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Catalonian Independence


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140 replies to this topic

#1
Guyverman1990

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I just saw the this on TV and I just thought I'd share this bit of exiting news with you and see if you think it's worthy of adding to the timeline.

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-34372548

Another source I read estimated that it could become reality by 2017. Share your thoughts.

#2
MarcZ

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Not going to happen.



#3
Ewan

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My opinion on this topic is that the country of Spain should decide if it happens or not. It's not for a singular region to unilaterally decide to secede. To my knowledge the Spanish government are firmly against independence, but I don't know where the Spanish people as a whole stand. My guess is like in the UK it will eventually become a national issue & where the people of Spain stand on it will be far more important than the opinions of the Catalans. 



#4
future-me

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But in the UK it was the people of Scotland that had the referendum, because it was up to them to decide. As an English person, it is not up to me whether Scotland should be independant or not.

 

Just as someone from Madrid or Andalucia or Tenerife should not be able to decide whether the people of Catalonia can have independence.


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#5
Ewan

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But in the UK it was the people of Scotland that had the referendum, because it was up to them to decide. As an English person, it is not up to me whether Scotland should be independant or not.

 

Just as someone from Madrid or Andalucia or Tenerife should not be able to decide whether the people of Catalonia can have independence.

 

They had the referendum because the UK government supported it, and presumably the UK electorate did as well otherwise the government wouldn't have done it. Any party coming out to support a referendum in Spain is going to lose, the situation is quite different. But perhaps over time the people within Spain will change their mind. 

 

Also, it's totally up to you, this is your country. We are not English citizens, we are British citizens. I'm not saying we or Spain should have a referendum on it, but the government needs to support it or it shouldn't happen. 



#6
GenX

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I actually just had a chance to visit Barcelona last December, and there were a number of people that I talked to that were hugely in favor of independence.  Many of the people there speak Catalon instead, and all of the restaurant menus are in Catalon first, and then as a second option they would offer Spanish and English (some of them were Catalon and English and didn't offer Spanish at all). I thought back then that it was definitely not going to happen, but now based on this news it looks like it probably will.  Spain is really struggling financially, and Barcelona is a big tourist destination and a fairly prominent cruise port, so I'm guessing that if this does happen that Catalonia will be financially more stable and the rest of Spain will end up in even worse shape.    


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#7
future-me

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The UK Government did not support independence for Scotland - nearly every party were against it, with the exception of the SNP and perhaps a few Greens. I have no idea what the general UK electorate thought, I don't remember the polls, but even if 100% of English and Welsh people did not want Scotland to leave, it wasn't up to them.

 

Catalonia are being prevented the choice because Spain are worried other regions will follow, and Europe are worried because there would undoubtedly be a tidal wave of referendums across the continent.



#8
Ewan

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The UK Government did not support independence for Scotland - nearly every party were against it, with the exception of the SNP and perhaps a few Greens. I have no idea what the general UK electorate thought, I don't remember the polls, but even if 100% of English and Welsh people did not want Scotland to leave, it wasn't up to them.

 

Catalonia are being prevented the choice because Spain are worried other regions will follow, and Europe are worried because there would undoubtedly be a tidal wave of referendums across the continent.

 

They didn't support independence for Scotland but they did support a referendum in Scotland. 



#9
Yuli Ban

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Catalonia to declare immediate independence if 'yes' wins referendum

Catalonia will declare independence "immediately" if the region's voters opt to separate from Spain in a referendum, its ruling coalition said Tuesday as it unveiled a bill aimed at ensuring the vote takes place despite Madrid's refusal.
"If the majority of votes are for creating a Catalan republic, obviously independence will have to be declared immediately," said Gabriela Serra, a member of the separatist coalition that governs Catalonia.
If the "no" wins in the planned October 1 referendum, she added in Barcelona, new regional elections will be called.


And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#10
Sciencerocks

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Defiant Catalans vote on split from Spain despite crackdown
Source: Reuters

 


#WORLD NEWS OCTOBER 1, 2017 / 12:04 AM / UPDATED AN HOUR AGO

BARCELONA (Reuters) - Spanish riot police burst into polling stations across Catalonia on Sunday confiscating ballot boxes and voting papers to try to halt a banned referendum on a split from Spain as Madrid asserted its authority over the rebel region.

Police broke down doors to force entry into voting stations as defiant Catalans shouted ‘Out with the occupying forces!” and sang the anthem of the wealthy northeastern region. In one incident in Barcelona, police fired rubber bullets.

The referendum, declared illegal by Spain’s central government, has thrown the country into its worst constitutional crisis in decades and deepened a centuries-old rift between Madrid and Barcelona.

Despite the police action, hundreds-strong queues of people formed in cities and villages throughout the region to cast their votes. At one Barcelona polling station, elderly people and those with children entered first.

