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Creating the Universe


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#1
Mercury

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Some say God created the Universe, but who created God?
Some say the Universe is the result of a singularity, but where did all that energy come from?
I want to propose a thought experiment.
Here goes:-

The Universe should exist in one of two states:

State 1. There should be nothing and nothing should exist for eternity,
or
State 2. If it is possible, there should be intelligence which has devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing.

Since we know State 1 is not true, State 2 must be true. So could the intelligence of State 2 be humanoid (human or alien)?
Could humans (or aliens) have devised a way of bringing themselves into existence from nothing,
and is the Universe the result of their 'experiment'?
The humans would have to be able to time travel (I think),
but manipulation of time may be one of the things that the humans have designed into the Universe.

So in summary I'm suggesting that if it wasn't for Human (or Alien) intelligence the Universe would exist in State 1,
ie., there would be nothing and nothing would exist for eternity.


Mercury http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif

#2
Shimmy

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Some say God created the Universe, but who created God?
Some say the Universe is the result of a singularity, but where did all that energy come from?
I want to propose a thought experiment.
Here goes:-

The Universe should exist in one of two states:

State 1. There should be nothing and nothing should exist for eternity,
or
State 2. If it is possible, there should be intelligence which has devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing.

Since we know State 1 is not true, State 2 must be true. So could the intelligence of State 2 be humanoid (human or alien)?
Could humans (or aliens) have devised a way of bringing themselves into existence from nothing,
and is the Universe the result of their 'experiment'?
The humans would have to be able to time travel (I think),
but manipulation of time may be one of the things that the humans have designed into the Universe.

So in summary I'm suggesting that if it wasn't for Human (or Alien) intelligence the Universe would exist in State 1,
ie., there would be nothing and nothing would exist for eternity.


Mercury http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif


you can't just state two supposed possibilities and then say one of them must be true. That's like me saying:

there a two possibilies:
1: the ball is red
2: the ball is blue

The ball is actually yellow, therefore it is not red, hence it must be blue. So yellow is blue. what?

#3
Mercury

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Some say God created the Universe, but who created God?
Some say the Universe is the result of a singularity, but where did all that energy come from?
I want to propose a thought experiment.
Here goes:-

The Universe should exist in one of two states:

State 1. There should be nothing and nothing should exist for eternity,
or
State 2. If it is possible, there should be intelligence which has devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing.

Since we know State 1 is not true, State 2 must be true. So could the intelligence of State 2 be humanoid (human or alien)?
Could humans (or aliens) have devised a way of bringing themselves into existence from nothing,
and is the Universe the result of their 'experiment'?
The humans would have to be able to time travel (I think),
but manipulation of time may be one of the things that the humans have designed into the Universe.

So in summary I'm suggesting that if it wasn't for Human (or Alien) intelligence the Universe would exist in State 1,
ie., there would be nothing and nothing would exist for eternity.


Mercury http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif


you can't just state two supposed possibilities and then say one of them must be true. That's like me saying:

there a two possibilies:
1: the ball is red
2: the ball is blue

The ball is actually yellow, therefore it is not red, hence it must be blue. So yellow is blue. what?



I'm suggesting something more like either the switch is on or it is off.
State 1 and State 2 are opposite states: There's something in the Universe or there's not.
If there's not something (State 1) there will never be anything in the Universe.
If the Universe contains something (State 2) how did it get there? By applied intelligence.

The Universe would have stayed empty and void but intelligence arose.
And when this intelligence matured it worked out how to bring itself into existence.
So the Universe didn't stay as empty & void....it changed.


Mercury

#4
OrbitalResonance

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Nothing -> Something -> Something becomes self aware -> Something changes itself -> ___ Stuff changes without intelligence. Intelligence is the product of constant change.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#5
Shimmy

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but your conditions weren't opposite. one was there is nothing, the other was there is something "because of intelligence (human or alien)" that second condition is a huge assumption. Basically saying if something exists, intelligence must've made it. Isn't that essentially the same argument people try to claim means god must exist. I'm happy enough with proposing the theory that intelligence arose and went back in time to create itself. Sure it has flaws but it can be an interesting concept to think about, with the whole nature of what time is and stuff. But I just don't agree with the way you tried to give it credence with that logic.

