74 replies to this topic

[wjfox]

Some cool interactive maps -

http://features.pewf...lation-graphic/

My prediction for 2050 is wrong and will need changing. Can't believe they'll reach 20% of Europe's population by then. 10% maybe... but certainly not 20%. That'll teach me for using the Telegraph as a reference.

[Shimmy]

As far as I know your prediciton can't be "wrong" until 2050. That particular website doesn't really look like a definitive source for accurate predictions. ps. When does it become socially acceptable to suggest starting to kill them all? I'm guessing in the next 20 years.

[wjfox]

As far as I know your prediciton can't be "wrong" until 2050. That particular website doesn't really look like a definitive source for accurate predictions.
ps. When does it become socially acceptable to suggest starting to kill them all? I'm guessing in the next 20 years.

Somehow, I think the Pew Research Center is a more accurate and respected source than a random Torygraph Telegraph article.

Killing all Muslims in 20 years? Are you on drugs?

[KingstonDon]

As far as I know your prediciton can't be "wrong" until 2050. That particular website doesn't really look like a definitive source for accurate predictions.
ps. When does it become socially acceptable to suggest starting to kill them all? I'm guessing in the next 20 years.

Somehow, I think the Pew Research Center is a more accurate and respected source than a random Torygraph Telegraph article.

Killing all Muslims in 20 years? Are you on drugs?

Kind of reminds me of the 20th century eugenic therapies in the US.

"Oh look we have a problem with a section of the population!"
-> "Well lets get rid of them"

It's a revolting thought. I fear islamophobes and right-wing extremists will get even more prominent as the muslim population in Europe grows. Not that the rise of the far right hasn't been noticeable enough in recent times.

[jjf3]

I wonder if anybody here has ever studied Islam? They are more extreme than the right wing of America FYI. They do all of their "activities" based on their religious mythology. The Jihad is strong in Muslim countries. They want to ignite a religious war against any non-Muslim believers. Now, of course not all Muslims want this just the extremists, and unfortunately there are a lot of them. So when the "right-wing" talk about how there is a Muslim problem, or Muslims attacked us on 9/11. They are right in the context that the extreme Muslims play in this world! So to even suggest that the the right wing is crazy for wanting to protect ourselves from Muslim extremists is revolting in itself! Your not going to see Rick Perry strap a bomb to his chest in the name of Christianity or hire someone to do so. C'mon! Christians, while some are extreme, have grown up from that sort of nonsense we did in the Crusades. The extreme Muslims have not. So no, right-wing Americans are not more of a problem than the extreme Muslims! Ok if getting rid of them is not the answer what is? The left finds it difficult to reason with right wing religious Americans, how do you expect to talk to extreme Muslims who want to kill America and everything it stands for? You just cannot talk to these people. That's why we are hunting down all of AL-Qaeda's leaders with drones (which is more preferable than full out wars-- even with collateral damage). I find it ironic that you would stand with the extreme Muslims but then call most Christians Idiotic and Ignorant. The Contradictions of the left will always amaze me.

Edited by jjf3, 21 December 2011 - 03:52 PM.

[KingstonDon]

While I am no islamophile, I will stand up against misconceptions of Islam.


1. There are alot of Muslim extremists? Tell me boy, what is alot? What is your source?

2. There is no "muslim" problem, there is an extremist problem. An increase in muslim population in for example Europe doesn't mean we are "opening" ourselves to
attack. Just as natives will do heinous acts out of ideology, so will muslims do heinous acts out of ideology.
To target muslims is however alot easier for the right-wing now. Any deed by a person who isn't native is more likely to be mentioned in the media.
Who's next? Jews again? It's always convenient to have a scapegoat.

3. You dare say one extremist is not as bad as the other? Fool, both are equally as "bad". Ofcourse you might not mind right-wing american extremists as much because you wouldn't be targeted by their hatred for anyone who doesn't fit their caucus' profile. But to me both are an equal threat to Human Rights.

+ I wasn't really referring to right-wing extremists in the US, I was talking about Europe...


4. Christians grew out of that nonsense eh?

- As we speak children and teens around the world fear telling their christian parents they're atheists.
- As we speak people around the world fear telling their christian parents and cohorts they're gay.
- As we speak somewhere on this planet a Christian is most likely murdering a muslim and vice versa.

http://en.wikipedia....tion_of_Muslims

Don't be too easy to pass judgement on that which you have very little knowledge of jjf, some of it may not affect you but that doesn't make it any less threatening.

Your not going to see Rick Perry strap a bomb to his chest in the name of Christianity or hire someone to do so.

Quit the bullshit boy.
I could just as well swap that name with that of any political right-wing presidential candidate in the Muslim world. There's more to extremism than religion and conviction.