 

 

Read more: http://www.reuters.c...n-idUSKCN1C60YA


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#11
Raklian

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It's obvious by this desperate police action by the central government that if Catalans officially declare independence, Spain will send in military forces in escalation. 


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What are you without the sum of your parts?

#12
Yuli Ban

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¡Who's ready for the first western European land war in 70 years?


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And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#13
Sciencerocks

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It's obvious by this desperate police action by the central government that if Catalans officially declare independence, Spain will send in military forces in escalation. 

 

If the people don't want to remain spain. What gives spain the right to kill them?



#14
Raklian

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It's obvious by this desperate police action by the central government that if Catalans officially declare independence, Spain will send in military forces in escalation. 

 

If the people don't want to remain spain. What gives spain the right to kill them?

 

 

Spain keeps thinking the Catalan independence movement is unconstitutional so it thinks everything it has done up to this point is justified.


What are you without the sum of your parts?

#15
Erowind

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Preventing people from holding a vote in an actual republic is one of the quickest ways to revolution. Spain is not a dictatorship, the people won't take this. If something like this happened in the US I have no doubt the government would be done in fairly quickly. I'm not even talking about socialist/anarchist revolution here. Telling people they don't have the right to vote and violently beating them for it is a very good way to get everyone against you considering that we have all been conditioned to believe that we have that right. Long live the revolution!

 

Independenciacatalonia.jpg


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#16
Sciencerocks

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Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent crackdowns at the polls
Emanuella Grinberg-Profile-Image1

By Emanuella Grinberg, CNN

Updated 7:22 PM ET, Sun October 1, 2017

 

(CNN)The Catalan government claimed victory early Monday in a contested referendum on independence from Spain, after Spanish government forces cracked down at polling stations.
Preliminary results suggest 90% of counted ballots favored splitting from Spain, regional government spokesperson Jordi Turull said in a news conference shortly after midnight.
The results follow a day of violent clashes between Spanish national police and supporters of the disputed vote. Hundreds were injured as riot police raided polling stations and fired rubber bullets in a concerted attempt to deny the vote legitimacy.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2...x.html?adkey=bn



#17
Sciencerocks

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Catalonia firefighters form human shield to protect referendum voters from riot police

Firefighters praised for 'protecting the public' after displaying their support for the independence referendum
Natasha Salmon 6 hours ago

 

Firefighters in Catalonia have turned out to support the independence referendum in the region by forming a human barrier between riot police and voters.

People took to social media to praise the fire officers for stepping in to 'protect the public' from the violence seen since polling stations opened on Sunday morning.

Days before the referendum was due to take place hundreds of firefighters gathered along the roof of Catalonia's history museum with a banner saying 'Love democracy'.

Thousands of people turned out to vote in the region on whether it should seek independence from the central Spanish government.

More:

 

http://www.independe...l-a7976556.html


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#18
caltrek

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Catalonia Leaders Seek to Make Independence Referendum Binding

 

https://www.nytimes....WT.nav=top-news

 

Introduction:

 

BARCELONA, Spain — The leader of Catalonia insisted on Monday that Sunday’s independence referendum, though marred by clashes and rejected by the Spanish government, had earned his region the right to a separate state and that he would press ahead to make the vote binding.

 

Without specifying when, Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan leader, said he would submit the result for approval to the regional Parliament. That could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and tip the country even deeper into crisis — already one of the worst since the start of Spain’s democracy in the 1970s.

 

Shortly after midnight on Sunday, the Catalan government announced that 90 percent of almost 2.3 million voters had cast ballots in favor of independence. But a consensus on the vote, even among Catalans, was by no means assured, despite Mr. Puigdemont’s stated determination.

 

The referendum’s tallies could not be independently verified; the voting registers used were based on a census whose validity is contested; and, most important, Spain’s constitutional court had ordered that the referendum be suspended.

 

Rafael Catalá, Spain’s justice minister, warned Monday morning that the central government in Madrid was prepared to use its emergency powers to prevent a unilateral declaration of independence. Under Spanish law, the government could suspend Mr. Puigdemont from office, and take full administrative control of Catalonia.

03catalonia10-superJumbo.jpg

Supporters of Catalan independence marched in Barcelona, Spain, on Monday.

Credit: Felipe Dana/Associated Press


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The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#19
Guyverman1990

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I won't be surprised if a war breaks out in Spain over Catalonian independence.



#20
Raklian

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I won't be surprised if a war breaks out in Spain over Catalonian independence.

 

Either there's going to be a political compromise between Spain and Catalonia, or a military occupation by Spain with the justification that the referendum was unconstitutional to begin with.

 

There's a good chance this will simmer for years to come.


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