34 replies to this topic

[MarcZ]

I folks I don't know if anyone on this board has been paying really close attention to the events leading up to the Greek election but there is one party that is been concerning a lot of people, the neo-fascist Golden Dawn, see this link. These people are basically polling anywhere between 4 and 10% which would be a huge increase considering they polled something like 0.23% in the last election, and want to put mines on the borders, arrest all immigrants legal and illegal and put them in work camps where they will be denied food if they don't work (work them to death Holocaust style), they want to withdraw from the EU (probably a good thing), and probably would be able to get Greece kicked out of NATO involuntarily, due to their treatment of immigrants. Here's our first great intro video lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cevalqf5o1Q&feature=related

What is particularly concerning is that it is quite likely after Sunday's election that a new election will be called soon after as there is so much disagreements among parties and so many parties that no coalition is likely to form unless a miracle happens for PASOK and New Democracy which is unlikely considering those two parties are blame for the crisis. It is likely they stand to gain even more during ensuing political chaos and potentially with the other far-right parties in Greece form Europe's first fascist government in decades. (this is a bit more far fetched, but not inconceivable)

Being the ever curious sun of a gun that I am I investigated the group a little further and found a Youtube Channel which seems to go beyond the thresholds of Greek nationalism and seems to be aimed at revolt against immigrants across all of Europe. See the following video (cleverly strung together with your favorite Hollywood blockbusters...):

I know the timeline predicts the eventual Islamification of Europe, and this seems to be following the prediction, however the violence is getting pretty unprecedented pretty fast. I think the real wake-up to the world of the rise of the far-right in Europe was the Norway attacks that occurred last year. How fast do you guys think the far-right is going to rise in Europe? Is it possible that we could see a revival of racist and supremacist politics and even neo-fascist governments in Europe this decade? Will the Golden Dawn cause spread beyond Greece to Spain and Italy due to their economic malaise as well? Could the spread even make its way to the rest of the western nations like America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in the farther future depending on their immigration policies? Is this the beginning of a major clash of civilizations, or a continuation of it if you consider the War on Terror and 9/11 the start?

All thoughts are welcome. We are heading for a historic night in Europe on Sunday with the French election, and perhaps more importantly... the Greek one...

Edited by MarcZ, 04 May 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[Alric]

It really isn't surprising, and I would say there is a good deal of people like that already in the US. Is is tried and true method in history to blame problems on the foreigners, so it is perhaps to be expected. I would like to believe people are far more educated in today's world, and so most people will not fall for it, and I think that will generally be the case. It is perhaps possible a few countries might fall to that sort of propaganda however.

[feidzd]

Today is very hot.

[MarcZ]

It really isn't surprising, and I would say there is a good deal of people like that already in the US. Is is tried and true method in history to blame problems on the foreigners, so it is perhaps to be expected. I would like to believe people are far more educated in today's world, and so most people will not fall for it, and I think that will generally be the case. It is perhaps possible a few countries might fall to that sort of propaganda however.

I agree, I'm not particularly surprised either. However, I am surprised how strong it has become so quickly in Greece, and am curious if the financial problem will exacerbate things across Europe even faster, this with the Norway attacks in the background which opened a lot of Europeans eyes to the issue of radical anti-immigrant and anti-left politics.

[eacao]

I'm pretty sure that some people are born with all the intelligence they will ever have...

[Lux]

If things don't change in Europe, the continent can become black-brown by 2030. The problem of course being that national-oriented parties and movements cannot solve what inherently are global problems.

[MarcZ]

If things don't change in Europe, the continent can become black-brown by 2030. The problem of course being that national-oriented parties and movements cannot solve what inherently are global problems.

Perhaps not, but they surely can break down the EU. Which I as a North American see as the major problem in Europe anyways.

[Lux]

If things don't change in Europe, the continent can become black-brown by 2030. The problem of course being that national-oriented parties and movements cannot solve what inherently are global problems.

Perhaps not, but they surely can break down the EU. Which I as a North American see as the major problem in Europe anyways.

The EU is perceived as something which is for the banks and the corporations, not for the people. The recent austerity measures haven't exactly helped either.

The question is, how would a post-EU Europe look like.

Edited by Lux, 04 May 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[MarcZ]

I think the Timeline suggests an EU breakdown, but I don't think the EU will survive as long as the the timeline suggests, if Greece leaves the EU could meltdown this decade. As far as what a post-EU world would look like. I assume it would very much reduce the global power of Europe, and I assume the age of very liberal ideals in the EU would end as nationalist concerns such as influx immigration would take over rapidly, leading to the rise of right leaning parties at first similar to Viktor Orban and Hungary and later especially in the countries with rampant illegal immigration like Italy and Greece towards neo-fascist policies and movements. Greece has already begun this path even before leaving the EU.

