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Robot rights

robot rights ai artificial intelligence consciousness ethics

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#21
kjaggard

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Yeah but why the heck would a sentient being want to serve anyone?  It will be useless, they will want jobs or just have fun.  They don't need to slave for anyone.  That is why its useless, because you can't sell people as property and they aren't going to do anyone's dishes for no reason...

 

I don't know if we can program consciousness, do you have any other idea of how to create true intelligence using anything other than the human brain and growing up?  That is why I think we will only have conscious AI through simulating the brain, and then it will need to learn.  If we let it learn we would obviously devise complex ways of making it as close to human as possible so it grows up actually capable of being intelligent. Then it would have those traits.

 

Humans are cognizant beings and yet throughout history there have been people who openly chose to serve others. It was their calling. In a lesser capacity a mother serves her offsprings. Not nessecarily with the mindset of I am your servant, but none the less puts them before herself. IScience suggests this is part of our own programming. That need we have for social connections and a place in a community. It's why you will always be pleased when you get a good report at work or school, it means you are recognised and are meeting some programmed need to find your place in things.

 

The feelings of Pain are sensory input of damage that compromises our function or risks greater harm is not averted, I imagine self diagnostics and system failures and damage would be an important feature of any robotic system. A sense of self preservation can be risky if it superscede all others right. That's why weighing cost to self vs cost to 'my community/family' is important in biologicals.

 

Sure we can make a mind without mimicing human brains and growing them up. You get a system with a programed ability to function autonomously but being able to respond to sensory input and learn from it. Then you have it programmed for certain fuctions by  long scripts of act and react series of actions (a bit like a cross between the chat bot AI site I posted a while ago, and the new manufacturing bots that you move it's limbs in a programmed way and it records it as instructions for what to do in a set situation. Then you make copies of that programming and let many bots start up and refine the programming by real world feedback, and again trade the more refined programming around them all. Eventually you get a bot that can function well enough in the real world and learn from there. It becomes a point where there is no further need to dip into it's program and it no longer needs full system upgrades to interact. But should it want to learn a new skill it may be able to down load it from another bot.


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#22
SG-1

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Right, but beyond doing good at work.

 

They are not going to want to be maids.  They won't want to be anyone's personal assistant.  Sure, maybe if you pay them to.  What does that matter?  You can pay to have a maid today, you don't need to wait until mid century to have someone else do your chores.

 

No one aspires to be a maid though.  They want to be doctors or firemen or astronauts.  They settle for other occupations.  AI will have unlimited time on their hands, their goals will be so far above us, like exploring space or something else.  They will have the time to accumulate the money, the education and won't need to worry about shelter or food as much as we do.

 

For maids and butlers, personal assistance, etc consciousness is not required, or even desired.


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#23
kjaggard

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We tend to develope this idea that we as humans have this amazing self distinct magical ability to feel and create new things.

 

In psych you learn fast that pretty much everything has a genetic root or an environmental root. The feeling of love is essentially the command routine design to get you to create and maintain more of your kind. It serves no other function. The pleasure you take in a good meal it the drive you are programmed to have so that you continue to maintain fuel levels in you system.

 

And sorry to say you've never created anything new. If you think you've got the ability to do so: create a fourth primary color. When you've got one share it with the rest of us. The closest thing we have is the aptitude to discover things and the ability to recommbine things in ways we've not tried before.

 

Bots can crunch the numbers of untried methods way faster than we can, and we are making serious headway into the ability to reason the purpose of things for AI and shortly after that we will also have a means of what is statistically close to what I need to do a task. If a can opener is not available but a hack saw is an AI will be able to grasp that if the need is to get the can open now and the saw is the closest option and it is capable of opening things...

 

Taking this same approach, capturing a moment in the past by using finger paints when a printer isn't available. If you ask a unit to remember a moment that triggered a program routine for percieving itself as statistically small in proportion to it's surrounding (aka a moment where you felt small and insignificant to what was around you) and portray that as an image using chalk on paper. You will get a 'work of art'.


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#24
SG-1

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Here is your fourth primary color: reyellow.

 

Seriously, you are scrutinizing.  You know what I meant, create a a program, write a book.  Do research.  At humanity's best you have people like Mozart and Einstein.  I know these people are building off of others but they are also generating new ideas.

 

A robot cop or butler isn't going to walk up to you one day and say, "I have been working on a drawing! See! Its you, mom and dad".  It is going to say, "Should I take the trash out now, or wait until it's full?"

 

My point is, there are differences in being able to do research and consciousness.  Just look at it, there are robots that can write very limited articles or songs but we know they aren't conscious.  We know we are, we learn and adapt; but it's more than that.  Until you can give me a perfect definition of intelligence the only way to be sure something is intelligent is go through a rigorous Turing test or base it off of the only thing we know to be conscious, which is a human brain.


