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#61
jjf3

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First off, I never said anything about how great America's economy is. I guess you just like spitting more lies huh? I clearly stated I wanted nothing to do with those religious tea party folks. But you obviously can't read, or play nice, with other people's opinions. Just because I have some beliefs that Tea Party people would love, doesn't mean I am one. I am INDEPENDENT!!!! I hope that's clear! No actually I didn't vote in the 2008 election because as I stated before, I had a feeling Obama wasn't who he said he was, "real Change," and all that crap, and MCcain was going to be too war-mongering. You can't align me with tea party people because you know my facts are right. I go to a college in the south with 50% population as black. I have many, many black friends and I am insulted that you would even consider me racist!!!!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#62
jjf3

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For those wondering why the economy is as bad as it is, please watch this movie:

This was made in 2008.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0963807/
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#63
Caiman

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I don't believe you need the government to tell you what to do.

But you’re quite happy for an insurance underwriter to decide whether or not to pay out on your healthcare, or even insure you in the first place?

But most of the right believes that you have a choice if you want to buy health insurance or not and you have a choice about what should be covered on your plan. Not some crappy little government plan. Your plan!

The ‘crappy little government plan’ over here is quite simple. If you need medical attention, hospital treatment or suffer a long term illness, you will be supported and not have to worry about a large bill coming through the door later. I am sure you could scour google and dig up some obscure cases of a person being denied some new, experimental cancer drug, or someone having to wait a few months for a hip replacement- our national health service isn’t perfect, but then neither is your private health system- conversely I could find many examples of insured individuals being denied payment for treatment in your country. Of course, if people prefer private healthcare then that option is also available to them, the introduction of government financed healthcare does not remove access to alternatives.

America has been around for 235 years and I think the Europeans may be just a little bit jealous, probably ever since we left them.

Perhaps there’s some merit to your comment but not every resident of this continent is a flag waving supporter of the European Union. The United States isn’t the first global superpower and won’t be the last. You highlight some of the political failings on this side of the Atlantic in the last century but ignore the thousands of years of history which gave birth to the cultural, political and economic foundations which your own country is proudly built upon.

The current crisis’ are a global problem created thanks to malpractice by corporations, banks and governments all over the world, not just in the United States, not just in Europe. We can all put out a rounded, patriotic defence of our countries but that doesn’t change the fact that something is seriously wrong when nations like the US and UK, home to some of the richest individuals on the planet and a huge middle class, also have some of the highest levels of poverty in the ‘first world’ and it’s just not a situation that can simply be blamed on laziness or inability- I am not a staunch proponent of ‘distributing the wealth’ but something just doesn’t seem right when there are tax cuts and loopholes for the richest to jump through whilst millions of people in our countries are living below the line many of us would consider the bare minimum standard of living, in many cases through no fault of their own thanks to lack of opportunities, jobs and education.
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~Jon

#64
wjfox

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The ‘crappy little government plan’ over here is quite simple. If you need medical attention, hospital treatment or suffer a long term illness, you will be supported and not have to worry about a large bill coming through the door later. I am sure you could scour google and dig up some obscure cases of a person being denied some new, experimental cancer drug, or someone having to wait a few months for a hip replacement- our national health service isn’t perfect, but then neither is your private health system- conversely I could find many examples of insured individuals being denied payment for treatment in your country. Of course, if people prefer private healthcare then that option is also available to them, the introduction of government financed healthcare does not remove access to alternatives.

jjf3 seems impervious to logic and facts, so your post is wasted on him.

Edit: Btw, I went for some hospital tests this morning, using our crappy old "socialist" system. It was only a 5 minute walk from my house, I only had to wait 20 minutes for the tests and I didn't pay anything at all.


... millions of people in our countries are living below the line many of us would consider the bare minimum standard of living, in many cases through no fault of their own thanks to lack of opportunities, jobs and education.

jjf3 cares nothing for these people - like most right-wingers, he believes it's completely their own fault (or the government's), and he's only interested in making things easier for the rich, the privileged, the so-called "job creators" because all he cares about is money and profits, not real people with real lives. Or am I wrong? I find it so difficult to get inside the minds of right-wingers. It seems like they genuinely don't give a fuck about the poor.
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#65
mic of orion

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The ‘crappy little government plan’ over here is quite simple. If you need medical attention, hospital treatment or suffer a long term illness, you will be supported and not have to worry about a large bill coming through the door later. I am sure you could scour google and dig up some obscure cases of a person being denied some new, experimental cancer drug, or someone having to wait a few months for a hip replacement- our national health service isn’t perfect, but then neither is your private health system- conversely I could find many examples of insured individuals being denied payment for treatment in your country. Of course, if people prefer private healthcare then that option is also available to them, the introduction of government financed healthcare does not remove access to alternatives.

jjf3 seems impervious to logic and facts, so your post is wasted on him.

