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A Dyson Sphere/Swarm would have latency problems


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#1
funkervogt

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Imagine we built a Dyson Sphere or Swarm around our Sun, and structure was 1 AU in diameter. It takes 8 minutes and 20 seconds for light to travel from the Sun to the Earth, so sending a signal from one end of the Dyson structure to another could take up to 16 minutes and 40 seconds. 

 

If the Dyson structure is inhabited by intelligent machines spread out across it, then the tyranny of distance will impose communication lag problems on their civilization. This means that the machine civilization will not be a unitary consciousness; it will be many conscious entities distributed across the massive Dyson structure. 

 

Each entity would control a relatively small area over which lag times weren't so bad that they would impose a burden on the ultra-high processing speeds each entity would be capable of supporting.  


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#2
tomasth

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So ? What was the point ?



#3
Erowind

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An alternative could be for a conscious entity to slow down its processing speed which might use less energy too. On the timescale a star's lifespan 16 minutes isn't all that long I think. 



#4
tomasth

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What was the thread point ?

Are you searching for info on Dyson Sphere or Swarm ? There is a popular futurist issac arthur that have videos on that and tons of info on the net in general.



#5
funkervogt

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I dunnah!



#6
eacao

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we have encephalisation and encephalisation of gaglia is good and the latency problem is real and that's why we won't have superbrains living under the Atlantic to stay cool cause latency means cache is > intercontinental and the Earth will not be encephalised into an individual precisely though it might because division of functions with washington and new york and los angeles and maybe earth will be encephalised but maybe it won't and if it is then it won't be a single superorganism with Mars as far as I can see into the medium future but maybe into the farther future with the farther reaches of our ability to see into the farther yonder it will be but who knows because I don't know and I think the world won't be encephalised into a single superorganism so posthumans might still live freely as subordinate equals but who knows because I don't know and I want to know but in any case the world is big and it takes 140 milliseconds for light to circumnavigate the globe which is big and maybe that's too long for AI thoughts to handle so idk but I think encephalisation will still pocket. 

 

that's what i think


If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill

You don't decide your future. You decide your habits, and your habits decide your future.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln.


#7
eacao

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Also, given the ability of nation states to act as superorganisms (a thought I've been fiddling with lately, if y'all think it's dumb then say so cause I need some good feedback) then it bodes well for the ability of a Dyson sphere to act in a somewhat cohesive manner. 

 

Nation states are composed of individuals who are bottlenecked by their ability to speak and listen (though given the predominant organisational structure is corporation, perhaps agendas align more). Nevertheless, whether the common unit of agenda is the individual or the corporation (in any given snapshot of time), the fact the nation state can still operate and make decisions as a superorganism is telling to me (tell me I'm stupid, please, I'm begging you). 

 

I think the world will indeed become more holistically incorporated (it's not neoclassical economics, but a progeny), and this will continue until the entire planet operates for better or for worse as a single supply chain with individual nodes (intelligences--AI or nah) pursuing self interest via contribution towards the greater chain as per capitalism or its progeny. I think the bandwidth problem is a physical bottleneck that will prevent total unification. Again, I'll draw on cache as a manifestation of the same physical ratio. Decisions will propagate faster than communication. 

 

I suspect the same will hold true for a Dyson swarm. Latency will be high, this will still favour the evolution of individuals, but they will have their self-interest align with the greater superorganism. 

 

The path of least-resistance for individuals will be cooperation with the superorganism. Trying to impose one's will upon an entire supply chain is fighting forcing functions. 

 

Nevertheless, as per the Pareto function we'll still see encephalisation. The Washington, the New York, and the Hollywood of the Solar system (if you want to take this analogy beyond its use). 


  • Outlook and funkervogt like this

If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill

You don't decide your future. You decide your habits, and your habits decide your future.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln.


#8
PhoenixRu

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.



#9
eacao

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.

I got a notification that you quoted my post, Phoenix. 

 

What did you say, Phoenix?

 

I really want to know, Phoenix. 


If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill

You don't decide your future. You decide your habits, and your habits decide your future.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln.


#10
PhoenixRu

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.

I got a notification that you quoted my post, Phoenix. 

 

What did you say, Phoenix?

 

I really want to know, Phoenix. 

 

Well, I was just asking: are you OK? I hope you're OK...



#11
eacao

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.

I got a notification that you quoted my post, Phoenix. 

 

What did you say, Phoenix?

 

I really want to know, Phoenix. 

 

Well, I was just asking: are you OK? I hope you're OK...

 

I'm all G brah, thanks for asking. I'm just talking like a dip shit cause we all have to entertain ourselves somehow


If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill

You don't decide your future. You decide your habits, and your habits decide your future.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln.


#12
PhoenixRu

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I'm just talking like a dip shit cause we all have to entertain ourselves somehow

 

There are different types of entertaining. I, for example, currently reading this book:

 

553632.jpg

 

This is about heroic Russian guys fearlessly eliminating a vile enemy... The bloody snakes dared to raise a hand against Russia and now the sacred and unavoidable revenge came into their own den (called Washington).

 

Trash? Yes, trash. But a spirit-lifting, inspiring trash.

 

/offtopic.



#13
eacao

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That's very, very Russian of you. Hope that "trash" is at least enjoyable to read. Plenty of trashy books are, as you said, spirit lifting. My nerdy embarrassment is The Fringe Worlds by Adam Caine. Terrible books, I don't recommend them. 