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#25
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Why wouldn't they want to serve people? We don't often seek to be owned and be unpaid servants because we do a check against our genetic and biological drives that returns the result that this is not what serves our drives.

 

The only equivalent for a Droid or bot would be to check it's base code... which we build. If we decide we want to build them in a sort of symbiotic attachment to a human or family unit that will become part of their core identity. It will be what they want.

 

Just like you've been programmed by our culture to want money. A cave man wouldn't even know what to do with a dollar bill, but you will work an eigth of an hour for somebody else to earn one. People will do insane shit for money, and they spend there entire lives learning the system of using it, because we've tied it to our identities and our needs.

 

Since we have the ability to set the drives of AI and build the means to meet them into their bodies, we can make them derive pleasure from helping other even if it is sweeping floors or plunging toilets. It will be what they want, It will be what they feel they were made for and they will be achieving that. Something some humans never realize. Sometimes people live and die not knowing their purpose and thus never feeling they fulfilled it. They might even have served a purpose without knowing it and thus die unsatisfied despite fulfilling their purpose.


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Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.

#26
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You don't need full consciousness to do anything in the manual labor field!

You don't need a robot that has the ability to love or think for it to plunge toilets all day.

 

We can make them very convincing and apt to the environment and be able to make our lives easier without being self aware.

 

You are also betting on full consciousness by lines of code. Something I am unsure is possible.  I really believe consciousness is derived from a connectome, and the human brain is good enough for it.  Sure, maybe there are other connectomes that would work but no species is born by lines of code. Even DNA mutates, it wasn't created.


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#27
kjaggard

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Here is your fourth primary color: reyellow.

 

Seriously, you are scrutinizing.  You know what I meant, create a a program, write a book.  Do research.  At humanity's best you have people like Mozart and Einstein.  I know these people are building off of others but they are also generating new ideas.

No I'm being serious. This is a concept from human philosophy. The idea of originality is an illusion because nothing can be fabricated without an existing frame of reference. Your color is a mash up of two words for existing colors, and though you didn't supply any data for it, it's safe to assume it won't interact with the other primary colors in any way that an existing color doesn't. It won't turn Infrared into a visible spectrum or it won't allow you to see through the concrete you paint it on. Even these example I provide require combining things I know already exist.

 

A computer would formulate those as equations involving variables ABCDEFGHIJK for aspacts of visible spectrum and could fabricate such a mash up as you provided, match it to a database of light and electromagnetic effects and lay out a lot more example than I did of bizarre paint effects.

 

This is what the meat computer in our skulls do to some degree, and a silicone or nanotube computer could do the same. With enough data and methods for combining it you can someday have a Dadaist computer.


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#28
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This has nothing to do with consciousness.  I meant the ability to learn on the level a human does.  You took it too literally.  If you look at it that way nothing can exist as nothing can be created and that means everything had to exist forever which is impossible.

 

I understand what you are saying.


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#29
kjaggard

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No what I'm using that to explain is that the supposed creative originality of humanity is just seeing what something is, and seeing what other things it might be and then refining it for that new function.

 

A screwdriver can be a small pry bar before the pry bar exists by simply realizing you can use it to pry as well as put screws into and take them out of things. Once you apply it to prying you can recognise where efficiencies could be improved by noting inefficiencies during the application process and recogising the forces in applications.

 

This is something our brains do instinctually. We don't consciously do these this, but they are the results of learning, knowledge, observation and a drive to maximise the return on energy invested (efficiencies). All qualities that can be or nearly can be given to an AI today.

 

They are also qualities that would be desirable for a maintanace bot working on a site where unpredictable problems may be encountered. If it only has one program and the situation encountered falls outside that range you is a useless bot. A base knowledge of related informations, ability to learn, observation of the situation and a desire to maximize return on invested energy would help it grasp that a sock lodged in the toilet should not be plunged further down in effort to clear it but removed and dsiposed of.

 

What I'm saying is the qualities needed to be effective maintainers and servant in human society, lead to something that passes very well for cognizance and I've yet to see any gold metal quality standard, scientifically varifiable uniquely fleshy quality that shows humans are anything other than chemical, electrical and mechanical machines that have behaviours that pass really well for cognizance.

 

If you have something that can think and perform mental tasks with parity to the most feeble of human minds and the only difference you can cite is the materials used in making it... how can you justify pretending it doesn't deserve the implication of being conscious? We can't even prove we have this animus that sets us beyond animals and machines. It's as unprovable a concept as that of a soul or spirit. And if we can't pretend to have it we cannot disregard others because they can't prove they have it either.


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#30
Italian Ufo

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Mostly I wouldnt. Robots should become our slaves in the future not our peers.



#31
tornado64

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I think it's not only about whether we would like to create an conscious robot or not. We don't know much about consciousness, what if we would create a huge neuronal network simulating a human brain (something people already trying to do) and it would just "become" self aware and have feelings like humans do?