Edit: Btw, I went for some hospital tests this morning, using our crappy old "socialist" system. It was only a 5 minute walk from my house, I only had to wait 20 minutes for the tests and I didn't pay anything at all.


... millions of people in our countries are living below the line many of us would consider the bare minimum standard of living, in many cases through no fault of their own thanks to lack of opportunities, jobs and education.

jjf3 cares nothing for these people - like most right-wingers, he believes it's completely their own fault (or the government's), and he's only interested in making things easier for the rich, the privileged, the so-called "job creators" because all he cares about is money and profits, not real people with real lives. Or am I wrong? I find it so difficult to get inside the minds of right-wingers. It seems like they genuinely don't give a fuck about the poor.


Poor people are evil, they are poor because they are evil and god punishes evil as we all know, and to be rich and greedy is good, capitalism is only way to go, free markets and self regulation (.i.e no regulation of any kind), and why would rich need to pay taxes, they've made their money through hard work (nepotism, corruption, bribery and theft had nothing to o with their wealth, honestly), Bernard Madoff should be let out f the prison now!!! He did nothing wrong, it is fault of everyone else who invested in to his scheme, he is honest businessman who worked hard. Enron was a set up by Greedy government bureaucrats, they are the victims of evil Government, that is a fact!!! honest businessman can't make any honest money, all these regulations are clogging US economy, we must deregulate and make America once again open to competition and free market forces, where money must flow, as money creates jobs and economic growth!!!

This is what teabaggers believe in and i wouldn't be surprised our friend here does too.
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It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

#66
KingstonDon

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Um No? I'm just going by what history has stated

Hitler- 12 years
Stalin- 30 years
EU- not even ten years.

(and I think you don't understand what an impact Greece's bankruptcy could have on the entire EU).

All of Europe's big government ideas have failed or are failing. America has been around for 235 years and I think the Europeans may be just a little bit jealous, probably ever since we left them. it's clear that Obama's strategies aren't working and that's why the Republicans want so desperately another leader. I want another leader too!!! And I almost voted for Obama, because I believed his lies.


Ok, If you're touching on the EU, then you've ventured into my domain jjf :)

The Euro is hardly 10 years old, BUT, the European Union is one form or another much older, in the nature of 40+ years now, starting with the Trade agreements between the BeNeLux countries, eventually expanding into a Free Trade Agreemeent between these countries and France and Germany, expanding ever onwards from there, succesful from it's start and succesful now,

You can't expect any new initiative to be flawless, that's why there's trial and error, I mean, At least we didn't have to evict any "natives" to compose our union :p
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#67
Prolite

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Look at US economy, you guys are bankrupt, and you pointing fingers at EU, lol Yeah fine example lets check Greece and Portugal, only countries that could go belly up, America has almost bankrupted, the fact is confidence in US dollar as a reserve currency has demolished completely.

And you ppl wont have any growth this year ,from looks of things, and unemployment just went up to 9.6%. Even Obama is saying that it would be a miracle if America can reduce its unemployment.



Um No? I'm just going by what history has stated

Hitler- 12 years
Stalin- 30 years
EU- not even ten years.

(and I think you don't understand what an impact Greece's bankruptcy could have on the entire EU).

All of Europe's big government ideas have failed or are failing. America has been around for 235 years and I think the Europeans may be just a little bit jealous, probably ever since we left them. it's clear that Obama's strategies aren't working and that's why the Republicans want so desperately another leader. I want another leader too!!! And I almost voted for Obama, because I believed his lies.


U are full of crap,

First of its clearly pointless talking to you since you post utter teabagger nonsense, I seriously can't even comprehend how can anyone think like you.

As to you voting for Obama almost, Its so not true, You'd never vote for a black guy, especially a democrat, this is not like even funny how obvious it is. You have taabagger written across your forehead you aren't even ashamed of it.