I'll try to ignore your americocentrism...
But the answer to extremism could be to find out and combat what causes it. To continue killing people with an "idea" is not sustainable.
We need to know who, why and what causes them to turn to that idea and why a few of those decide to put those ideas into practice.
We also need to do our best to educate the world, because unfortunately there are many lies, misconceptions and conspiracies that uneducated people tend to believe in.

-> Uneducated people usually = poor people, these usually = mental health problems/psychological problems = gullability at times, which when it all comes together in a hot soup of ignorance & hype could lead to extremism ( as a rough example)

As an example, there are many communists in the USA. Communism is an idea. Only a few with that idea would actually bring to practice their idea and try to make it happen with violence.

Edited by KingstonDon, 21 December 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[KingstonDon]

As an example, there are many communists in the USA. Communism is an idea. Only a few with that idea would actually bring to practice their idea and try to make it happen with violence.

Does this mean we have a "commie" problem?
No it doesn't, It means we have an extremist problem.

[jjf3]

Yes, there is a Muslim extremist problem. We already know why they do what they do. It's based off of religious mythology, and there are many facts to back this up. Of course the biggest one being that Bin Laden targeted USA in the name of Allah. But I guess that's a conspiracy theory huh? We don't have a "commie" problem because they are a relatively small group of people with little political power. Same with any other small religious cult or political party. We can't kill an idea no and I agree with that, but we can kill the leaders of the movement and show them how wrong they were to attack our country in the name of their religion. Wake up! The very people you support want to kill Gays and Atheists too! At least Christians are pretty tolerant of them. Christians aren't going to kill their relatives if they find out they are atheists that argument was very weak. The jihad/extreme Muslim idea is to kill Americans to spread Islam just like we do the same thing to spread democracy. Your definition of extremist will mean that everyone is extreme and thus would destroy freedom of speech. Which not everyone has, especially in the Muslim world. As my father says, "everyone is crazy different."

Edited by jjf3, 21 December 2011 - 04:54 PM.

[KingstonDon]

Once again you're a specialist at misinterpreting messages. ^^

If it is my fault then I apologize, but look:

try to make it happen with violence.

It means we have an extremist problem.

Unless you're saying that you too would like to make your conservative wishes law by means of violence?

Edited by KingstonDon, 21 December 2011 - 04:52 PM.

[jjf3]

Your not getting it are you? You are insisting that because these people attacked us on 9/11 we shouldn't have done anything about it? We should have studied them and figured out why they did this and sit down and talk to them about it? That is one of the worst foreign policy practices! Lolz. Psycho-babble doesn't work on terrorists who hate our country based on their religious mythology and our ideals! You can't make extremists change their minds.

Edited by jjf3, 21 December 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[KingstonDon]

Wake up! The very people you support want to kill Gays and Atheists too! At least Christians are pretty tolerant of them. The jihad/extreme Muslim idea is to kill Americans to spread Islam just like we do the same thing to spread democracy. Your definition of extremist will mean that everyone is extreme and thus would destroy freedom of speech. As my father says, "everyone is crazy different."

Ofcourse some do, but to act all holier-than-thou because you happen to be able to see things from the POV of a christian majority country and christian upbringing.

Are you kidding me? "At least christians are pretty tolerant of them?"
Are you that ignorant? Some christians are tolerant of them, others aren't, just like muslims, just like other religious people, some will & some won't.

It's a fool's statement to say "At least christians are pretty tolerant of them", shows you have no concept and understanding of the world, human nature and numerous other things of great importance.
I didn't actually "define" extremist but only mentioned a few properties consequential to my example. Unlike many countries I don't believe in legislating against the actual extremist idea, because the idea still lingers. If a group of communists were professing their beliefs in the town square, I couldn't care less. If they were however promoting violence against those who don't believe what they do, then I would take action.
Don't thus assume the properties I named of extremists would destroy freedom of speech.

[KingstonDon]

Your not getting it are you? You are insisting that because these people attacked us on 9/11 we shouldn't have done anything about it? We should have studied them and figured out why they did this and sit down and talk to them about it? That is one of the worst foreign policy practices! Lolz. Psycho-babble doesn't work on terrorists who hate our country based on their religious mythology and our ideals! You can't make extremists change their minds.

No, what I'm saying is that seeing as you're there anyway for whatever reason, you should take the time to see why extremism was/is so popular there.
Religious mythology isn't the only thing either. Hundreds of millions of muslims have the same faith but they do not resort to such actions.
There's no total homogenity in islamic culture either, there are many more variables. Instead of being gung-ho, study those so you can end it in a sustainable manner.

[Craven]

As always extreme positions are not right. Not all muslims are bad terrorirsts, but I don't think it's reasonable to tell ourselves that their religion is just like all others. No it's not. It's much closer to christianity from times of crusades. But that's a weak justification. It's not 1444 anymore. It's 2011 and there's a serious issue with large group of muslims.