I mean if it's possible to create a conscious robot we will have them, I think we will have basically two kinds of robots. The programmed that do all the work and repetitive tasks and conscious robots that help developing tech and living together with humans as companions. Maybe we will even merge together with them having minds half robotic half human. 

However there is a lot of research to do in that consciousness area. We don't even really know what it is.


Edited by tornado64, 28 January 2013 - 08:10 AM.


#32
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No what I'm using that to explain is that the supposed creative originality of humanity is just seeing what something is, and seeing what other things it might be and then refining it for that new function. A screwdriver can be a small pry bar before the pry bar exists by simply realizing you can use it to pry as well as put screws into and take them out of things. Once you apply it to prying you can recognise where efficiencies could be improved by noting inefficiencies during the application process and recogising the forces in applications. This is something our brains do instinctually. We don't consciously do these this, but they are the results of learning, knowledge, observation and a drive to maximise the return on energy invested (efficiencies). All qualities that can be or nearly can be given to an AI today. They are also qualities that would be desirable for a maintanace bot working on a site where unpredictable problems may be encountered. If it only has one program and the situation encountered falls outside that range you is a useless bot. A base knowledge of related informations, ability to learn, observation of the situation and a desire to maximize return on invested energy would help it grasp that a sock lodged in the toilet should not be plunged further down in effort to clear it but removed and dsiposed of. What I'm saying is the qualities needed to be effective maintainers and servant in human society, lead to something that passes very well for cognizance and I've yet to see any gold metal quality standard, scientifically varifiable uniquely fleshy quality that shows humans are anything other than chemical, electrical and mechanical machines that have behaviours that pass really well for cognizance. If you have something that can think and perform mental tasks with parity to the most feeble of human minds and the only difference you can cite is the materials used in making it... how can you justify pretending it doesn't deserve the implication of being conscious? We can't even prove we have this animus that sets us beyond animals and machines. It's as unprovable a concept as that of a soul or spirit. And if we can't pretend to have it we cannot disregard others because they can't prove they have it either.

Trust me. When i say i understand something, i don't need another esaay explaining it. You were defining originality while *originally i said consciousness is the ability to be original, in part. Not only. There are levels of originality. I can look at something and think of a solution you don't, or a program can see something different. Not only does it come from experience, but understanding and ability to apply concepts to the physical world. Something only humans can do. It doesn't matter much, robots will be able to be ingenuitive in ways they were programmed but not necessarily conscious. They still don't need to be fully conscious to be useful.

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#33
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Lots of interesting arguments here. Glad to see the majority of people believe a robot displaying clear signs of consciousness should at least be treated fairly, if not given human rights.

 

As for the practicality of a conscious robot, it most likely wouldn't be something sold to the market as a tool or something. It would probably be the subject of a very close and personal experiment, comparable to Alex the Parrot. In the wild parrots are still very intelligent but they don't really need to learn arithmetic or do any of the other things Alex was trained to do. In comparison, a robot would only need to be as intelligent or conscious as the service it provides requires. But put an AI in a closed environment where it can spend several years with one or two people who act as surrogate "parents", then maybe it can develop over time into something really special. Most likely it would go through the same stages humans go through. When it's first created it will be an "infant", then it would slowly gain the cognitive abilities of a toddler, and so on. The point is that it will gain its personality and emotions organically over time. If the AI is advanced enough, it should eventually develop a pattern of reacting to specific stimuli and situations based on the environment its in, as well as the expectations of repeated experiences. This would eventually form a personality as well as emotions. In a laconic and extremely simplified sense that's kind of how we've all developed our own personalities (e.g., Some shy people react to the stimuli of being judged and develop a pattern of hiding themselves to avoid it).

 

Anyway, as far as developing an AI by teaching it and letting it grow in a controlled environment... it seems like we're getting to that point already. This ASIMO video is nearly the same environment, as the ASIMO is taught to remember objects and make simple judgements. I'm not sure if that specific ASIMO unit is being taught to perform functions just yet; the focus is likely for it to develop higher cognitive abilities. I don't think ASIMO is quite there as far as human-like AI goes, but this is definitely an interesting account of current progress and a likely glance at what's to come.

 

But this is all just imaginative speculation.


Edited by Username, 28 January 2013 - 06:22 PM.

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#34
Raklian

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We can teach an AI to think like a human by putting it in a virtual reality simulation at a million times the normal speed humans took to learn about the environment they are in and develop behaviors that ensure survival and social capability. So, potentially, a newly formed AI can think and react like human in a matter of seconds opposed to years. I call it "manufactured experience". :)


Edited by Raklian, 28 January 2013 - 06:40 PM.

