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Your PERSONAL vision of the future


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#21
Ru1138

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For most of human history, humans were primitive. Now we're not.


That's the thing though, socio-economic systems are not static, they change over time. It's silly to assume that work will be as necessary for survival in the future as it is now.

 

Also, I'm curious as to why you're so hot for capitalism. Considering that for most of its reign most people were miserable and class mobility was low, I don't know why anyone in their right mind would support such a system if they were in the middle to lower classes.

 

And before you say "post WWII", that was an exception that proved the rule as most of the former economic powerhouses were bombed to oblivion and thus gave everyone decent paying work in reconstruction. Now we're slipping back into capitalism that's like the pre-WWII era. Quite honestly, it's time to put it to rest. It's given us great things, but it's starting to outlive its usefulness.


What difference does it make?


#22
kjaggard

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the works of Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Chikovsky, Asimov, Sun Tzu, and Roddenberry are all bodies of art.

 

The Parthenon, The Sistine Chapel, The statue of Liberty, the 'Sagrada Familia', The sphinx and more are works of art.

 

The transition from the bronze age to the iron age happened in the hands art those who practiced the art of metallurgy. songs, poems and grand speeches inspire movements and instill resiliance in those seeking a better world ()

 

if it has moved humanity up from those primatives you proclaim we have surpassed that it has at it's foundations an art. Art is the currency of cultural advancment, it is the means by which we test the boundaries of what is possible and imagine it's impact on the future.


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Live content within small means. Seek elegance rather than luxury, Grace over fashion and wealth over riches.
Listen to clouds and mountains, children and sages. Act bravely, think boldly.
Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.

#23
JCO

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A real-life example: consider the famous-for-being-famous-and-inheriting-millions types that are around today. How many of them actually do anything for humanity?

 

Gates, Buffett, Rockefeller...

 

There is a human urge to want to leave something behind of worth. Many who grow up wealthy want to leave behind more than more possessions. As for your comment about "a lot of people will do nothing productive" can you tell me what is so "productive" about what most people do. Almost everyone is involved with producing and marketing disposable goods.

 

I suspect my work history is a bit longer and likely more varied than you. I know nothing that I have done that was part of my job description has ever produced anything with lasting value. So what do you do that is so "Productive"?


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#24
Jakob

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Also, I'm curious as to why you're so hot for capitalism.

Because I want to be successful (not just to survive) and I can't exactly do that if capitalism falls. I'll just be left with nothing to do and just enough to survive, and no way to make more.

 

 

Considering that for most of its reign most people were miserable and class mobility was low

It isn't now.

 

 

I don't know why anyone in their right mind would support such a system if they were in the middle to lower classes.

I think it works for the middle classes as well. It's only those who can't or won't work that don't do well.

 

 

the works of Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Chikovsky, Asimov, Sun Tzu, and Roddenberry are all bodies of art.

 

The Parthenon, The Sistine Chapel, The statue of Liberty, the 'Sagrada Familia', The sphinx and more are works of art.

No one is denying that. Just imagine if all the effort put into those was put into scientific and technological advancement. We'd likely be a few years ahead today.

 

The transition from the bronze age to the iron age happened in the hands art those who practiced the art of metallurgy.

That's technology or science, not art.

 

 

songs, poems and grand speeches inspire movements and instill resiliance in those seeking a better world

Um, yeah, the Civil Rights Movement was good, but practical and logical writings would do even better at changing things than songs and poems IMHO.

 

 

if it has moved humanity up from those primatives you proclaim we have surpassed that it has at it's foundations an art. Art is the currency of cultural advancment, it is the means by which we test the boundaries of what is possible and imagine it's impact on the future.

[citation needed]

 

If all the energy that we put into art was put into science over the ages, humans could well be traveling to the stars by now.

 

 

There is a human urge to want to leave something behind of worth. Many who grow up wealthy want to leave behind more than more possessions. As for your comment about "a lot of people will do nothing productive" can you tell me what is so "productive" about what most people do. Almost everyone is involved with producing and marketing disposable goods.

I'm talking about the STEM fields, where people contribute the most to humanity. They'll eventually be the only occupations left, I suppose, given all the automation going on.

 

 


I suspect my work history is a bit longer and likely more varied than you.

Almost certainly true.

 

 

 

 

So what do you do that is so "Productive"?

Nothing yet. Eventually computer programming.



#25
Ru1138

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Considering that for most of its reign most people were miserable and class mobility was low

It isn't now.

 


Way to ignore my "returning to pre-WWII form" comment. As for being successful, my vision doesn't prevent that. I like to call it a "flexconomy" because people who want to work are free to work while people who don't don't have to.


What difference does it make?


#26
Spacekitty

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Considering that for most of its reign most people were miserable and class mobility was low

It isn't now.

 


Way to ignore my "returning to pre-WWII form" comment. As for being successful, my vision doesn't prevent that. I like to call it a "flexconomy" because people who want to work are free to work while people who don't don't have to.

