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Ukraine Conflict


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#1
MarcZ

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BreakingReports coming in police in Ukraine have cleared pro-EU rallies with force, beating protesters as they did so...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25164990

 

http://www.reuters.c...&videoChannel=1

 

http://www.latimes.c...y#axzz2m6BJFfxZ

 

Sounds to me like Yanukovich is taking no chances of another revolution like 2004 and transitioning Ukraine towards an authoritarian thugocracy like Russia/Belarus.



#2
tierbook

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If Yanukovich was kicked out in a revolution before how is he in power again?



#3
Lunix688

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This is a very interesting story - I'm really curious to how this will end; and it would be a tragedy if Ukraine were to fall towards authoritarianism. 


"Liberterianism is a mental disease. A national health crisis and a threat to the future of this country...Worse than the threat from terrorism, asteroids, disease and yes global warming.
It is mindless anti-government idiocy. If it isn't turned back I predict the end of this country as a world power. Simply put the need to educate our entire population like any sane country is sen as wrong by the cult that practice this foolish idiocy. So is simple workers rights, child labor and every other sane policy of the modern world."
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-Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism
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#4
Futurist

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If Yanukovich was kicked out in a revolution before how is he in power again?

He wasn't kicked out. His election in 2004 was invalidated due to fraud, but he won an election which was apparently (more) free and fair in 2010, which is why he is in power right now.



#5
MarcZ

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If Yanukovich was kicked out in a revolution before how is he in power again?

He wasn't kicked out. His election in 2004 was invalidated due to fraud, but he won an election which was apparently (more) free and fair in 2010, which is why he is in power right now.

 

 

Which coincided with the Orange Revolution.



#6
Futurist

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If Yanukovich was kicked out in a revolution before how is he in power again?

He wasn't kicked out. His election in 2004 was invalidated due to fraud, but he won an election which was apparently (more) free and fair in 2010, which is why he is in power right now.

Which coincided with the Orange Revolution.

Sure, but he was never inaugurated in 2004/2005. He only became the President of Ukraine for the first time in 2010.



#7
TheComrade

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it would be a tragedy if Ukraine were to fall towards authoritarianism. 

 

This whole story is not about democracy vs authoritarianism, this is rather about economics and geopolitics. Ukraine just too long tried to sit on two chairs at the same time: get all the benefits from preferential trade with both Russia & EU. Finally, Putin lost any patience and told them it will not more work that way: you, dear Ukrainians, will either with us or will have somehow survive without us... and since Ukrainian economy heavily dependant from Russia, while association with EU will not bring them any benefits, but will cause even more of "temporary" troubles (one of EU demands was to "optimize" the Ukrainian economy by further cutting the social spendings), Yanukovich had no choise. Russia won this battle, at least at the moment.


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#8
MarcZ

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^ So a president defying the majority of his citizen's wishes and then trying to stifle the opposition is not the beginning of a march towards authoritarianism? I beg to differ!



#9
TheComrade

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^ So a president defying the majority of his citizen's wishes and then trying to stifle the opposition is not the beginning of a march towards authoritarianism? I beg to differ!

 

Majority of citizens? I highly doubt it. At least half of Ukraine (eastern half) is strongly pro-Russian while the western part is, indeed, very hateful towards Russia. Besides, there were also a lot of pro-Russian rallies and demonstrations, completely ignored by western media... for some unknown reason  :biggrin:



#10
Time_Traveller

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^ So a president defying the majority of his citizen's wishes and then trying to stifle the opposition is not the beginning of a march towards authoritarianism? I beg to differ!

 

Majority of citizens? I highly doubt it. At least half of Ukraine (eastern half) is strongly pro-Russian while the western part is, indeed, very hateful towards Russia. Besides, there were also a lot of pro-Russian rallies and demonstrations, completely ignored by western media... for some unknown reason  :biggrin:

 

 

Well i think that this rate Ukraine will split into, West and East Ukraine wouldn't it?


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#11
Leptictidium

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^ So a president defying the majority of his citizen's wishes and then trying to stifle the opposition is not the beginning of a march towards authoritarianism? I beg to differ!

 

Majority of citizens?

That's what the polls say.



#12
TheComrade

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Majority of citizens?

That's what the polls say.

 

Your link? Here is my link (in Russian):

 

http://ria.ru/world/.../979829331.html

 
Key phrase:
 
"Число сторонников вступления Украины в Евросоюз и в Таможенный союз сегодня практически одинаково и составляет около 40%, говорится в пресс-релизе Киевского международного института статистики (КМИС)"
 
"The number of supporters of Ukraine's joining to EU is practically equall to number of supporters of Customs Union - around 40%, according to a press release from the Kiev International Institute of Statistics (KIIS)"


#13
MarcZ

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Majority of citizens?

That's what the polls say.