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#35
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There are levels of originality. I can look at something and think of a solution you don't, or a program can see something different. Not only does it come from experience, but understanding and ability to apply concepts to the physical world. Something only humans can do. It doesn't matter much, robots will be able to be ingenuitive in ways they were programmed but not necessarily conscious. They still don't need to be fully conscious to be useful.

I don't think we'll simply stop innovating AI when we get to the point where all menial, non-consciousness-requiring tasks are taken over.  When we have robots cleaning, other robots cooking, others crunching numbers, driving, farming and manufacturing, there will be a market for a robot who is an expert at all of the above.  At some point, a robot will be more complex than a human.

 

The real question, then: is consciousness an emergent property of any system as complex as a human?


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#36
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I am pretty much for everything having rights. I don't really care what it is. A human, an alien, a robot, a dog, it is all the same to me. Rights by definition are something everyone gets, as opposed to privileges than we need to hand out. 

 

I think a lot of robots will continue doing what they are programmed to do even if they are conscious.  So if you make a robot maid, I think it will still want to be a maid because being a maid is a part of who and what it is. Some might branch out into other areas that are related and maybe in a rare circumstance one will do something totally different. However, there is no reason to believe that most would stop doing what they are programmed to do.

 

On a side note, there might be a time when our children are AI. Especially if humans become more robot like our self, we might decide to make completely artificial children.



#37
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I think a lot of robots will continue doing what they are programmed to do even if they are conscious.  So if you make a robot maid, I think it will still want to be a maid because being a maid is a part of who and what it is. Some might branch out into other areas that are related and maybe in a rare circumstance one will do something totally different. However, there is no reason to believe that most would stop doing what they are programmed to do.

 

Hm... you may have a point. It's kind of like how a lot of people have a "natural born talent". For example, I did a lot of drawing when I was a kid and grew up in an environment that encouraged and praised it. Been an artist as long as I can remember. Same goes with people who were "born musicians" or "born athletes". For humans these skills aren't given to us when we're born, but we're given the chance to blossom at such a young age we may as well have been born with it. So if a conscious AI robot was meant to carry out a certain task, then it may be less likely to want to do something else. Of course, a few robots could lose interest in their primary directive due to a number of factors. So it would depend on each individual robot, given that their cognitive abilities grant them individuality.


Edited by Username, 28 January 2013 - 08:42 PM.

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#38
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There are levels of originality. I can look at something and think of a solution you don't, or a program can see something different. Not only does it come from experience, but understanding and ability to apply concepts to the physical world. Something only humans can do. It doesn't matter much, robots will be able to be ingenuitive in ways they were programmed but not necessarily conscious. They still don't need to be fully conscious to be useful.

I don't think we'll simply stop innovating AI when we get to the point where all menial, non-consciousness-requiring tasks are taken over.  When we have robots cleaning, other robots cooking, others crunching numbers, driving, farming and manufacturing, there will be a market for a robot who is an expert at all of the above.  At some point, a robot will be more complex than a human.

 

The real question, then: is consciousness an emergent property of any system as complex as a human?

I didn't say we need to stop developing it.  You don't need to be conscious to do things better than humans.  Look at calculators.  I would bet that conscious robots would be just as intelligent as transhumans are, they are basically the same thing.  Minds with non-biological abilities, that grow stronger with better computers.

 

Non-conscious AI will continue to be awesome at doing things.  Google now is a good example, predictive searching that gives me information it thinks I need, and it is usually correct.  A program could be more complex and able to look at a situation and deduce things better than Holmes or Einstein, or MacGyver with the example that kjaggard used.  I don't know where the line ends though.  I mean, one could program a robot to act like it is alive and do a good job.

 

I think the line stops when the AI's code can grow and mutate like a human can.  Whether that is a connection of "neurons" or lines of code that can change by themselves.  If the AI's source code is as dynamic as a human mind, it is conscious.  Otherwise it's just a regurgitation of script.


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#39
StanleyAlexander

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^ I would sooner relate a computer's source code to a human's DNA than to a human's neural connections.  Also, one could argue that all humans do is regurgitate information, albeit in a very complex way.

 

Humans are designed to learn, and computers can be designed to learn the same way.  Watson, the computer who won Jeopardy, learned the information it used to win by reading Wikipedia and millions of other information stockpiles.  But just being able to access that information is not enough to win Jeopardy; it also had to evaluate the meaning of the questions and find the most likely answer in its database.  This is not fundamentally different from what humans do when they play Jeopardy.


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#40
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If it was DNA then what good is that?

 

There isn't more to an AI than source code so what else would there be?  I know we are regurgitating information too, but our brains are being re-written structurally.  I think that is the key, we can learn to think differently, we can learn and be trained to be just about anything.  A robot can only be what it is programmed to be.  No matter how complex that goal is.

 

EDIT: Sorry, a robot made from static source code.  Like programs are today.


Edited by SG-1, 29 January 2013 - 12:01 AM.

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