 

 

Thats actually  a really good starting point for instigating a resource based economy of sorts. Though if it were to work the government and large groups would have to have very little power over resources. Hmmmm

 

Anyway, I'm with you RU. A flexconomy sounds like something the world desperately needs right now, along with Tech we dont just throw away when were done with it. Hopefully ARA and things like it will change that issue. Recycling in the future wouldnt hurt with an upgrade. Imagine large scale use of baby daipers in the production of energy. A great way to remove a few foul odors if it were used in most houses.

 

But yeah, having enough without the need to work sounds good.

 

Quick query, with money, who controls the total amount in the world? and is it going up? down? or staying the same? how is it generated? and I dont mean by printing it. And if just making more money is the solution to government debt why dont governments make the money to pay off their debts?


I will instigate the singularity!


#27
JCO

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the works of Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Chikovsky, Asimov, Sun Tzu, and Roddenberry are all bodies of art.

 

The Parthenon, The Sistine Chapel, The statue of Liberty, the 'Sagrada Familia', The sphinx and more are works of art.

No one is denying that. Just imagine if all the effort put into those was put into scientific and technological advancement. We'd likely be a few years ahead today.

 

 

Actually many of these works drove innovation. Most of the latter were engineering marvels that developed methods that later enabled more practical projects. Most of the effort of science goes into confirming information and resolving the details. Art strives to do things entirely new. The monitor you read this on owes a lot to the pointillist school of painting.


Confirmed Agnostic - I know that I don't know for sure and I am almost certain no one else does either.


#28
kjaggard

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language is based on abstract concepts and symbolism, things derived from philosophy and interpretation of the natural world through personal human frames of reference and recombined in new ways to expand understanding and relate to the human experience in a meaningful way.

 

that is at it's most fundamental level what art is. sciences follow after art, we must first see beauty and wonder in the star scape of the sky and derive from it a meaning worth exploring, thus building abstraction of our relations to it. cattle can see the night sky, but never wonder about it or marvel about it take it in and ponder it and their place within the greater cosmos. those are the muscles which art flex.

 

Mathmatics follows art. again abstraction of value without items designated as containing that value uses those muscles. be it fractal, sacred geometry, contemplation of infinities, or simply 5x+3=9 (where none of it is real substantive existing things, but simply abstractions of universal truths that relate to how the universe works, a creative approach to understanding the world, which is important as residents of it who contemplate it more than goldfish do).

 

Nietzsche is the inspiration of much of Frued who founded the schools of psychoanalysis which later inspired much further advancment in neurosciences all predicated on the probing the depths of the thinking animal that is man to better understand ourselves and our place within the wider cosmos. Nietzsche was a philosopher, who used narrative and story formats to explore the nature of the human being.

 

The ancient greek included history, math, and sciences under the guiding hand of the muses; those emobyments of and inspirers of creative and artistic aspects of existence.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_arts


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Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.

#29
Ru1138

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Thats actually  a really good starting point for instigating a resource based economy of sorts. Though if it were to work the government and large groups would have to have very little power over resources. Hmmmm
 
Anyway, I'm with you RU. A flexconomy sounds like something the world desperately needs right now, along with Tech we dont just throw away when were done with it. Hopefully ARA and things like it will change that issue. Recycling in the future wouldnt hurt with an upgrade. Imagine large scale use of baby daipers in the production of energy. A great way to remove a few foul odors if it were used in most houses.
 
But yeah, having enough without the need to work sounds good.
 
Quick query, with money, who controls the total amount in the world? and is it going up? down? or staying the same? how is it generated? and I dont mean by printing it. And if just making more money is the solution to government debt why dont governments make the money to pay off their debts?


Thanks. :)

As for the money thing, I don't have all the answers but I'll do my best to answer your questions. For control of amount, maybe something like the Federal Reserve would work. How much depends on whether controlled inflation, deflation or stasis is desired. It's probably best to generate it by producing value in any form, art, technology, etc.

I've been thinking about the idea of a flexconomy for a bit now. Here's the nitty-gritty of it. Essentially it's supported by the intersection of three particular things: 1. gratis products for basic use, 2. basic income or something like the RICH economy, and 3. AI and robotics.

 

The gratis products provide basic necessities like food, water, energy and sanitation. BI or RICH covers anything that gratis products don't. People who want to supplement their income or otherwise want meaningful work to do can choose a job they want to do. The AI and robotics systems will make up for labor shortfalls in any industries.

 

Do I make sense? 


What difference does it make?


#30
JCO

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Quick query, with money, who controls the total amount in the world? and is it going up? down? or staying the same? how is it generated? and I dont mean by printing it. And if just making more money is the solution to government debt why dont governments make the money to pay off their debts?

 

 

The supply of 'money' is constantly increasing. Governments control the supply of physical currency but producing currency without some basis of its value would lead to devaluing of the overall currency. I think a good link for getting some understanding of how money works now is http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Fiat_money


Confirmed Agnostic - I know that I don't know for sure and I am almost certain no one else does either.