[Lux]

In short, we are fucked

[MarcZ]

In short, we are fucked

Yeah Eurocratic Technocracy is a threat to European democracy, but it's breakdown will come at the hands of the far-right in Europe which is perhaps an even bigger threat. It is too bad there are not any strong Libertarian forces in Europe like there are in North America which keeps the political landscape centered on individualistic freedom, which Europe seems to have lost touch with.

[Lux]

That is more polemic than argumentation. The political consensus in the United States seems to be centered on anarchic liberty for big corporations and the establishment of a police state to control the citizenry. All the big talk about manly cowboys who are securing the liberty for themselves through their individualism seems to mostly be a compensation for low self-esteem, whereas reality is more defined by laws such as NDAA, SOPA, PIPA, CISPA, the recent law proposal which would let 15 000 drones patrol US air territory and the fact that the United States has 25% of the world's prison population.

[MarcZ]

That is more polemic than argumentation. The political consensus in the United States seems to be centered on anarchic liberty for big corporations and the establishment of a police state to control the citizenry. All the big talk about manly cowboys who are securing the liberty for themselves through their individualism seems to mostly be a compensation for low self-esteem, whereas reality is more defined by laws such as NDAA, SOPA, PIPA, CISPA, the recent law proposal which would let 15 000 drones patrol US air territory and the fact that the United States has 25% of the world's prison population.

The U.S. in reality is a corporatocracy, with strong political fringes, especially Libertarians, like Ron Paul which are crucial in deciding American elections.

[Lux]

Ron Paul's support base is probably to a great extent inflated with young liberals who are disillusioned with Obama's authoritarian policies. As for the Tea Party, their darling Santorum based his platform on religious and morally conservative positions.

[MarcZ]

Ron Paul's support base is probably to a great extent inflated with young liberals who are disillusioned with Obama's authoritarian policies. As for the Tea Party, their darling Santorum based his platform on religious and morally conservative positions.

Possibly, but Ron Paul reflects more classical liberalism then modern liberalism which is entwined with realpolitik, I think it's this nostalgia of a better, freer America which resonates with a lot of young people, and nostalgia is a very conservative kind of thinking.

As for Santorum he is a theocrat and not a conservative.

Note: Pardon the double post below...

Edited by MarcZ, 04 May 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Lux]

Ron Paul's support base is probably to a great extent inflated with young liberals who are disillusioned with Obama's authoritarian policies. As for the Tea Party, their darling Santorum based his platform on religious and morally conservative positions.

Possibly, but Ron Paul reflects more classical liberalism then modern liberalism which is entwined with realpolitik, I think it's this nostalgia of a better, freer America which resonates with a lot of young people, and nostalgia is a very conservative kind of thinking.

As for Santorum he is a theocrat and not a conservative.

Note: Pardon the double post below...

Ron Paul's movement is ultimately a part of the American populist tradition, where both right-wing movements (know nothings, 1920's KKK) and left-wing movements (the progressives, William Jennings Bryan, Theodore Roosevelt, Huey Long). The interesting thing is not what Ron Paul believes, but what his followers believe that he stands for and represents.

[MarcZ]

Ron Paul's support base is probably to a great extent inflated with young liberals who are disillusioned with Obama's authoritarian policies. As for the Tea Party, their darling Santorum based his platform on religious and morally conservative positions.

Possibly, but Ron Paul reflects more classical liberalism then modern liberalism which is entwined with realpolitik, I think it's this nostalgia of a better, freer America which resonates with a lot of young people, and nostalgia is a very conservative kind of thinking.

As for Santorum he is a theocrat and not a conservative.

Note: Pardon the double post below...

Ron Paul's movement is ultimately a part of the American populist tradition, where both right-wing movements (know nothings, 1920's KKK) and left-wing movements (the progressives, William Jennings Bryan, Theodore Roosevelt, Huey Long). The interesting thing is not what Ron Paul believes, but what his followers believe that he stands for and represents.

Interesting, never thought of it that way.

[Deadbolt]

I thought there was a socialist government going strongest for Greece, like France.

[MarcZ]

I thought there was a socialist government going strongest for Greece, like France.

No there is practically a party of every stripe going to be entering parliament tomorrow probably resulting of no government and will trigger another election within days which is going to hammer financial markets with uncertainty, I could see the right gaining from the chaos though.

[Time_Traveller]

Basically this party is kind off like the BNP but the BNP would never get into the British Government.