 

Interestingly enough though, they're set in deep space in a type-II / III civilisation which would probably have Dyson spheres. 


If you're going through hell, keep going. - Winston Churchill

You don't decide your future. You decide your habits, and your habits decide your future.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln.


#14
PhoenixRu

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That's very, very Russian of you. Hope that "trash" is at least enjoyable to read. Plenty of trashy books are, as you said, spirit lifting.

 

We have a whole "spirit lifting militarist" genre emerged from nowhere during last decade or so. Such is the "colour" of our time, as Asians say. People smell the impending fire, and there comes the social demand... I've read quite few of them and, among trash, there are exceptions like "The wrath of patient man" - gloomy and realistic trilogy describing the war between NATO and Russia. But even there, author created the silly and unrealistic happy end completely out of tune with the main idea.

 

My nerdy embarrassment is The Fringe Worlds by Adam Caine. Terrible books, I don't recommend them. 

 

Interestingly enough though, they're set in deep space in a type-II / III civilisation which would probably have Dyson spheres. 

 

Such genre in Russia is almost dead, for the reasons described above: when society is unsure about nearest 5 or 10 years, people have no slightest interest to things like deep space colonization and Dyson spheres.

 

=== === ===

 

I finished. Funkervogt, sorry for derailing your thread.


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#15
joe00uk

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there are exceptions like "The wrath of patient man" - gloomy and realistic trilogy describing the war between NATO and Russia. But even there, author created the silly and unrealistic happy end completely out of tune with the main idea.

Even if it has a disappointing ending, it sounds like a really interesting book. Do you know where I can get it?



#16
PhoenixRu

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Even if it has a disappointing ending, it sounds like a really interesting book. Do you know where I can get it?

 

I highly doubt it will ever be translated to English.



#17
Squillimy

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There would be a communication lag, but why is that an issue? When you're figuring out a problem, you don't come to a conclusion instantly. You use different parts of your brain in order to come to a logistical conclusion.

 

Signals in your brain travel from inbetween 1 and 270 miles an hour, yet even though your brain has a physical size and speed limit, you're still conscious aren't you? I think it would work the same way with a unified brain within a Dyson Sphere. Just because there's significant lag between different parts of its mind, doesn't mean the mind can't be unified and coherent. I mean, we're talking about a damn godlike intelligence here.


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What becomes of man when the things that man can create are greater than man itself?


#18
funkervogt

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There would be a communication lag, but why is that an issue? When you're figuring out a problem, you don't come to a conclusion instantly. You use different parts of your brain in order to come to a logistical conclusion.
 
Signals in your brain travel from inbetween 1 and 270 miles an hour, yet even though your brain has a physical size and speed limit, you're still conscious aren't you? I think it would work the same way with a unified brain within a Dyson Sphere. Just because there's significant lag between different parts of its mind, doesn't mean the mind can't be unified and coherent. I mean, we're talking about a damn godlike intelligence here.


I just don't see how you could reconcile an enormously fast clock speed with 16 minute lag. The gap must be orders of magnitude more extreme than what exists in a human brain.

#19
Squillimy

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There would be a communication lag, but why is that an issue? When you're figuring out a problem, you don't come to a conclusion instantly. You use different parts of your brain in order to come to a logistical conclusion.
 
Signals in your brain travel from inbetween 1 and 270 miles an hour, yet even though your brain has a physical size and speed limit, you're still conscious aren't you? I think it would work the same way with a unified brain within a Dyson Sphere. Just because there's significant lag between different parts of its mind, doesn't mean the mind can't be unified and coherent. I mean, we're talking about a damn godlike intelligence here.


I just don't see how you could reconcile an enormously fast clock speed with 16 minute lag. The gap must be orders of magnitude more extreme than what exists in a human brain.

 

 

True. I just think different parts of its brain would work towards different goals, and they would later connect to solve greater problems.

 

Like, a part of its brain figures out an aspect of said problem, it's communicated to another part of the sphere (8 minutes away), then the former part is temporarily "turned down" (not shut off completely, just operating at lower activity), while the part of the brain it sent the data to can work on a separate asset of the problem. Obviously it wouldn't just be 1 part working at a time, but it's a superintelligent AI so it constantly has to use a significant amount of brainpower to make sure its mind stays coherent. 

 

I guess an example would be deciding to raise your hand infront of your face. The decision making part of your brain makes the decision. You send signals to the parts that control your hand to go up. The part of the brain that receives visual input sees your vision is now blocked. The reasoning part of your brain says your vision is blocked because of your hand. Your brain registers this event as non-important, therefore it is sent to short-term memory. No parts of your brain are completely "turned off", but different parts of your brain are used for different things. This all happens in about a second, but for a super AI, a similar action (obviously with a level of complexity orders of magnitude greater) the reasoning takes 100,000 seconds

 

So even though there is significant lag, the problems it's solving would be ones that take higher orders of magnitude in time to solve (say, a decade of working at one problem) rather than our problems that take, say, a couple hours. After all we only live ~80 years, it would live well over 1,000,000,000 years. 

 

As a whole, it's mind moves slower than ours, but it can simulate an entire human intelligence in a square millimeter. It doesn't need to constantly think as a whole.


What becomes of man when the things that man can create are greater than man itself?





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