that individual held some relatively progressive views concerning the world.  So one can resent expectations of "endless self-flagellation" and still firmly and decisively reject reactionary policy positions. I remain hopeful that most Germans will continue to do just that, and do not want to see any further gains by the AfD within the German political system.  


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#64
bgates276

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Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that a former Goldman Sachs economist is leading a nationalist party? About as odd, in my mind, as George Soros working for the Nazi's in his younger days (yes, it's true, look it up). Things are definitely not as they seem and I'm trying to make sense of it all.



#65
caltrek

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look it up

 

Ok.

 

Was George Soros an SS Officer or Nazi Collaborator During World War II?

 

http://www.snopes.com/george-soros-ss-nazi-germany/

 

 

 

CLAIM

During World War II, George Soros was a member of the SS (a Nazi paramilitary organization) or a Nazi collaborator who helped confiscate property from Jews.

RATING
det-red.gif FALSE
ORIGIN

As a prominent political activist and supporter of left-wing causes, Hungarian-born billionaire financier George Soros has frequently been the target of smear campaigns, none more odious than the persistent — and false — claim that Soros, a Jew, was a Nazi sympathizer, collaborator, and/or paramilitary officer during World War II.

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that a former Goldman Sachs economist is leading a nationalist party? About as odd, in my mind, as George Soros working for the Nazi's in his younger days (yes, it's true a false rumor, look it up). Things are definitely not as they seem and I'm trying to make sense of it all

 

 

Ok. Fixed it.

 

P.S. Were it not for the fact that Soros is a public figure, bgates276 would be guilty of libel for spreading this rumor and representing it as fact.  At least if my source is to be believed.  

 

Wonder why I am so angry all the time?

 

This false news crap is why.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#66
caltrek

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Oh, I almost forgot.  Putin was probably behind that rumor, so all is forgiven. /sarcasm


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#67
bgates276

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How do you know your sources arn't fake news? Seems to me, I remember the likes of CNN having the audacity to call others fake news. Oh btw, I hope you are joking about the libel thing. I'm no one important, but your threats are rather alarmist and come off as scare tactics. Oh btw, the big red X was also a nice touch, but it doesn't make your argument any stronger. 

 

Watch this video: 

 

It's only a couple of minutes. Soros admits he aided the Nazi's by confiscating property from Jews. 

 

Maybe you should take back the legal threats before you look silly. Oops, too late.



#68
caltrek

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How do you know your sources arn't fake news?

 

 

I don't. That is why I put the qualifier in about assuming my sources were correct.

 

 

 

Seems to me, I remember the likes of CNN having the audacity to call others fake news

 

That is because the other often did (and still do) produce fake news.

 

 

 

 Oh btw, I hope you are joking about the libel thing.

 

 

Nope, no joke.  Of course it again depends upon whether my source was correct or not.

 

 

 

I'm no one important, but your threats are rather alarmist and come off as scare tactics

 

 

I am very alarmed, and even a little bit scared at this point.  Especially in regards to the idea of having trump as our president.  Not so much about whether Soros has been lied about.

 

 

Oh btw, the big red X was also a nice touch, but it doesn't make your argument any stronger. 

 

 

Well, the big red X was from my source...so I can't claim credit for that.

 

 

Maybe you should take back the legal threats before you look silly. Oops, too late.

 

 

 

I made no legal threats.  I indicated you were protected because Soros is a public figure.  So you are the one who is now looking silly.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#69
caltrek

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Soros was fourteen years old threatened by evil.  You seem willing to embrace evil without  even being under threat. I presume you are an adult.  So, I don't give a shit what else Soros "confessed to."  Even the video that you cite shows that you accused Soros out of context.  Failing to mention his age for example, or his explanation for why he "had no sense of guilt."   What disturbs me is that you also seem to have "no sense of guilt."  

 

Sorry to get personal, but it was you who begin this exchange with a personal insult to George Soros.

 

Also, btw, in the video he does not admit to "confiscating property."   He admits to watching while other people had their property being confiscated.  That is a huge difference.  Still, I suppose if you hate Soros, the difference becomes trivial.  Shame on you.


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The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#70
Alislaws

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Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that a former Goldman Sachs economist is leading a nationalist party? About as odd, in my mind, as George Soros working for the Nazi's in his younger days (yes, it's true, look it up). Things are definitely not as they seem and I'm trying to make sense of it all.

 

Don't they have a bunch of ex Goldman Sachs people high up in the trump administration? Or did they get fired?

 

Seems like the idea that working for Goldman Sachs makes you unlikely to work for a right wing/nationalist organisation doesn't hold.



#71
Yuli Ban

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The only people who seriously claimed that working for a multinational megabank would automatically mean you're against right-wing nationalism were right-wing nationalists. Literally everyone else was screaming at them that they were being duped.

