20 replies to this topic

[wjfox]

[ExplorerAtHeart]

Something i put together a year ago




Its time to be smart and sustainable!

[Logically Irrational]

There's one thing I've always wondered, though I may have missed it in the Venus Project stuff I've seen. How do they plan on building these cities and infrastructure if there is no money to pay workers? I know that ideally construction would be done by machines, but then you get into the issue of building the machines and robots. I imagine that before the transition to a resource-based economy, the plan to build everything would have to be decided first. I get how the economy is sustainable without money once it is established, but does the Venus Project explain just how the transition would occur?

I mean, it's not like companies would shift production to city-building robots and construction firms would create geothermal power plants everywhere based on the promise that it will eventually work out for them in the end, even if they make no money in the short term. From what I've seen, it doesn't seem like people would go for that in the current economy.

Just a though that I hope I articulated well enough.

[illykitty]

There's one thing I've always wondered, though I may have missed it in the Venus Project stuff I've seen. How do they plan on building these cities and infrastructure if there is no money to pay workers? I know that ideally construction would be done by machines, but then you get into the issue of building the machines and robots. I imagine that before the transition to a resource-based economy, the plan to build everything would have to be decided first. I get how the economy is sustainable without money once it is established, but does the Venus Project explain just how the transition would occur?

Their explanation is that it would be done by machines and 3D printing, plus people would volunteer some of their time to do certain things. A lot would be automated but obviously, you still need people to maintain the technology. Their reasoning is that people who will live in such a world will be very grateful for it and would give a little bit of time to do their part. Even if a very small % of people do it, it would be enough (if I reccall correctly). Personally, I'm not sure how true it is for people as a whole, but I would certainly volunteer a few hours per week to do it. Imagine having free access to everything. It would be incredible, but all we can do is dream about it, unfortunatly.

[Zachemc2]

This is awesome, but I don't like all the "green". Isn't this a city? If it is, they should just build vertical farms in order to conserve space. If this is a farm town, then this is just freaking epic.

[jjf3]

There's one thing I've always wondered, though I may have missed it in the Venus Project stuff I've seen. How do they plan on building these cities and infrastructure if there is no money to pay workers? I know that ideally construction would be done by machines, but then you get into the issue of building the machines and robots. I imagine that before the transition to a resource-based economy, the plan to build everything would have to be decided first. I get how the economy is sustainable without money once it is established, but does the Venus Project explain just how the transition would occur?

I mean, it's not like companies would shift production to city-building robots and construction firms would create geothermal power plants everywhere based on the promise that it will eventually work out for them in the end, even if they make no money in the short term. From what I've seen, it doesn't seem like people would go for that in the current economy.

Just a though that I hope I articulated well enough.

You did, the main problem with the Venus Project is that there is no transition period.

[twisthink]

There's one thing I've always wondered, though I may have missed it in the Venus Project stuff I've seen. How do they plan on building these cities and infrastructure if there is no money to pay workers? I know that ideally construction would be done by machines, but then you get into the issue of building the machines and robots. I imagine that before the transition to a resource-based economy, the plan to build everything would have to be decided first. I get how the economy is sustainable without money once it is established, but does the Venus Project explain just how the transition would occur?

Their explanation is that it would be done by machines and 3D printing, plus people would volunteer some of their time to do certain things. A lot would be automated but obviously, you still need people to maintain the technology. Their reasoning is that people who will live in such a world will be very grateful for it and would give a little bit of time to do their part. Even if a very small % of people do it, it would be enough (if I reccall correctly). Personally, I'm not sure how true it is for people as a whole, but I would certainly volunteer a few hours per week to do it. Imagine having free access to everything. It would be incredible, but all we can do is dream about it, unfortunatly.

Money (or some other form of currency) is not going to vanish in the near future (and by that I mean the next 800-1000 years). The replicators won't be very effective nor very complex at first and even when they will be able to build entire buildings and cities from the ground there will still be need of designers, architects, supervisors. There will also be a lot of artists and manufacturers offering things that are unique. There will always be people wanting luxury and so there will be lots providers of handmade objects or art. Only a very abrupt introduction of very effective replicators would make currency obsolete. A gradual evolution would result in a society with very few people working in factories, constructions and agriculture (less than 1%) with a lot more white collar jobs and more artistic endeavors. The poor would live off a basic stipend in standardized apartments (they will probably live far better than the middle class today) while the rich will live in large manors designed to conform with their tastes where the buildings themselves may be permanently destroyed and rebuilt by nanites to conform with the owners fantasies.

[ExplorerAtHeart]

This is awesome, but I don't like all the "green". Isn't this a city? If it is, they should just build vertical farms in order to conserve space. If this is a farm town, then this is just freaking epic.

Well, there is likely to be a variety of different types of cities due to various parameters and environment. They have basically built this city system with the forest. Perhaps this is what tropical cities will be like.

[Zachemc2]

This is awesome, but I don't like all the "green". Isn't this a city? If it is, they should just build vertical farms in order to conserve space. If this is a farm town, then this is just freaking epic.

