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The Nineteen Eighty-Four Thread

George Orwell Nineteen Eighty-Four 1984 Animal Farm Dystopia Totalitarianism Big Brother failed civilization

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#21
Yuli Ban

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And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#22
Yuli Ban

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For The Love Of Brother #1: The Panamerican Horror

 

The newest 1984-inspired thread of mine! This one is about the tyrannical reign over the former United States of America by an enigmatic figure known as "Brother Number One" and his oligarchy known as "the Brotherhood".


And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#23
Yuli Ban

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Today's my map day, it seems.
 
 
So is this Orwell's Hell?
 
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... Or is it this?
 
SoWsLin.png

The real life 1984 was kinda 1984. You definitely had NATO acting as a sort of Oceania. You had the Warsaw Pact acting as Eurasia. Eastasia would be China and the east Asian communist regimes. The problem was it was.... eh. USSR citizens didn't really live in fear. By 1984, China had turned around from the Mao era and was rapidly beginning to improve. US citizens weren't really poor. We definitely had surveillance and thought control, but it was very light compared to 1984. Except in the Eastern European countries, of course. Stasi was absolutely mad.

 

Yeah, when I think of "1984", I think of this instead of this. Ataris and leg warmers, not sexcrime and joycamps.


And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#24
Mike the average

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Finally finished 1984, thanks to bus rides.

It was suppose to be a one off fiction read. However the next book im reading is We by russian Yevgeny Zamyatin. There is history and controversy behind it. But it is now considered the grandfather of all these dystopian books.

Apparently this is what orwell read which made him write 1984. Its also the book orwell accused huxley of copying.

You might have already read it and know all this but i thought it was worth a mention in this thread considering orwells comments on it.

https://upload.wikim...dust_jacket.jpg


'Force always attracts men of low morality' - Einstein
'Great spirits always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds' - Einstein

#25
Yuli Ban

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WHEN 1984 CAME TRUE

During the Khmer Rouge’s nightmarish rule of Cambodia Thought Police, the abolition of the family and even a version of Newspeak were all instituted

Dystopias of fact and fiction
Even amongst all the dystopias that have been conjured since there remains something uniquely horrible about George Orwell’s. Somehow even the darkest vistas like children killing each other in gladiatorial games, can’t match the utter bleakness of what he foretold. Take this passage of a Party apparatchik outlining its vision:
“There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always—do not forget this, Winston—always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.”
Such nightmarish predictions arose not ex niholo but from Orwell’s observation of the totalitarian regimes of his day. Yet like the fictional universes conjured since, these actual regimes could never fully realise their totalitarian ideals. “All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” might have been a slogan of Mussolini’s but it didn’t describe how his regime actually worked. The state might be highly invasive of private life but it could not actually abolish it. Religion, private property and above all else the family remained. The same was true of Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Russia and Tojo’s Japan.
Take Orwell’s most notorious creation: Newspeak. This was a new language the rulers of Orwell’s nightmare state had created so it would be impossible to express ideas of which they disapproved. This was inspired by the way language was bent for political purposes. It was easier to justify “elimination of unreliable elements” than it was to argue for people to be “imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps.” The shroud of euphemism protected people from considering the true horror of what was occurring.
But this was far short of Newspeak: it was the creation of new words and phrases rather than a new language. The basic grammar and the vast bulk of the vocabulary of the language infected with it. It served not to make it impossible to think of certain things but to provide a means by which one could avoid thinking of them. In language as in many other spheres, the totalitarians of the 1930s and 40s were able to intrude more widely than any state before but total control still remained beyond their grasp.
If one wants to find a regime most closely approximating the nightmare of IngSoc, then one would not look to the mighty totalitarian regimes of Orwell’s day.  Instead, you would find it thirty years later in a small corner of South-East Asia.


And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#26
Yuli Ban

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ingsoc_1984_victory_gin_poster-rebd9ac93

 

Delicious.


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And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#27
Yuli Ban

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#28
Yuli Ban

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#29
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And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#30
Yuli Ban

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#31
BasilBerylium

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I could read this book, especially after reading "Brave New World".


