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Saudi Arabia's modernisation revolution


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38 replies to this topic

#1
Nick1984

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So it looks like he Saudi heir to the throne has some BIG plans to modernise the country's economy and culture.

Bye bye Wihhabi extremists, hello Western pop culture
http://www.dailymail...rate-Islam.html

Women finally allowed to drive
https://www.theguard...-women-to-drive

Out with he burqas, in with the bikinis
http://www.telegraph...n-wear-bikinis/
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#2
BasilBerylium

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Anyone else feel another civil war approaching?



#3
Jakob

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MSAGA


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#4
Nick1984

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Anyone else feel another civil war approaching?


There's been a recent crackdown on dissent including widespread arrests of senior Islamist clerics. Seems like the country's new direction isn't going down well with religious conservatives.

https://www.theguard...mmed-bin-salman

#5
Jakob

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Speaking of which...

 

Saudi Arabia will build $500 billion high tech megacity called NEOM

 

Saudi Arabia will build a megacity called “NEOM,” will operate independently from the “existing governmental framework” with investors consulted at every step during development. The project will be backed by more than $500 billion from the Saudi government, its sovereign wealth fund and local and international investors, according to a statement released on Tuesday at an international business conference in Riyadh.

Prince Mohammed bin Salman wants to prepare Saudi Arabia for the post-oil era. In less than two years, Salman has revealed plans to sell a stake in oil giant Saudi Aramco and create the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund, and has ended a long-standing ban on female drivers.

NEOM will be an independent economic zone with its own laws, taxes and regulations.


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#6
Sciencerocks

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Anyone else feel another civil war approaching?


There's been a recent crackdown on dissent including widespread arrests of senior Islamist clerics. Seems like the country's new direction isn't going down well with religious conservatives.

https://www.theguard...mmed-bin-salman

 

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the religious conservatives win just like what happened in the United states in Nov 2016. Freedom seems to be a bad thing when it gets in the way of ones religion.


To follow my work on tropical cyclones


#7
Alislaws

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Anyone else feel another civil war approaching?

 

Well, then we'd have a situation of Islamic extremists targeting the Saudi Govt. which would have a certain irony to it. 

 

 

Saudi Arabia will build $500 billion high tech megacity called NEOM

I've been waiting for this for a long time! If they don't mess it up, and build the city to use modern tech throughout, the productivity per person and the efficiency will be insanely high by normal city standards.

 

If that happens it should force other nations to start building similar cities from scratch, or spending billions overhauling existing cities in order to stay competetive.


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#8
MarcZ

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Feels like the prince is treading on dangerous territory here. I'm sure the religious establishment and conservatives will object. Not only that but he isn't actually changing the nature of the government to become more transparent so he may choose to repress the dissidents. Reminds me of the Shah of Iran and is attempted Westernization of the country before the Islamic revolution in 1979. We will see about this...



#9
Frizz

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This won't end well for the saudi establishment, giving the commoners a taste of freedom, compounded by the backlash from the ultra conservatives amongst the regime is the perfect recipe for revolution.

It'sno wonder why the CIA appointed this new heir.
“Give me time and I’ll give you a revolution.”
- Alexander McQueen

#10
Guyverman1990

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Another possibility that could happen is an Order 66 of conservative clerics as a means to help the country modernize.

#11
Infinite

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I think this is only the start of Saudi Arabia's shift to Americanism. Globalization is inevitable though isn't it...

Frizz holds a great point though. Liberty is deeply satisfying and once the general population get a taste for it, it will be hard to backtrack.

Revolution though? I don't think so. I predict a more gradual but unstopable move towards western culture through the next 30 maybe 40 years. It might even result in a hybrid Americanist-Islamic society where comprises are made from both sides to reach a viable outcome.

Is minic an fhírinne searbh.


#12
Yuli Ban

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Who's to say it'll be American society that dominates?

 

Who's to say something won't happen that will lead to a "Red Shift" in pop culture (if you know what I'm saying)?


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#13
Infinite

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Who's to say it'll be American society that dominates?

Who's to say something won't happen that will lead to a "Red Shift" in pop culture (if you know what I'm saying)?

Because China has already become Americanized. If China ever did have the most influence on society, it would just be a twisted but still similar version of what the USA propagated through the world after the cold war.

Globalization is inevitable now, and it is the American way of life that dominates this change.

Is minic an fhírinne searbh.


#14
TranscendingGod

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Who's to say it'll be American society that dominates?

Who's to say something won't happen that will lead to a "Red Shift" in pop culture (if you know what I'm saying)?

Because China has already become Americanized. If China ever did have the most influence on society, it would just be a twisted but still similar version of what the USA propagated through the world after the cold war.

Globalization is inevitable now, and it is the American way of life that dominates this change.

 

China has already become Americanized? In what sense? Are you saying that there is only one flavor of modernity so to speak? Are you saying that wealth and shiny new buildings can only be synonymous with americanism? Are yous saying that because there are Mcdonalds in China that it has become "Americanized".

