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Establishing new nations in future

nation building politics economics

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18 replies to this topic

#1
Alislaws

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One of the frustrations i feel (and i'm sure many others feel) with politics is my basic belief that many of the people who don't agree with me are idiots. 

 

I feel like we could make massive societal progress if we could find a way to start again from scratch, with only like minded people involved. Ideally in a number of locations with differing fundamental philosophies. So instead of endlessly debating things everyone could get stuck in figuring out the best practical way to implement their preferred ideology. 

 

It is also undeniable that one of the most successful political systems of the last millennia is the USA, which is also one of the few nations that was created by a bunch of well educated people sitting down and planning out how best to run a country. 

 

Some of the protections against corruption that the founding fathers put in place have been eroded over the years, but it was a damn good try and certainly better than most political systems at the time it was created. So I think there is a lot of potential in a bunch of smart people thinking carefully and reworking things from the ground up. 

 

The question is: How do we do this? 

 

The basic requirement is some place to establish a nation that is not already occupied by some other nation, and some people willing to move there. 

 

Some broad ways that have been discussed on how to do this would be:

  • Sea steading/island building,
  • Colonization of other planets/moons/asteroids,
  • Construction and habitation of space habitats,
  • A region achieving independence,
  • Revolution (presumably accompanied by death or exile of dissenters?)

So what ways do you think we could manage to experiment in nation building in future, and what sort of ideas would you like to see tested if you were in charge?


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#2
tomasth

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Weren't the founding fathers system humanist ? So maybe A transhumanist system is appropriate for a transhumanist age , the way the 18th-century were a humanistic age.



#3
wjfox

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One such project is already underway –

 

https://asgardia.space/en/

 

 

72e4368d606a9a499910496cb994ed544187d792


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#4
tomasth

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Aren't they a parody ? And not a very good one ?

 

Space tourism , in space industry , services for science projects ; those are a foundation for space infrastructure that will eventuate into a more community basis. Its not affordable to develop them otherwise.



#5
Outlook

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One such project is already underway –

https://asgardia.space/en/


Disgusting. A nation that names itself after a different cultural mythology than mine. I'm starting my own nation.

The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

 

Song to cure depression: https://youtu.be/9eCOLWnD5VM


#6
Voight-Kampff

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One of the frustrations i feel (and i'm sure many others feel) with politics is my basic belief that many of the people who don't agree with me are idiots. 

 

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics. Unfortunately, the existing political structure on this planet won't allow such experiments, which have already been tried in Fiji, the Caribbean, and elsewhere, but to explain why they failed and will never work, I'd have to discuss politics.



#7
Yuli Ban

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We can discuss politics here. The issue is making sure arguments don't get overheated and combative. 


  • Erowind likes this

And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#8
Alislaws

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One of the frustrations i feel (and i'm sure many others feel) with politics is my basic belief that many of the people who don't agree with me are idiots. 

 

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss politics. Unfortunately, the existing political structure on this planet won't allow such experiments, which have already been tried in Fiji, the Caribbean, and elsewhere, but to explain why they failed and will never work, I'd have to discuss politics.

 

I was jokingly trying to highlight that there are many political/ideological perspectives that are based on fundamental differences in assumptions and worldview, such that the two (or more) sides are each convinced, not only that the other side is incorrect, but that the other side is beyond convincing, usually we will attribute this to either stupidity on our opponent's part, or to their possessing some character flaw.

 

Capitalists are all selfish exploiters, or stuck in the past, Sociaists are all naïve (I.e stupid) or tyrannical etc. 

 

This topic is about solving this through separation (establish new nation, invite only "true believers" in whatever system you're testing) rather than through majority tyranny or eternal struggle and compromise which are the only way we have to resolve these divides today. The colonial era with different religious groups founding colonies etc. is he best historical parallel I think.

 

I understand that most experiments in setting up new political structures have not met with success, Making radical changes to a stable (ish) political structure (or creating a new one from scratch) is always risky. However historically If everyone had taken the attitude of "if it was a viable idea, it would already be being used" we'd all still be living under feudalism.