[jjf3]

So you would take action against the extremists huh? Muslim extremists attacked us on 9/11 in the name of their God spreading their religious mythology onto others! That is a FACT! So how do you propose we end the problem in a sustainable manner? Talking won't help, education won't help because they'll claim it has American Propaganda as they do. They don't listen to reason or logic or facts. They are worse than the most extreme groups in the USA. Gays and Atheists are not welcome in the Muslim world. That is a FACT too. Modern Muslims might tolerate them sure, butIn the backwards Muslim world it happens all the time! Especially with women. Women rights there are horrible!!! And that is based on extreme religious mythology. We in the US believe that the Muslims should grow up out of that type of extremism and I would think most liberals would be on board with that. It is only through their own diluted hierarchy and activist government leaders that they even resort to such tactics. We spread lies and conspiracy theories about Muslims but they do the same thing about America too!

[Craven]

Simple solution - outlaw ALL religion, let people start using THEIR FUCKING BRAINS.
Just think p1
Just think p2

[jjf3]

Simple solution - outlaw ALL religion, let people start using THEIR FUCKING BRAINS.
Just think p1
Just think p2

Unfortunately that is not a practical solution. Billions of people believe in some sort of religion. Atheists are very low on the totem poll.

[truthiness]

So... we can all agree then that an increasing Muslim population in Europe and America is a good thing, then, yes? An increased population of Muslims raised in a multi-cultural climate exposed to people of various religious backgrounds in an environment where free speech and freedom of religious choice are cherished rights ought to do two things. First, it'll educate the people of Europe and America about Islam in a very personal way - their otherwise perfectly "normal" neighbors might be Muslim now, and people will see that they aren't all that different from themselves. Religious intolerance in the west will gradually become more and more taboo. Second, it'll show the parts of the Islamic world that are still unfortunately trapped in the Dark Ages that there is another way - that there is such a thing as a modern 21st century Muslim - which should help further the cause of the Arab Spring. Win/win, as far as I can see. Maybe, if we're very lucky, there might even be some kids in Europe and America who'll be exposed to both Islam and Christianity, and will discover for themselves that both are equally nonsense. Ah, one can dream...

[Craven]

So... we can all agree then that an increasing Muslim population in Europe and America is a good thing, then, yes?

No. Because they stick with their own and breed fast like hell. In 50 years one charismatic leader may gather followers and decide that Europe is spoiled by evil science and wealth and it's time to blow up non-believers, stone women and pretty much slay everyone who's not with him. And it will be quite easy since they'll be already on spot, working everywhere, with access to everything they need. They won't operate from remote country in middle east.


I don't want this to happen again. Neil compares Hamid Al-Ghazali's doing with creationists, I'm afraid of something much much more dangerous. But yeah what happens in America is also a problem, threatening to dumb that country even more.

[KingstonDon]

^This (not the video) is assinine. They "breed fast like hell" because of numerous reasons, like in Christianity a big family is promoted and related to the consequences of immigration i.e. relative poverty and (low schooling). They stick with their own because that's what humans in a foreign environment do first. They stick with that which they know, after a while however you'll start to see intermingling. In 50 years they will ...? eh? Sorry, I had no idea "they" were going to take over europe and put us all back into the dark ages because they're so malicious. Quit the crap, don't start assinine predictions based on your own unreasonable fears. In contrary to what many who haven't got any muslim friends or acquaintances people that come to the west do more often than not adopt many of the lifestyle habits & ideas from the West. Why? Because they like it. They blend it with their own culture, with that which they learned from within their home. And by the 3rd generation they're almost indistinguishable from natives. How do I know this? Because I have muslim friends, some look back at their country with shame and disappointment, they believe in democracy and equality for women. These are not christian values or values of "The West" per se, these are values that we humans have realized safeguard us all from certains horrors of the past. I'm an atheist, but I respect others' choice of religion. I believe in the human rights, the human right of existence, I believe in reason.

[jjf3]

So... we can all agree then that an increasing Muslim population in Europe and America is a good thing, then, yes?

An increased population of Muslims raised in a multi-cultural climate exposed to people of various religious backgrounds in an environment where free speech and freedom of religious choice are cherished rights ought to do two things. First, it'll educate the people of Europe and America about Islam in a very personal way - their otherwise perfectly "normal" neighbors might be Muslim now, and people will see that they aren't all that different from themselves. Religious intolerance in the west will gradually become more and more taboo. Second, it'll show the parts of the Islamic world that are still unfortunately trapped in the Dark Ages that there is another way - that there is such a thing as a modern 21st century Muslim - which should help further the cause of the Arab Spring.

I would agree but it will take thousands of years. I like to compare Islam to early Christianity and America to the Romans. You could go so far as to say that Islam might be the dominate world religion 2000 years from now, but I think it might have something more to do with technology.