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#32
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#33
caltrek

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Have you read Animal Farm? I'm close to recommending it as a must-read before reading Nineteen Eighty-Four

 

Animal Farm is especially useful in understanding the rift between the Trotskyists and the Stailinists.  Subsequent historically revealed documents show why that would be the case.  In the the Spanish Civil War, the Stalinists were absolutely paranoid that their efforts were being undermined by the Trotskyists. Trotsky, in turn, argued that Stalin had betrayed the revolution.   Of the two perspectives, I tend to think that Trotsky had the stronger argument.

 

Of course, the anarchists were neither followers of Trotsky or Stalin.  They simply had an ideology that had different roots.  Still, they ended up being mistaken as being followers of Trotsky as they were more willing to question his authority. Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War, and so was able to see all of this up close and personal.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#34
TheComrade

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Have you read Animal Farm? I'm close to recommending it as a must-read before reading Nineteen Eighty-Four

 

Animal Farm is especially useful in understanding the rift between the Trotskyists and the Stailinists...

 

To me, this was an allegoric (but realistic, at the same time) description of how young and newly established socialism can backslide to capitalism. Workers (animals) kicked out the previous oppressors (humans). They're now the formal owners of the farm, but can not manage it themselves, so bureaucracy (pigs) taking over this task. Slowly but inevitably, they're turning into a new ruling class. Eventrually "as the animals look from pigs to humans, they realise they can no longer distinguish between the two."


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#35
joe00uk

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Have you read Animal Farm? I'm close to recommending it as a must-read before reading Nineteen Eighty-Four

Animal Farm is especially useful in understanding the rift between the Trotskyists and the Stailinists...

To me, this was an allegoric (but realistic, at the same time) description of how young and newly established socialism can backslide to capitalism. Workers (animals) kicked out the previous oppressors (humans). They're now the formal owners of the farm, but can not manage it themselves, so bureaucracy (pigs) taking over this task. Slowly but inevitably, they're turning into a new ruling class. Eventrually "as the animals look from pigs to humans, they realise they can no longer distinguish between the two."

The problem, though, is that Animal Farm tries to claim this happened under Stalin when in reality, it would only be after his death that this slow transition would occur.



#36
TheComrade

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The problem, though, is that Animal Farm tries to claim this happened under Stalin when in reality, it would only be after his death that this slow transition would occur.

 

Yes.



#37
caltrek

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The problem, though, is that Animal Farm tries to claim this happened under Stalin when in reality, it would only be after his death that this slow transition would occur.

 

Yes.

 

No.


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The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#38
TheComrade

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No.

 

And still, this is exactly after Stalin's death, Soviet bureaucracy introduced the principle of "collective responsibily" which in practice quickly led them to personal irresponsibility and separation from the rest of society. Under Stalin, this was impossible, they had to do their part of common work, whether they liked it or not.



#39
caltrek

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No.

 

And still, this is exactly after Stalin's death, Soviet bureaucracy introduced the principle of "collective responsibily" which in practice quickly led them to personal irresponsibility and separation from the rest of society. Under Stalin, this was impossible, they had to do their part of common work, whether they liked it or not.

 

 

My understanding of Soviet history is that Stalin had long before elevated the importance of the bureaucracy over the revolutionaries.  It is the revolutionaries, like Trotsky, who were most likely to be purged. To rely on some simple pronouncement as evidence strikes me as being highly risky.  Such pronouncements may have merely codified what had already become a long standing practice. An exercise in Newspeak perhaps. 

 

After all, Stalin died well after Orwell wrote his book describing Stalinism. 


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#40
TheComrade

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To rely on some simple pronouncement as evidence strikes me as being highly risky.

 

I just have no mood for a long essay (i already wrote a lot of them here)... So, let's end this with just YES and NO :)

 

PS I noticed I'm losing my taste for long political debates. Just a few years ago i was like this:

 

Spoiler

 

...and now it's just "Do you really think so? Well, as you wish..."







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four, 1984, Animal Farm, Dystopia, Totalitarianism, Big Brother, failed civilization

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