And to continue talking to you about EU and current world economic crisis that was created by the Republican party and Regonomic doctrine you and your pal preach on this forum is waste of my and any sane person's time.

The day i take your viewpoint is the day this universe ceases to exist, hope that makes is clear.


FINALLY, someone else who sees the teabaggers on this forum. They stand out like a sore thumb. Teabaggers are like a bunch of loud-mouthed Hitlers running around the place forcing everyone to live their lives according to teabagger society rules. Teabaggers would let a person die if they had a horrible disease and didn't have health insurance. In fact, people cheered on the DEATH of someone because of lack of health insurance. That's disgusting. The mentality of these people is putrid. :angry:
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I'm a business man, that's all you need to know about me.

#68
Prolite

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... millions of people in our countries are living below the line many of us would consider the bare minimum standard of living, in many cases through no fault of their own thanks to lack of opportunities, jobs and education.

jjf3 cares nothing for these people - like most right-wingers, he believes it's completely their own fault (or the government's), and he's only interested in making things easier for the rich, the privileged, the so-called "job creators" because all he cares about is money and profits, not real people with real lives. Or am I wrong? I find it so difficult to get inside the minds of right-wingers. It seems like they genuinely don't give a fuck about the poor.


You hit the nail on the head. It's like we're living in the 18th century again with these extreme right wing nut cases.
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I'm a business man, that's all you need to know about me.

#69
jjf3

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No but the fact is, the European Union being only officially ten years old (since the name was adapted) is failing and going bankrupt already. The world is looking up to the EU, for leadership because they aren't finding it where it once was in the US. However, they aren't really finding world leadership there either. Now, China will take its turn at leadership. Governments and government systems fail, capitalism is failing and complete socialist governments have failed time and time again. Not one system has worked perfectly otherwise we would be in utopian society!

Just take a look in the history books every once in awhile like the Roman Empire for example:

The Empire relied on booty from conquered territories (this source of revenue ending, of course, with the end of Roman territorial expansion) or on a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed élite exempt from taxation. With the cessation of tribute from conquered territories, the full cost of their military machine had to be borne by the citizenry.

An economy based upon slave labor precluded a middle class with buying power. The Roman Empire produced few exportable goods. Material innovation, whether through entrepreneurialism or technological advancement, all but ended long before the final dissolution of the Empire. Meanwhile the costs of military defense and the pomp of Emperors continued. Financial needs continued to increase, but the means of meeting them steadily eroded. In the end, due to economic failure, even the armor of soldiers deteriorated and the weaponry of soldiers became so obsolete that the enemies of the Empire had better armor and weapons as well as larger forces. The decrepit social order offered so little to its subjects that many saw the barbarian invasion as liberation from onerous obligations to the ruling class.

That's where the world is going to people. And very few realizes this!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#70
KingstonDon

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No but the fact is, the European Union being only officially ten years old (since the name was adapted) is failing and going bankrupt already. The world is looking up to the EU, for leadership because they aren't finding it where it once was in the US. However, they aren't really finding world leadership there either. Now, China will take its turn at leadership. Governments and government systems fail, capitalism is failing and complete socialist governments have failed time and time again. Not one system has worked perfectly otherwise we would be in utopian society!

Just take a look in the history books every once in awhile like the Roman Empire for example:

The Empire relied on booty from conquered territories (this source of revenue ending, of course, with the end of Roman territorial expansion) or on a pattern of tax collection that drove small-scale farmers into destitution (and onto a dole that required even more exactions upon those who could not escape taxation), or into dependency upon a landed élite exempt from taxation. With the cessation of tribute from conquered territories, the full cost of their military machine had to be borne by the citizenry.

An economy based upon slave labor precluded a middle class with buying power. The Roman Empire produced few exportable goods. Material innovation, whether through entrepreneurialism or technological advancement, all but ended long before the final dissolution of the Empire. Meanwhile the costs of military defense and the pomp of Emperors continued. Financial needs continued to increase, but the means of meeting them steadily eroded. In the end, due to economic failure, even the armor of soldiers deteriorated and the weaponry of soldiers became so obsolete that the enemies of the Empire had better armor and weapons as well as larger forces. The decrepit social order offered so little to its subjects that many saw the barbarian invasion as liberation from onerous obligations to the ruling class.

That's where the world is going to people. And very few realizes this!