I mean, remember National SOCIALISM? As rightists keep trying to convince me when it's convenient to completely ignore the völkisch social movement? They fashioned themselves as opposed to internationalist capitalism to draw in actual socialists who were on the fence (sound familiar?). The only thing they did was remove the Jews in their jurisdiction; they didn't dismantle the banks, nor did they try to subvert multinational banking. 


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#72
caltrek

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It is not just the alt right that is highly active in Gemany today.

 

Mass Civil Disobedience Campaign Obstructs One of Europe’s Largest Polluters

 

http://peaceworker.o...gest-polluters/

 

Introduction:

 

Red and yellow circus tents rose over the Rhineland farmland of western Germany last weekend, as over 6,000 climate justice activists converged for a series of action days to protest coal mining in the region. This included a mass civil disobedience campaign called Ende Gelände (or Here and No Further), in which 3,000 participants illegally obstructed the coal mining infrastructure on Friday and Saturday.

 

Carrying bags of straw to protect against police batons, and accompanied by a brass marching band along with the occasional clown, activists fanned out in teams across the fields surrounding the Tagebau Garzweiler lignite coal mine and the Neurath power plant. One group entered the mine itself, while others lay on the railroad tracks to stage a blockade, preventing coal trains from delivering coal to the power plant. The mine and four main power plants in the area are operated by the German utility giant RWE, and the lignite mine is one of the largest sources of carbon emissions in Europe.

 

Participants were organized into 10 action groups, called “fingers,” each of which had planned their strategy ahead of time and deliberated in democratic assemblies to decide on a course of action. Within each finger, activists divided themselves into smaller affinity groups to discuss how far they were willing to go in the case of police confrontation and to keep track of each other during the actions.

 

On Friday alone, activists blocked the train tracks for nine hours, including trains delivering coal from the nearby Hambach mine, causing the Neurath plant to reduce its operations by 37 percent. Other independent actions complemented Ende Gelände, including a group of bicyclists who disrupted traffic by riding in a “critical mass” formation and a group of rock climbers called “Robin Wood,” who swung down from bridges passing over the railroad tracks. In one act near Hambach forest, the environmental organization Friends of the Earth organized a human chain of 3,000 people to create a symbolic “red line” against coal mining.

 

Charlie, a self-proclaimed anarchist who asked not to be identified by his full name, said the railroad blockade was his first time participating in an act of civil disobedience. “I was so psyched, so tense,” he recalled.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#73
caltrek

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Facebook Allowed Questionable Ads in German Election Despite Warnings

 

https://www.propubli...espite-warnings

 

Introduction:

 

On Sept. 15, nine days before the elections in Germany, the Green party complained to Facebook about a popular series of attack ads deriding its stances on gender-neutral bathrooms, electric cars and other topics. The party accused the advertiser, Greenwatch, of providing false contact information on its Facebook page and blog, which would violate a German Media Authority regulation requiring accurate contact information.

 

But Facebook didn’t take down the ads or trace their origins. And after the election, Greenwatch disappeared. Its website and Facebook page were deleted, leaving behind only the nine Greenwatch ads that were captured by ProPublica’s Political Ad Collector, a tool that enables Facebook users to collect political ads that target them.

 

The Greenwatch episode illustrates that ads of dubious provenance aren’t just aimed at Facebook users in the U.S., but in Europe as well. Facebook’s failure to confront the advertiser — despite repeated complaints — raises questions about whether and how the world’s largest social network will deliver on its promise to monitor political advertising aggressively on its platform.

 

Facebook vowed to step up enforcement of political ads in the wake of news that it allowed Russian advertisers to buy politically divisive ads during the 2016 U.S. presidential election, and other advertisers to direct ads to “Jew haters” and similar anti-Semitic groups.

 

After being contacted by ProPublica, Facebook removed several anti-Semitic ad categories and promised to improve monitoring.

 

“I expect from a company that makes a lot of money from advertisement that they control who is placing those ads,“ said Emily Büning, the Green party’s executive secretary. “Whoever spreads propaganda with substantial funding has to be identifiable. Whose opinion it is should be transparent.”

20171018-german-facebook-ads-3x2.jpg

Election posters for Germay's Left Party and Alliance 90/The Greens on display in Berlin, Germany on Sept. 21 

(Emmanuele Contini/NurPhoto via Getty Images)


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#74
caltrek

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EU Court Adviser Cracks Whip on German Religious Employers

 

 

https://www.courthou...ious-employers/

 

Introduction:

 

(Courthouse News) – An adviser to Europe’s highest court offered recommendations Thursday for adjudicating employment-discrimination claims against a church-run charity.

 

Vera Egenberger brought her job application in late 2012 for a post that would last 18 months, preparing a report on Germany’s compliance with the United Nations International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

 

Despite her many years of experience in this field, having written a range of relevant publications, Egenberger is not religious and saw this as the reason why the employer, an affiliate of the Protestant Church in Germany, did not hire her.