#31
Unity

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#32
Maximus

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Jakob is the ultimate embodiment of what we fear in an A.I.; if it isn't logical or scientific, it must be destroyed. Art is what makes us human. According to you, the only jobs worth having (and consequently the only people of value) in this world are scientific researchers. Doctors don't help advance humanity, they heal us; therefore they are worthless. Most engineers work in factories or on public projects which don't exactly help advance humanity; again, worthless according to you. In fact most of what we humans do is worthless according to you. Not only is that naive, it is cruel and as I said before, reminiscent of an A.I. working to stamp out humanity for the greater good.


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#33
Spacekitty

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Jakob is the ultimate embodiment of what we fear in an A.I.; if it isn't logical or scientific, it must be destroyed. Art is what makes us human. According to you, the only jobs worth having (and consequently the only people of value) in this world are scientific researchers. Doctors don't help advance humanity, they heal us; therefore they are worthless. Most engineers work in factories or on public projects which don't exactly help advance humanity; again, worthless according to you. In fact most of what we humans do is worthless according to you. Not only is that naive, it is cruel and as I said before, reminiscent of an A.I. working to stamp out humanity for the greater good.

 

Max, common, thats a little harsh, were only here to provide our opinions on what the future will be like and  discuss how  its evolving  based on current events. If  you want to be a capitalist thats fine, Who cares? If you place value on scientists who cares? If  you hate the mona lisa who cares? We're futurists here, not economists and artists. Sure art will be one  of the most meaningful pursuits for a career in the future. But so will the doctors the  scientists and the people who babysitter teach your kids.

 

Jakob never said anything about hating art or doctors and they are just as meaningful as the other.


I will instigate the singularity!


#34
Maximus

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I realize now I sounded like quite a dick there, but I still stand by what I said. He was basically saying that anything that doesn't advance science/technology is useless; I find that kind of offensive.


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#35
JCO

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I think this thread has wandered rather far for what the target was. Maybe we should try rebooting it if anyone is still interested?


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Confirmed Agnostic - I know that I don't know for sure and I am almost certain no one else does either.


#36
Unity

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My personal vision of the future is that it will be simple but good. People will focus more on harmony with nature and in their communities and take advantage of simple pleasures that surround them now but that they cannot see because they start their day in a box, then use a box to drive to another box, where they make boxes to sell to people in other boxes and then wrap up in other boxes. When the economy is automated there will be a time of wandering where people will have to redefine their meaning outside of material things and work. There will be a flourishing of culture, the arts, intellectual debate and thought, and a return to what makes us most conscious and brings out our best. This of course may take several thousand years and other unpleasantness that I hope we can avoid, but it is inevitable because it is the only sustainable way for organic computation to flourish ♥

#37
TheShrike

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Well this is a toughie.  There are so many possibilities that it's kind of hard to choose.  Personally I really love John Smart's Transcension Hypothesis.  Although it's just  a theory with no proof to it, I still think it makes a lot of sense in most cases.  There is that part of me, however, that would still love to travel into outer space and have a Star Trek style society, but I realize that this could easily be done in VR.  Of course, human motivation and desire may long be dead by the time we left the physical universe behind, so it's honestly tough to say.  I think that humanity as we know it will continue to exist for a relatively short time in cosmic terms.  Either we pass the torch on to our creations or we join them.  I would try and be creative about this, but I can't really fathom what such a society would even do.  When ever one is discussing the future it is always what we would want to do then, not what will actually happen.  It is this that makes it so difficult to imagine.  I think this is why many science fiction writers tend to stick to the tried and true Space Opera, because it is easy to conceptualize and understand, whereas a future that involves a singularity can be imagined but is almost certainly incorrect or only partially correct.  


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#38
Zeitgeist123

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Some futurists think that nanotechnology will be ubiquitous around 2050 to 2100, maybe even earlier. So i think by 3000, we are past beyond that. 


“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#39
Jakob

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I hope for a future where everyone makes scientific and technological contributions, causing humanity to advance. Everyone will be duly rewarded for their work, with the most innovative being the wealthiest and the lazy slackers being removed from the system, directly or indirectly. The culture will promote advancements in science and technology, hard work, and contribution to society above all else. Those who are born into money will be expected to do something useful with it, but nobody is told what to do with their money. Crime will be nonexistent since every square millimeter will be monitored and any criminals can be removed from society and punished long before they do any harm. War will be nonexistent since there will be one nation for all of humanity. Those who are weak and act on animal instincts will be mocked and ostracized by the culture, while those who act on logic and reason will be respected.

 

Humans will still reign supreme in this utopian future. AI will exist, but we will not have let it ruin our lives. Sure, robots will be doing the menial work, but the tasks requiring intelligence and creativity are solely done by humans. The sentient AI will serve as guides and advisers instead of kings. They can provide valuable information, but the leaders are not forced to listen to them.

 

We will be reaching the stars and best of all, we'll be doing it under our own power. We will change worlds, for the good of humanity.

 

 

 

Sadly, the exact opposite will probably happen. :-(



#40
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I hope for a future where everyone makes scientific and technological contributions, causing humanity to advance. Everyone will be duly rewarded for their work, with the most innovative being the wealthiest and the lazy slackers being removed from the system, directly or indirectly. 

 

I prefer public execution as a method.


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