Once again wrong, the European union name has been in existence since 1993,

The EU isn't going bankrupt, A couple of its member states have a sovereign debt problem similar to what many US states have had in the course of history, the only thing that needs to be done is to reform the financial cohesion of the EU so the presented problem can be solved. The solutions are coming but we await the answer from economist and the member states to see what measures can be supported by all the states.

Can you honestly tell me no US state has ever gone bankrupt? It doesn't have to spell the "end" of the euro or the EU, it's just for the increasingly ignorant nationalist tendencies to be set aside and work toward a common good.

PS. There are still plenty of member states that are in a good financial situation.

Oh and guys, let's not get too personal on jjf, It is not a reasonable manner of conduct in a discussion.
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#71
jjf3

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First thank you, Don for being reasonable in your answer.

Unlike some people on here you know how to debate. Anyway, just like US though, if one country such as Greece does fail and it's looking like it might be impossible to save it, then it could be disastrous for that entire nation. I think we can all agree that if one state succeeds from the US it will be disastrous for us as well.

http://www.theaustra...f-1226138252882

Technically speaking a lot of countries are bankrupt. But the fact still remains that the US and EU are almost tied together in GDP. I point to Roh's facts here.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#72
Caiman

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Getting a bit tired of reading so many ad hominem attacks and generally disrespectful threads and posts around here, guys... we could all do with toning it down a little. This is an international forum and people are going to have wildly varying opinions, especially when it comes to culture and politics so if we disagree with each other, can we do it in a mature and appropriate manner rather than in a confrontational way which, in my experience of forums over the last decade, serves only to turn people off and drive them away. I am not singling any particular person out here, but there's plenty of examples of it in this thread. This is still a young forum finding it's way, I want everyone to be able to express their thoughts and opinions without censorship or personal attacks and I'd rather keep the moderation light and hands off.
~Jon

#73
wjfox

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This will be a dedicated thread for news and discussions about the current economic crisis. I'll start with this video, which was broadcast on BBC news this morning. A refreshingly honest interview...

#74
Craven

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Where does his confidence in treasury bonds come from? I mean when all goes to hell, who's to tell they'll be any good?
"I walk alone and do no evil, having only a few wishes, just like an elephant in the forest."

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#75
Logically Irrational

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#76
Prolite

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This will be a dedicated thread for news and discussions about the current economic crisis.

I'll start with this video, which was broadcast on BBC news this morning. A refreshingly honest interview...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v9L-t3gxzQ


This guy's a neophyte. The economy in the United States is SLOWLY recovering and will continue to do so as Europe goes through what the US went through almost 3 years ago. And China will hedge along based on the United States current economic outlook. As the US economy gets better, it is my belief that China's will get worse because of the lack of anti-dumping laws here in the USA and the USA's ability to provide local competitive products/services in a good economy. Here's another thing; as Europe's economy goes into the dumpster, European countries have been investing into the safest currency in the world: the US dollar. That's going to help stabilize the US dollar and help keep inflation down and make gasoline a bit cheaper because of better currency conversion. The United States will bring the global economic recession into a global economic healthy economy.
I'm a business man, that's all you need to know about me.

#77
Nick1984

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Just read your comment on China... WHAT THE HELL!

#78
Logically Irrational

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Here's something interesting on China:
http://english.cri.c...2702s660208.htm
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

#79
Unrequited Lust

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This will be a dedicated thread for news and discussions about the current economic crisis.

I'll start with this video, which was broadcast on BBC news this morning. A refreshingly honest interview...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v9L-t3gxzQ


This guy's a neophyte. The economy in the United States is SLOWLY recovering and will continue to do so as Europe goes through what the US went through almost 3 years ago. And China will hedge along based on the United States current economic outlook. As the US economy gets better, it is my belief that China's will get worse because of the lack of anti-dumping laws here in the USA and the USA's ability to provide local competitive products/services in a good economy. Here's another thing; as Europe's economy goes into the dumpster, European countries have been investing into the safest currency in the world: the US dollar. That's going to help stabilize the US dollar and help keep inflation down and make gasoline a bit cheaper because of better currency conversion. The United States will bring the global economic recession into a global economic healthy economy.

Keynesian bubbles don't count as wealth. It will pop, as all bubbles in the past have done.

#80
wjfox

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Those Bush tax cuts were a great idea, weren't they?


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