#6
OrbitalResonance

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I'm happy enough with proposing the theory that intelligence arose and went back in time to create itself.


This make no sense to me though. If it arose and existed why would it need to create itself? How do you do something before you are created!

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#7
Keitaro2011

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Some say God created the Universe, but who created God?
Some say the Universe is the result of a singularity, but where did all that energy come from?
I want to propose a thought experiment.
Here goes:-

The Universe should exist in one of two states:

State 1. There should be nothing and nothing should exist for eternity,
or
State 2. If it is possible, there should be intelligence which has devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing.

Since we know State 1 is not true, State 2 must be true. So could the intelligence of State 2 be humanoid (human or alien)?
Could humans (or aliens) have devised a way of bringing themselves into existence from nothing,
and is the Universe the result of their 'experiment'?
The humans would have to be able to time travel (I think),
but manipulation of time may be one of the things that the humans have designed into the Universe.

So in summary I'm suggesting that if it wasn't for Human (or Alien) intelligence the Universe would exist in State 1,
ie., there would be nothing and nothing would exist for eternity.


Mercury http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif


False Dichotomy.
It's apparent to me that a lot of people seem to want to prove why a technology is not possible, rather than think of ingenious ways to make something possible. It's my conviction that when someone says something is "impossible," what they really mean is "our current level of science cannot explain this, and I don’t have the motivation to explore beyond its boundaries." -Richard Obousy

#8
Mercury

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Nothing -> Something -> Something becomes self aware -> Something changes itself -> ___

Stuff changes without intelligence. Intelligence is the product of constant change.



Nothing -> Something

How?

#9
Mercury

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but your conditions weren't opposite. one was there is nothing, the other was there is something "because of intelligence (human or alien)"

that second condition is a huge assumption. Basically saying if something exists, intelligence must've made it. Isn't that essentially the same argument people try to claim means god must exist.
.......



I saying that nothing will keep on being nothing unless intelligence arises. Intelligence brings the opportunity of creating something from nothing. Intelligence could be the most powerful force in the Universe.

It's a different argument from saying God must exist.....people will say "Who created God?"
Perhaps humans/aliens created themselves via a time paradox.

#10
Mercury

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I'm happy enough with proposing the theory that intelligence arose and went back in time to create itself.


This make no sense to me though. If it arose and existed why would it need to create itself? How do you do something before you are created!


It's humans destiny to create themselves via a time paradox!

#11
Azureous

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It's humans destiny to create themselves via a time paradox!


great scott!
joking aside, i think you might be right in a sense.
To explain...
imagine the universe, in its empty blank state, nothing exists, not space, not energy, not even information. please understand what i mean by information.

now, all you really need for the universe to begin... is anything at all, just someone's thought (something virtual), could create a universe. since the universe is relative, and the size of that thought could be the size of our universe. if you don't like the idea of thought, just imagine one plank energy, the smallest unit of energy we know.

okay! with my 3rd year understanding of quantum mechanics, it should be okay to create energy, out of nothing, so long as you return the energy within the uncertainty period. "ENERGY-TIME uncertainty principal". So you don't need anything to begin with, or you can just drop a negative energy and pull out a positive energy, pardon the fail english here, but energy as in the lowest amount of energy you can have.

the reason i like the uncertainty principal theory for the universe is that, it fits with the theory that some particles are travelling backwards in time. Why? because imagine this, you throw a ball in forward time in space, this pushes you backwards, now go backwards in time, and it looks like the ball is hitting you except you are receiving negative force, pulling you forward thus placing you and the ball in the original position.

theory:
1. two universes one event
2. many particles many events
3. time will eventually go backwards? (not sure how this will affect us)
(will explain this later if i'm still making sense)

the hole in this theory is that i still don't understand if time just decides to go backwards at some point, or does it simply curve backwards like a circle. realize that we still don't understand time, the clock does not represent time...
Another point is that these are all theories are assuming the laws of physics were already apparent.

still... all it takes is something to exists at all, even something virtual to create a universe, maybe even in the split second our thoughts were made is enough to create a universe, and since time is relative, the universe is infinite, as 1 second could translate to infinity as one universe creates another, which creates another and another... etc..

