9 replies to this topic

[Kombaticus]

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong section, it just made the most sense to me.

I basically just wanted to conduct a little thought experiment...I've been reading up on mind-uploading recently and I wanted to see how you all would think of this case.

Imagine a device that could scan an object, atom by atom, and take matter and make a perfect copy of that object. Not that hard to imagine, considering the timeline. So...humans beings are able to survive with only half of their brain, either left or right hemisphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy Say you scan a person's brain, and then surgically cut the brain in half...and then use our device to copy the opposite side for each part and put them together, let's say in new synthetic bodies, either cloned or mechanical...so you have two new brains made from one original brain, each identical to the other, and each having one of the original halves.

Question is, do you feel that each new person would have equal claim as far as being the "original?" What do you imagine the experience of this would be like if the procedure could be performed without interrupting the stream of consciousness?

[Craven]

Each new person would have equal claim to be original mr. John Doe. But they wouldn't be identical. Brain is not symmetrical, also "to survive" with only half of brain is diffrent from normal function.

So you could split one person into two somewhat functioning diffrent individuals, probably crippled for lifetime. That's it.

[Kombaticus]

Right, but remember we are copying the half that was removed and putting it back, making two whole brains again. Doesn't make much of a difference I suppose...they would still be two people.

I just find it amazing that consciousness can be divided by dividing the brain. At least I think.

What I am really trying to ask with this post is this...if you were to simply scan the whole brain and make a copy of it, few would argue that there was an original and a copy. The new brain would be your clone, a different sense of self, and you feel no sense of continuity from it...even though you end up with two different whole brains.

However, by doing it in the way I described, the "flow of consciousness" can be preserved...you still end up with two brains like above, however, neither can be considered the original or a copy.

Dammit, I'm rambling, aren't I?

Edited by Kombaticus, 30 July 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[kjaggard]

For more on this topic see my other posts about uploading and identity preservation (and my 5 possibilities of how it works and what that means).

Personally my feelings on the scenarios you offer go something like this: Based on people with alien hand syndrome after hemispheres split I would say we each have a dominant and recessive half and spliting them is rather like celullar mitosis. they become two entities. each carrying the contents they held before. If you could duplicate the memories from each into the new replacement halves you could restore them to full identity. and Honestly I would say that in all probability they are the same person living seperate lives from that point on. nobodies a copy.

The only way I can think to illustrate this idea is to take the next example of taking a complete duplicate brain and wiring it into the brain of a person. He or she then would have twice as much brain to wander around in and if they integrated well it could come to function and '4 hemispheres' with one identity. if you cut them apart you'd get another case of alien hand type situation where the same person is in two places and unable to connect with themselves.

I think it's in the nature of the multicelular organisms we are. in effect we are a hive mind and the whole mind can survive loss of parts and growth of parts. when we split them and both survive they are both part of the orginal hive mind and maintain that identity but diverge from that point... and heres the part that squicks me a bit... if you melded several together they would become a single hive identity but not lose the identity of the originals. sort of like a gestalt of each other. A good fictional example is Dax from Star Trek DS9.

So that if you seperate the parts again they will all be the greater hive mind which contains the subset of the components of the individual identity, though the memories would be only within the minds where they were stored not belonging to all.

So melding or hiving our minds to each other would create a new entity of which I might be an aspect of a greater whole, and redividing leaves the greater whole in my body with me just another aspect of that. Cutting my brain in half and growing new halves for each leave the greater whole of me in both.

That's roughly how I see it.

[SG-1]

Right, but remember we are copying the half that was removed and putting it back, making two whole brains again. Doesn't make much of a difference I suppose...they would still be two people.

I just find it amazing that consciousness can be divided by dividing the brain. At least I think.

What I am really trying to ask with this post is this...if you were to simply scan the whole brain and make a copy of it, few would argue that there was an original and a copy. The new brain would be your clone, a different sense of self, and you feel no sense of continuity from it...even though you end up with two different whole brains.

However, by doing it in the way I described, the "flow of consciousness" can be preserved...you still end up with two brains like above, however, neither can be considered the original or a copy.

Dammit, I'm rambling, aren't I?

The side of the brain that is left in the head would be considered the original. The side that was cut out would stop functioning (unless you hooked it up to a VR or a robot while inserting into the other body) and therefore would be another person.

I think once you loose continuity, you are not the same person. The only way I can see mind uploading working is if you have the subject conscious the whole time. Since the brain has no nerve endings you cannot feel anything. Nanobots may be able to scan a group of neurons and replace them with artificial ones that work in conjunction with the biological portion of your brain.

If you made a copy, obviously the copy would be as entitled to call it you, but it should not get your job since it isn't you, it lost continuity. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how we will be able to shape shift. The timeline says we may be made out of nanobots that can transform the body into whatever shape, and that is a logical statement, but the head will have to retain the brain's shape. So you can't become any smaller than however big your artificial brain is.