 

Every nation in the world has changed and evolved over time, sometimes quite abruptly (French revolution, Russian revolution, American revolution etc.) while more commonly, successful nations have taken hundreds of years of more gradual changes but the idea that change can only be incremental is not supported by history.

 

In an era where technological change is accelerating faster and faster, and the feasibility of things like space habitats or island building is increasing (mainly through advances in robotics and AI) it's not outside the realm of possibility that within the lifetimes of younger forum members, some future Elon musk character may find himself figuring out how best to organise his new mars colony or a future Jeff Bezos might build an army of robots and create his own little island kingdom in the pacific or something.

 

EDIT: Another factor is the internet's ability, as with the asardia project, to bring together large numbers of people from all over the world who are ideologically united. Which means (assuming you had the space) you could set up test societies with millions of members, but without a large population of f people who would really​ lke things to go back to the old way, which is the most obvious issue in a lot of revolutions etc.


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#9
caltrek

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This topic is about solving this through separation (establish new nation, invite only "true believers" in whatever system you're testing) rather than through majority tyranny or eternal struggle and compromise which are the only way we have to resolve these divides today

 

 

This is why I favor the worker co-op movement versus "new nations."   Worker co-ops are simply people organizing along essentially capitalist lines where-in the workers utilize the profits for their own well-being.  A virulent variation of that was Israel.  There kibbutz movement was well-intentioned and even vaguely socialist.  After Jewish experience in World War II, a Jewish nation also seemed like a good idea.

 

 

Put into practice, Palestinians - ironically a Semitic people themselves - were deprived of land and rights. Leading to the ultimate absurdity of anti-Zionists being accused of being "anti-Semitic".   


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#10
tomasth

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In many works of fiction , space settlements ae used as Alislaws suggested. Maybe each family or person have its own space caravan and develope its idiosyncratic culture.

caltrek

If nation change its because a society underwent a radical change , and if that happens , human condition will not need co-op or possibly any of the currently existing cultures (or religons).

anti-Semitic is a term for jew-hatred , have nothing to do with
semitic.

#11
Alephwyr

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Why not virtual nations, along the lines of simulated consciousness?  Then all you'd need is a safe place to house the server, and you could have as many as you like.



#12
Alislaws

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Why not virtual nations, along the lines of simulated consciousness?  Then all you'd need is a safe place to house the server, and you could have as many as you like.

That's another of the ideas I think may be really effective long term. 

 

If we had really good commonly used VR, then you could create micronations/servers where people could gather with like minded people (like an internet forum but in 3d)

 

so r/TheDonald could have a server where they have a simulation of their perfect white man's America  covered in statues of Trump. Everyone agrees to keep things tolerant etc. in the real world, and in VR you can live a happy life never seeing anyone who looks different from yourself.

 

(​and also everyone could look however they wanted, so everyone would be super good looking and we'd have effectively infinite resources, so we'd all have private islands and Ferraris and stuff)



#13
Yuli Ban

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^1: this already happened in Second Life. Hell, Second Life itself could be considered a virtual country— it already has a GDP larger than some real world nations.

2: "Everyone gets their own private islands and Ferraris"

I believe you are misunderstanding the mindset behind some of the people who would willingly inhabit the glorious nation of Kekistan. Many are of the sort who believe this old quote wholeheartedly:

quote-it-is-not-enough-to-succeed-others

 

What good is it to have your own solid gold private island, shagging a harem consisting entirely of Marilyn Monroes, if there aren't peasants, trash, vagabonds, and negros to envy you?


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And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#14
Outlook

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Humans are naturally hierarchal creatures, striving to be the best, most powerful, and most popular above others. Competition will never leave our nature, as it's the very essence of nature. It's even ingrained heavily in our culture past politics and economics. Think of competitive games, or even criticism and comparison where things are compared and considered to be better than others. Who is the best actor, artist, architect? What is the best movie, song, or building? Which socio-economic or political system is the best, or what theory of morality is more right?

The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

 

Song to cure depression: https://youtu.be/9eCOLWnD5VM


#15
Alislaws

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That's why VR is so great!