 

Indeed the application said explicitly, as quoted in the opinion Thursday: “We require membership of a Protestant church, or of a church which is a member of the Arbeitsgemeinschaft Christlicher Kirchen in Deutschland (Cooperative of Christian Churches in Germany), and identification with the welfare mission. Please state your membership in your curriculum vitae.”

 

Germany’s Labour Court found that Egenberger suffered discrimination, but the Federal Employment Court invited the European Court of Justice to weigh in, voicing uncertainty about the correct interpretation of EU law.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#75
Sciencerocks

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Germany: coalition talks fail
https://www.theguard...e-angela-merkel

I hope this is not the end of the road for Merkel, but it might be. The only feasible coalition with at least 50% of Bundestag seats needs to include the "libertarian" free-market-believers (?) ("marktliberal" in German) FDP, but the FDP refuses to work with the Green party, because the FDP wants us to keep on burning a lot of coal, and they refuse to take in as many refugees as the Green party insists on.

Now there are 2 options left:
- Coalition with less than 50% of seats, that needs to find support from other MPs for every bill – possibly including AFD (alt-right) MPs
- Repeat the election

I'm afraid this might help the AFD. Because of them there is no majority for any "traditional" coalition like CDU/CSU/FDP (conservative coalition) or SPD/Green Party(/Linke?) (liberal coalition).


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#76
caltrek

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Personally, I would love to see a Green Party/Social Democratic Party/Free Democratic Party  coalition take over in Germany.  We are still a ways from such an outcome with other possibilities - such as Merkel stepping down as Chancellor as part of a deal to keep the Christian Democrats in power.

 

My main beef with Merkel is her hard line so-called "austerity" measures.  While arguably beneficial to German interests, particularly the banking sector, they have been a disaster for the European Union.  At least, that is my impression.


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The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#77
caltrek

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German police and protesters clash as far-right AfD elects leader

 

https://www.theguard...d-elects-leader

 

Introduction:

 

(The Guardian) The nationalist wing of the German anti-immigration party Alternative für Deutschland has been strengthened and moderate forces sidelined at a party conference marked by protests this weekend.

 

Several people were reportedly hurt in clashes between protesters and police in the city of Hanover on Saturday as the AfD congress chose Alexander Gauland to return to the co-leader post he had held until 2015. Gauland opposes the expulsion of Björn Höcke, an AfD member who said history should be rewritten to focus on German victims of the second world war.

 

Gauland replaces Frauke Petry, who quit to become an independent member of parliament.

 

Her sudden departure two days after the AfD became the first far-right party to win seats in the Bundestag since the 1950s exposed rifts over whether the party should ditch rhetoric such as statements saying Islam was not compatible with the German constitution.

 

Outside the conference centre, thousands of anti-AfD protesters marched carrying placards reading “Hanover against Nazis” and “Stand up to racism”.

4700.jpg?w=300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&f

Several people were reportedly hurt during a protest against the AfD convention.

Photograph: Filip Singer/EPA


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#78
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Conditions for German government are United States of Europe by 2025
brian wang | December 8, 2017 |
1Save

 

Germany’s Social Democratic party has put out a list of demands if they are to form a coalition government with Angela Merkel.

Martin Schulz called for

1. the creation of a “United States of Europe” by 2025
2. a more robust social security net
3. a phasing out of coal power

Schulz wants EU member states to sign off on a “constitutional treaty” that committed the bloc to take steps towards a federal Europe – a proposal likely to be met with some resistance from Merkel and other EU leaders. Those countries that do not approve the constitution would be kicked out of the EU.

 

https://www.nextbigf...pe-by-2025.html


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#79
Sciencerocks

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Conditions for German government are United States of Europe by 2025
brian wang | December 8, 2017 |
1Save

 

Germany’s Social Democratic party has put out a list of demands if they are to form a coalition government with Angela Merkel.

Martin Schulz called for

1. the creation of a “United States of Europe” by 2025
2. a more robust social security net
3. a phasing out of coal power

Schulz wants EU member states to sign off on a “constitutional treaty” that committed the bloc to take steps towards a federal Europe – a proposal likely to be met with some resistance from Merkel and other EU leaders. Those countries that do not approve the constitution would be kicked out of the EU.

 

https://www.nextbigf...pe-by-2025.html


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#80
Maximus

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Conditions for German government are United States of Europe by 2025
 

...

 


Schulz wants EU member states to sign off on a “constitutional treaty” that committed the bloc to take steps towards a federal Europe – a proposal likely to be met with some resistance from Merkel and other EU leaders. Those countries that do not approve the constitution would be kicked out of the EU.

 

well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg


If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done. -Peter Ustinov
 





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