You could not just move yourself into another substrate because you are not a file, you are a pattern that exists within hardware. You are the interactions going on between neurons. Unless I am wrong and we find that consciousness can be reduced to a digital version (which would allow for any form) we are stuck with a brain, even if it is artificial.

If you had a digital file, you could merge two computers together. Say your bulky 1st gen artificial brain connects to a nanobot with enough power to hold your consciousness. Once you are connected to that computer (assuming two separate memory devices) you could cut and paste the file over. Cut and paste does not delete the file, it changes where the memory is accessed. Still, how that would work across two different partitions I do not know. I also don't know if you would need to keep continuity with a file either. If you didn't than if you copied it they would each be you (except separate from then on).

Maybe there is a way to keep one file from being deleted while moving it from one partition to the other..

Edited by SG-1, 31 July 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Logically Irrational]

The problem with continuity is that, whether it really is the same person at the end or not, continuity is always felt by the person at the end. If the process were to work perfectly, then the biological person and the non-biological person, if you could hypothetically ask both of them, would both agree that continuity would be maintained. They would agree that they are the same person.

But if the process didn't work, and the old person was deleted, or died, then the old person and the new person would disagree. Even if the old self was gone for good, the new self would still feel as if thing were continuous. They would have all of the same memories, presumably right up until the point of uploading, so it would seem that they were in continuity with the old person.

So either way, continuity is felt by the end product. When you come out of the mind uploading process, you may have that nagging worry that you are just a wholly new person.

So, in relation to the thought experiment, I don't think that the original's right to claim anything as the original is so black and white. If you have two people with what are essentially identical minds, along with the same perceived history, memories, and, most importantly, the sense of being the original, would it be easy to deny the copy's claim? Does the fact that one has simply been around longer give them an advantage of some kind.

The most common answer would be that the original mind would have proper claim because it was the mind responsible for all the action that made up the person's history. However, that doesn't really solve the problem, since both people have that same mind. It's a different brain (albeit identical) in each body, but the same mind. This is whether the dualistic view is right or wrong, since either way, you're dealing with the inscrutable "mind" that seems to float around detached in your head. It's a very abstract concept, but I think you know what I mean. And since the part which really cares about the outcome and who's who is the same, it would be difficult to decide who to give it to.

This is all very weird stuff. Half the time I really don't even know what I'm trying to say to be honest.

[Zeitgeist123]

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong section, it just made the most sense to me.

I basically just wanted to conduct a little thought experiment...I've been reading up on mind-uploading recently and I wanted to see how you all would think of this case.

Imagine a device that could scan an object, atom by atom, and take matter and make a perfect copy of that object. Not that hard to imagine, considering the timeline. So...humans beings are able to survive with only half of their brain, either left or right hemisphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy Say you scan a person's brain, and then surgically cut the brain in half...and then use our device to copy the opposite side for each part and put them together, let's say in new synthetic bodies, either cloned or mechanical...so you have two new brains made from one original brain, each identical to the other, and each having one of the original halves.

Question is, do you feel that each new person would have equal claim as far as being the "original?" What do you imagine the experience of this would be like if the procedure could be performed without interrupting the stream of consciousness?

both are equally half-original and half-copy. i was reading the comments above, and i am still convinced that the brain is so different from a computer where hardware and software can be separated. brain's hardware, software and wetware are fully integrated as a one whole organ. it's now hard for me to go about the idea of this "duality" when talking about our brains especially if we do a mind transfer and destroying the original. i am pretty convinced that if such a case happens, the original (which is you) is without a doubt, killed. but the thought experiment above would probably work, except now you have 2 of yourselves knowing exactly how you think or react about things in general.

Edited by Zeitgeist123, 11 August 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Kombaticus]

Right, but what would it feel like? Would both individuals simply feel like they were the original, with a seamless transition?

[Lily]

If their minds and memories are still intact, it would seem to me, that yes, both of them would claim to be the "original". The copy would probably be able to remember everything perceived up until the moment of the separation, and as such, continue to live on as an independent entity, a whole person. Whether it would think about it's own sense of personality or not, I can't say.

That's one of these thoughts that keep running in my mind when talking about topics like this: If you make such a perfect copy of yourself, are you you, but only in two different bodies? And if so, how can the original one, the "donor" claim to be any better than the copy, which, in itself, is, in the end, you. Atfer all, you would be saying that you are better than.. well, you?

I think it's because of this that a lot of people are afraid of clones and copies; they fear to be substituted and replaced, thus, not needed any more and fully ready to be discarded. Who'd want that?

Edited by Lily, 11 August 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Zeitgeist123]

Right, but what would it feel like? Would both individuals simply feel like they were the original, with a seamless transition?

well as long as the technology is highly advanced to make the transition seamless, i guess so.