If ur asking for the very beginning, the very first thought/plank energy, remember that our understanding of time is weak, and there doesn't necessarily have to have a beginning... the beginning could just be a part of a process that created itself, like a time paradox, of going back in time to mate with your grandfather/grandmother.

Not saying i understand any of this, existence itself still puzzles me, my head explodes each time i think about it, doesn't make sense whatsoever.

hopefully i explained myself properly cause the next bit is like a bomb in my head, all these theories competing for space.

#12
Mercury

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It looks like this post has died. One final attempt at resurrecting it........ You have to forget about what this Universe is like. In fact forget about the Multiverse and Branes and Time. Just use your imagination. Imagine Nothing.....absolutely nothing. No reason for anything to exist, no reason for anything to change. That state of nothing just remains. Or does it? What if an intelligence could work out a way of bringing itself into existence. The intelligence could be one or many as long as the goal is achieved....nothing changing into intelligence. So the question is.....'Are Humans the intelligence and is the Universe/Multiverse/Branes/Time/whatever how the goal was achieved?' Mercury

#13
Craven

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If there's nothing then there's no intelligence that can work out way of bringing itself into existence. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbdown.gif
"I walk alone and do no evil, having only a few wishes, just like an elephant in the forest."

"Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and you weep alone."

#14
Mercury

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If there's nothing then there's no intelligence that can work out way of bringing itself into existence. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbdown.gif


Are you 100% sure?
Can I get a second opinion?

Mercury http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif

(Throw in a few time paradoxes and a few advanced machines and.....)

#15
Azureous

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I agree with craven, if theres nothing how can there be intelligence. Think about it this way, nothing = no time, no space, no energy.

#16
Mercury

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I agree with craven, if theres nothing how can there be intelligence. Think about it this way, nothing = no time, no space, no energy.


A brain is the source of intelligence. So a brain(s) would have to work out how to make brains from absolutely nothing. What questions would you need to ask to determine if brains can be made from nothing? eg.:-

Q1.Can you create positive and negative energy from nothing?
Q2.Can you seperate the positive and negative energy?
Q3.Is it possible to create time to be manipulated by brains?
Q4.Can you create advanced machines out of the energy?
Q5.Can you send the machines back through time to year dot?
Q6.Can you create universe?
Q7.What's next?

Something like that.


Mercury

#17
Azureous

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Well if you put it that way, maybe we're just someone's imagination. bam! or do you mean its like an infinite cycle, universe A makes universe B, C, D which makes A etc?

#18
Mercury

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Well if you put it that way, maybe we're just someone's imagination. bam!
or do you mean its like an infinite cycle, universe A makes universe B, C, D which makes A etc?



It's like an continuous loop......future scientists create the Big Bang and physics of the Universe. Humans evolve. Scientists and Engineers are born. After long and hard research, perhaps 10 Billion years from now, they work out how to bring themselves into existence. The scientists create the Big Bang and physics of the Universe.........


Mercury

#19
Azureous

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ahhhhh so that's what you mean! it was just a hunch, i had no idea that was what you were thinking. yeah well that is defiantly possible, eventually this universe is gonna die (about 6-8billion years away), we can either escape into a new universe or somehow prevent this one's break down. Since the new universe can be made to follow new rules why not create one that does not require much energy at all. There's probably a lot of scientists who've considered this before, i know Michio Kaku has. If we've reach this state then our powers are really no different than gods. So maybe there is a god?

#20
Mercury

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ahhhhh so that's what you mean! it was just a hunch, i had no idea that was what you were thinking.
yeah well that is defiantly possible, eventually this universe is gonna die (about 6-8billion years away), we can either escape into a new universe or somehow prevent this one's break down. Since the new universe can be made to follow new rules why not create one that does not require much energy at all. There's probably a lot of scientists who've considered this before, i know Michio Kaku has.

If we've reach this state then our powers are really no different than gods. So maybe there is a god?



Manipulation of time seems to be the key. If future scientists can manipulate time they can possibly :-

1. Bring this universe into existence.
2. Transfer our consciousness at our moment of death to a manmade afterlife realm. (But that's another thread).

I'm just wondering that if it wasn't for intelligent brains would anything exist in the Universe - perhaps there would just be a void.


Mercury




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