 

Firstly you could create NPC characters to rule over (of whatever ethnic/gender combinations you happen to hate most), depending on how good they were this would satisfy some of the desire people have to be high status, the rest would have to come from the opinions of your peers, which is unavoidable. But its not like people cant get satisfaction from competing with other people (or greifing/trolling people) in videogames

 

Secondly the people on the Red  server and the people on the Blue server could genocide each-other to their heart's content in VR. As long as they kept it to verbal conflict in the real world it'd all be fine. 

 

The American civil war could be fought again and again eternally!

 

Also if people can basically live in the internet with almost total freedom, you could afford to be more restrictive on stuff IRL.

 

Like if you made IRL a "safe space" (in the sarcastic way antiSJW folks talk about them where no one is allowed to offend anyone else without being immediately imprisoned) but left large portions of the newly physical internet as "anything goes".

 

Also because its self segregating racists would go for years without seeing any of the race they hate, so they'd probably end up more chilled about things. Would seem silly to complain about the destruction of US culture and traditions by foreigners if there was a "Perfect 1950s USA Simulation" running and anyone who wanted to could take their kids there and show them what the good old USofA is all about.

 

The beauty of it is that young people and children would absolutely not care about any of this stuff, and would just hang out and have more fun than any generation has ever had. While enjoying the fact that their parents would find most of what they got up to totally incomprehensible in a way not matched by any previous generation. 



#16
Outlook

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People care about politics because to them it's real and it matters. Humans are endless in their scope of understanding, and so to think they'd be left in a virtual world to forget about the real world ignores the fact that we've been arguing, trying to find the true reason for existence and purpose of living ever since we understood those concepts.

The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

 

Song to cure depression: https://youtu.be/9eCOLWnD5VM


#17
Alislaws

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But a lot of political issues are nowhere near as broad or nebulous as that. If a nation is in the middle of a civil war, this would obviously make little difference. what it would do is give everyone enough room to do what they want without affecting anyone who doesn't like it, which would make it easier for people of conflicting viewpoints to get along, even if its just by making them see each other less. 

 

If you hate all the new PC crap that's turned up since the 80s you can spend the majority of your time in places where it doesn't apply.

 

That's not an option today because space is scarce and people need to live near jobs.

If the internet was essentially a practically infinite physical place you could reach any part of from anywhere within minutes, that changes everything.

 

It would make only a minor difference to people who didn't grow up with it but for people who did "live and let live" would be the only remotely sensible way to deal with most major internal disagreements.

 

 

Another example from the immigration debate in the wall thread, If someone hates immigration but spends 80% of their time in FIVR they're more likely to just say "fine let them in, makes no difference to me I'll just avoid servers where they hang out"

 

On the other side people who support lots of immigration will eventually regard it as pointless (except for asylum seekers) because international borders between free nations don't really mean anything on the internet. Why move to the USA If you can live in your home country while logging into your American employer's corporate server every day for work. Subjectively it would be like being able to teleport.

 

Time zones might be annoying I guess.



#18
Outlook

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Why not virtual nations, along the lines of simulated consciousness?  Then all you'd need is a safe place to house the server, and you could have as many as you like.


How would resource acquisition work? There has to be physical interaction with this virtual world, at least as trade with other outside countries. How would force work? If somebody captures your energy sources or server boxes, you must defend that and that requires physical work. You must have land then, with its own sovereignty so that your nation doesnt become subject to another nation's laws.

For that reason it sounds too far-fetched for me because physical space, real-world space, is always a constant.
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The Prophet (saw) said: He who does not thank the people is not thankful to Allah.

 

Song to cure depression: https://youtu.be/9eCOLWnD5VM


#19
mythos917

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I found Dr. Robert Zubrin's of the Mars Society thoughts on this topic in relation to how potential future Mars settlements should be governed very interesting. He calls it "the Noble Experiments" and suggests many forms of governments on Mars - that is, many independent city states founded according to various ideas. The ones with bad ideas will fail over time, the ones with the best ones will prosper and adapt and draw immigrants and serve as an example to advance the rest of humanity.


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