 

China has certainly been influenced by western culture as any society is influenced by the hegemon but even taking an example like fast food we see that Chinese cuisine has been far from discarded but rather it has retained its prominence among the chinese. Modernity is not defined by the simple wealth accrued by a country which is manifest in obviously similar ways but rather in those nuances that you so nonchalantly disregard in your statement. 

 

The Chinese zeitgeist is different in innumerable important ways from the americans all the way from the poor farmer and his rice paddies to the leaders of the communist party. At every step we find distinguishing differences in the dress, ethics, cuisine, politics, and whatever else you can think of. I recommend you read Jacques "When China Rules the World" as he meticulously combs through the differences in the modernity which China is presenting us and the very real influence that they will hold on the world. 

 

We cannot even say that the American hegemon is simply a rehash of the British hegemon and yet you expect us to believe that such is the case with the civilization that is China? China with its rich, diverse history? China with a historical perspective far removed from the ephemeral view of we Americans? China with its distinct Confucian set of ethical guidelines? 
 

Nonsense. 


The growth of computation is doubly exponential growth. 


#15
Erowind

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The British zeitgeist was liberal capitalistic empire, the American Zeitgeist is liberal capitalistic corporate empire and the Chinese zeitgeist will be liberal capitalistic globalism or maybe authoritarian capitalistic globalism. Notice they are all capitalistic in nature, Chinese rule won't be so different, you're arguing about differences within the same ideology which are pointless. Real differences come from different ideologies entirely. Look at the differences between liberalism and fascism or between anarchism and archism.


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#16
TranscendingGod

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The British zeitgeist was liberal capitalistic empire, the American Zeitgeist is liberal capitalistic corporate empire and the Chinese zeitgeist will be liberal capitalistic globalism or maybe authoritarian capitalistic globalism. Notice they are all capitalistic in nature, Chinese rule won't be so different, you're arguing about differences within the same ideology which are pointless. Real differences come from different ideologies entirely. Look at the differences between liberalism and fascism or between anarchism and archism.

Yet China's capitalism is very different from the American kind of capitalism or the British kind. Arguing about differences within the same ideology is pointless? Goodness gracious i've not noticed the futility of political science or history until your wise words enlightened me. Also I very much appreciate this ambiguous line in the sand you draw for "real differences" only existing between ideologies. I always thought it quite interesting that in practice a lot of these ideologies are more continuums than things which have a clear demarcation. I always found that in fact the zeitgeist is really a melding of all these different things with microcosms exerting different levels of influence at one time or another.

 

Of course I never imagined that things were so simplistic and that none of these things were "real differences". After all there is no fully capitalist, socialist, communist, or whatever other 'ist' you wish to name and these differences have led to the collapse of many a nation state and yet all along these differences have not been real differences considering the clear boundaries you have set up. 

 

 Damn why can't I help being so sardonic. Don't take it personally Erowind. I talk like this to most people as you could probably already tell from my previous response to Infinite. 


The growth of computation is doubly exponential growth. 


#17
BasilBerylium

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Damn why can't I help being so sardonic. Don't take it personally Erowind. I talk like this to most people as you could probably already tell from my previous response to Infinite. 

All the forum already knows this.



#18
BasilBerylium

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You are not the only one, sometimes I comment in a rude way.



#19
Erowind

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.

.

 

 

I'll define then, because while I was ambiguous I am not arbitrary. The reason I find discourse about different types of the same ideology pointless is precisely because there are other ideologies entirely and arguing about what variations on what one ideology might accomplish doesn't yield change, and change is my aim. For example, all capitalism is inherently exploitative, all capitalist societies have relied on a large pool of unemployed people and slave labour--yes even modern ones--to function. If someone like me wants to challenge that paradigm arguing about variations of capitalism won't yield anything, it's pointless. The same applies to state socialism which is also inherently exploitative for different reasons. At every opportunity I try to pull people back into the meta conversation going on because I want them to stop paying attention to the minutia of a given ideology.

 

Imagine this, there is a child taking a tour of a geology exhibit in a museum. She becomes filled with wonder at all the different shapes, colours and properties of these gems. Then she notices that all her peers are spending time in a corner carefully debating the qualities of all the yellow gems. When she approaches them to ask why they're not exploring all the other gems in the exhibit, they tell her that the other gems don't matter. They must talk about the big differences in the yellow gems because the yellow gems are the most prominent gems in the exhibit and as such the most important to debate about.

 

So to me, there are no differences between the various versions of capitalism that dominant empires have endorsed over the course of history. It's all got to go, burn it to the ground.


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#20
TranscendingGod

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Ah, you're right. I always get those two words mixed up. Ambiguous and arbitrary. Anyways there are differences it is just that there is not the difference that you wish to see. However in order not to digress too much it would be prudent to suggest that the demarcation Infinite wanted to create was not predicated on your narrow definition of "differences". I assume we can agree on that? 


The growth of computation is doubly exponential growth. 





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