 

Your link? Here is my link (in Russian):

 

http://ria.ru/world/.../979829331.html

 
Key phrase:
 
"Число сторонников вступления Украины в Евросоюз и в Таможенный союз сегодня практически одинаково и составляет около 40%, говорится в пресс-релизе Киевского международного института статистики (КМИС)"
 
"The number of supporters of Ukraine's joining to EU is practically equall to number of supporters of Customs Union - around 40%, according to a press release from the Kiev International Institute of Statistics (KIIS)"

 

 

I take all polls from the Russian media with skepticism, as Russian media is highly influenced by the Kremlin. Some of the polls I've seen have suggested about 60% pro to 40% against. The latest one shows 40% some favour Europe, whilst 15%ish favour Russia. The only polls I have found which suggest the population wants to join Russia, are either from the Russian media, or from pro-government Ukrainian sources.

 

http://www.prnewswir...-232350411.html

http://www.google.co...84-fcc8071ee8bd



#14
Leptictidium

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I take all polls from the Russian media with skepticism, as Russian media is highly influenced by the Kremlin. Some of the polls I've seen have suggested about 60% pro to 40% against. The latest one shows 40% some favour Europe, whilst 15%ish favour Russia. The only polls I have found which suggest the population wants to join Russia, are either from the Russian media, or from pro-government Ukrainian sources.

 

http://www.prnewswir...-232350411.html

http://www.google.co...84-fcc8071ee8bd

 

Exactly.



#15
TheComrade

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I take all polls from the Russian media with skepticism, as Russian media is highly influenced by the Kremlin... either from the Russian media, or from pro-government Ukrainian sources.

 

Yes, it's your right. But let me to be the same suspicious about everything coming from western media as well as from Ukrainian opposition (both are clearly anti-Russian biased in this case).



#16
MarcZ

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I take all polls from the Russian media with skepticism, as Russian media is highly influenced by the Kremlin... either from the Russian media, or from pro-government Ukrainian sources.

 

Yes, it's your right. But let me to be the same suspicious about everything coming from western media as well as from Ukrainian opposition (both are clearly anti-Russian biased in this case).

 

 

Fair enough, all depends on your perspective. 



#17
Craven

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Sounds to me like Yanukovich is taking no chances of another revolution like 2004 and transitioning Ukraine towards an authoritarian thugocracy like Russia/Belarus.

 

And if few thousand people protest and overthrow goverment of country of over 45 mln people then what is that? It sure isn't democracy in my book.  


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#18
Raklian

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Ukraine looks to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

I wish the Ukrainians well.


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#19
TheComrade

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I decided to revive this thread. This day may become crucial for Ukrainian "revolution". Hot news (1 hour ago): it seems Yanukovych finally braced himself to disperse the protesters by force:

 

http://www.mk.ru/pol...et-shturma.html

 

in Russian, but in this case i'd not say this article was "influenced by Kremlin". 

 

"Military blocked all the approaches to the square, shops were closed, everyone is waiting for the assault. Yanukovych held a meeting with the security forces, which have decided to send the situation "back into constitutional order", but it is still unknown how exactly...

...There are reports that the "Berkut" (Ukrainian special forces) stormed the head office of "Batkivshina" party...

...After some time, RIA Novosti reported that law enforcement officers kicked almost all the protesters out from the government buildings in central Kiev, Ukraine. Police did not use force and lethal weapons on the protesters...
...Thus, Internal troops dismantled almost all the barricades, set by protesters...
...Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs reported that so-called "points of self-defense" have armed the protesters with shovels and other stuff that can be used to cause bodily harm...
...Law enforcers will react to any offense, according to current laws - warns police..."
 
It seems this day/night in Kiev will be hot.
 
===
PS ...fight began, article was changed. I'm not going to translate this again. Those who really interested may use google translator to get the idea...


#20
Mashallah

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^ So a president defying the majority of his citizen's wishes and then trying to stifle the opposition is not the beginning of a march towards authoritarianism? I beg to differ!

He knows that the EUassociation would be like an economical suicide for Ukraine and he doesn't want that to happen. The whole protest is emotional, not rational.

 

 

 

 

 

Majority of citizens?

That's what the polls say.

 

Your link? Here is my link (in Russian):

 

http://ria.ru/world/.../979829331.html

 
Key phrase:
 
"Число сторонников вступления Украины в Евросоюз и в Таможенный союз сегодня практически одинаково и составляет около 40%, говорится в пресс-релизе Киевского международного института статистики (КМИС)"
 
"The number of supporters of Ukraine's joining to EU is practically equall to number of supporters of Customs Union - around 40%, according to a press release from the Kiev International Institute of Statistics (KIIS)"

 

 

I take all polls from the Russian media with skepticism, as Russian media is highly influenced by the Kremlin. Some of the polls I've seen have suggested about 60% pro to 40% against. The latest one shows 40% some favour Europe, whilst 15%ish favour Russia. The only polls I have found which suggest the population wants to join Russia, are either from the Russian media, or from pro-government Ukrainian sources.

 

http://www.prnewswir...-232350411.html

http://www.google.co...84-fcc8071ee8bd

 

And why do you assume that the western media is unbiased?


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

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