Well, there is likely to be a variety of different types of cities due to various parameters and environment. They have basically built this city system with the forest. Perhaps this is what tropical cities will be like.

Cool. It'd be nice if Miami was like this but not New York City.

[Nick1984]

Saw reference to the Venus Project outside these forums/the web yesterday during TV footage of a Unison protest.

I smiled

[wjfox]

Money (or some other form of currency) is not going to vanish in the near future (and by that I mean the next 800-1000 years).

That seems very pessimistic.

The replicators won't be very effective nor very complex at first

But they will evolve rapidly. Technology = exponential.

and even when they will be able to build entire buildings and cities from the ground there will still be need of designers, architects, supervisors.

These types of jobs will be taken on by strong AI. In fact, we already use computers/software to help us with countless tasks. We'll have human-like AI within a few decades, combined with robots, capable of taking on all kinds of responsibilities.

Only a very abrupt introduction of very effective replicators would make currency obsolete.

Once again, technology is exponential.

[jjf3]

Money (or some other form of currency) is not going to vanish in the near future (and by that I mean the next 800-1000 years).

That seems very pessimistic.

How is currency pessimistic? It's been a way of life in some form or another since like the beginning of recorded time!!!! Who's to say that some form of measuring the value of something won't exist in the future? In effect, if you want chickens and you have a cow to trade with your neighbor than the cow and the chickens become currency. We can't exist without currency because we place value on everything including life and basic commodities. You may fulfill your basic needs rather easily, and then you will go back to wanting more! Everybody can't have the perfect life, and that's another problem with the Venus Project, or at least the transition into the Venus Project. People will be left out.

[Logically Irrational]

Money (or some other form of currency) is not going to vanish in the near future (and by that I mean the next 800-1000 years).

That seems very pessimistic.

How is currency pessimistic? It's been a way of life in some form or another since like the beginning of recorded time!!!! Who's to say that some form of measuring the value of something won't exist in the future? In effect, if you want chickens and you have a cow to trade with your neighbor than the cow and the chickens become currency. We can't exist without currency because we place value on everything including life and basic commodities. You may fulfill your basic needs rather easily, and then you will go back to wanting more! Everybody can't have the perfect life, and that's another problem with the Venus Project, or at least the transition into the Venus Project. People will be left out.

Obviously we'll never lose currency in the sense of applying value to things, because we'll always need things, or at least want things. I think we'll just loose standard currency that doesn't have value in it iself, such as paper money. The economy would be based on the value of useful things.

I do agree that the transition will be very difficult. This is one of my biggest complaints with Zeitgeist: Moving Forward: the way it shows a resource-based economy replacing capitalism and free markets because everyone just said "screw this." I know it was a dramatization, but I think they blew it off as too easy. I really like the Venus Project, but I think it will take quite a bit more thought into just how we'll get there.

[Roh234]

Currency will never be replaced. The numerical store of value is too convinent to let go.

[truthiness]

I do agree that the transition will be very difficult. This is one of my biggest complaints with Zeitgeist: Moving Forward: the way it shows a resource-based economy replacing capitalism and free markets because everyone just said "screw this." I know it was a dramatization, but I think they blew it off as too easy. I really like the Venus Project, but I think it will take quite a bit more thought into just how we'll get there.

I agree... The Zeitgeist "movement" reminds me a bit of the underpants gnomes...

Step one: Steal underpants
Step two: ?????
Step three: Profit!

[jjf3]

Oh really? The Zeitgeist Movement stated that they had no profit mind-set just wanting to spread there word. But they do make enough money to make three movies now coming out with a fourth. I always agree with about half of what they say. The third film was just eh.... The first one was amazing as they put together some stuff into a documentary that has never been done before!!!!

[truthiness]

Metaphorical misfire, I'm afraid... It's just that they seem to have no Step Two... Step One is protest and organize, and that's well and good... Step Three is the Resource-based Economy... Step Two is ?????

[jjf3]

Yes exactly how will we convert to the venus project??? Electric cars? I think there needs to be a lot more information than that!

hello the Venus Project is all about making money too!!!! They are against the capitalist system but yet, they are using it pretty well for their advantage.

A project supporting capitalism wouldn't be allowed to exist in the Venus Project world would it?

[ExplorerAtHeart]

Just to let you guys the Zeitgeist movement and the Venus project split up a while ago due to differences.

Anyway, they have to run in the capitalist system to say alive. They are wholly dependent on the current system despite imagining methods beyond it.

A project supporting capitalism wouldn't be allowed to exist in the Venus Project world would it?

That would be like a project in this capitalist system supporting a transition to a traditional economy.

This is the 'evolutionary' scale mabe

Traditional > Command > Market > ???

[jjf3]

Oh you hear about plans for complete economic reform but it never happens. Capitalism is too stuck in this system for it to ever really happen. Will the rich suddenly give up all their money? I don't think so. Will businesses be reformed to non-existence? It's too much of a way of life for many, many, many people right now.