147 replies to this topic

[joe00uk]

No, there is also a Constitution that was drafted specifically with the idea of uniting many diverse communities into a united federal system. 

Yeah, how's that working out though?

[joe00uk]

That is why they formed as a federation of states, so that each state could function with some autonomy.

They were formed as states by White Americans for White Americans - however good or bad anyone might believe that to be. The US Constitution was not built for racial diversity everywhere within each state, or even much racial diversity at all. It wasn't until 1965 that immigration restrictions were loosened enough to allow a great many non-Europeans to move to the country and shift the demographic makeup of the US in the way they now have.

[TranscendingGod]

Where's the Asians in this conversation of the impossibility of living together? Seems a bit unfair to leave them out of your thesis.

[caltrek]

 

 

I do agree with that actually, that materially they would be worse off, but like you said yourself, look at the race riots this year. 

 

Joe, they weren't "race riots" - they were mostly "police riots".  Most protesters understood the need for peaceful protest.

 

I do agree that "there are many ways that this could play out."  

[joe00uk]

Where's the Asians in this conversation of the impossibility of living together? Seems a bit unfair to leave them out of your thesis.

That's true, but they're also a much smaller group than the other three so their impact isn't as big.

[TranscendingGod]

And keep in mind that "white" is a pretty meaningless concept here as the Europeans who immigrated here were hardly homogeneous and indeed they didn't see it that way either. They didn't have the same religion, food, income levels or whatever else. "White" is being reified here into a classification that simply doesn't exist just like Asian is being excluded because it doesn't fit into the narrative of disunity in the eyes of the the person making the argument.

Either way the United States won't break up because of race relations and I'm willing to bet on that.

[joe00uk]

Joe, they weren't "race riots" - they were mostly "police riots".  Most protesters understood the need for peaceful protest.

 

I do agree that "there are many ways that this could play out."  

No, they were race riots. Most major American cities saw violent riots and any suggestion that they were "mostly peaceful" is nonsense and is designed to distract from the fact that there were so many riots, and the resulting defunding of police has coincided with a massive surge in violent crime in cities like Minneapolis, Chicago and New York City so bad that these cities are returning to the way they were in the 70s.

[caltrek]

 

 

Minority groups who can't trace their family history to the US in the late 18th Century don't share the same heritage as those who can, just like White Americans whose ancestors may have arrived in the 17th Century don't share the same heritage as Native Americans who have been there for thousands of years. As for two official languages, well that's my point, there are many separate cultures and identities in the US right now which come from different nations of people. Also, most people aren't mixed race in America so you can't exactly use your own mixed heritage to deny what is essentially a historical law, that you can't force different nations of people to live together in the same country forever and ever. 

 

 

Personally, I think you are really grabbing at straws in the first part of your comment, but that is just my personal opinion.

 

As far as "most people aren't mixed race in America" - that is irrelevant. The important point is that there are so many households that are of mixed race, and certainly of mixed ethnicity.  Believe me. 

[joe00uk]

Personally, I think you are really grabbing at straws in the first part of your comment, but that is just my personal opinion.

 

As far as "most people aren't mixed race in America" - that is irrelevant. The important point is that there are so many households that are of mixed race, and certainly of mixed ethnicity.  Believe me. 

How am I grabbing at straws?

 

As for the rest, well, let me know when mixed race households become the majority of the US population. If that happens, then yes, the situation would be very different. 

[caltrek]

 

Joe, they weren't "race riots" - they were mostly "police riots".  Most protesters understood the need for peaceful protest.

 

I do agree that "there are many ways that this could play out."  

No, they were race riots. Most major American cities saw violent riots and any suggestion that they were "mostly peaceful" is nonsense and doesn't account for the fact that there were so many riots and the resulting defunding of police has coincided with a massive surge in violent crime in cities like Minneapolis, Chicago and New York City so bad that these cities are returning to the way they were in the 70s.

 

 

Joe, most of the protest were peaceful. I live in this country. You don't. Don't try and tell me what went down in my own neighborhood.  What most major American cities saw in terms of metropolitan "riots" is what they saw on television and through the media. A distorting lens if ever there was one. 

[caltrek]

 

Personally, I think you are really grabbing at straws in the first part of your comment, but that is just my personal opinion.

 

As far as "most people aren't mixed race in America" - that is irrelevant. The important point is that there are so many households that are of mixed race, and certainly of mixed ethnicity.  Believe me. 

How am I grabbing at straws?

 

As for the rest, well, let me know when mixed race households become the majority of the US population. If that happens, then yes, the situation would be very different. 

 

 

You are grabbing at straws when you say there is a significant difference between people who can "only" trace their ancestry to the late 19th century versus those who can trace their ancestry down to the 18th century. To me, that does not even pass the laugh test. Of course, that is a highly subjective opinion on my part, so I am open to counter evidence form sociological studies, etc. 

[TranscendingGod]

Protests involved hundreds or thousands of people in cities and very few looted or rioted. Police often times exacerbated things by using excessive force where it was not needed. These are the facts as far as I've seen.

Also people did protest in some of the cities around my area with a few incidents but again largely peaceful. They even protested in my small town with no issues whatsoever. I assumed this was the same in thousands of towns and cities all over the country.

[caltrek]

@Transcending God and Futurist:  I did not mean to ignore your points as I think they were also quite valid.

 

Edit: Transcending God and I posted above at almost the exact moment. It is very gratifying that he and I perceive things in largely the same way on that point.

[joe00uk]

You are grabbing at straws when you say there is a significant difference between people who can "only" trace their ancestry to the late 19th century versus those who can trace their ancestry down to the 18th century. To me, that does not even pass the laugh test. Of course, that is a highly subjective opinion on my part, so I am open to counter evidence form sociological studies, etc. 

Well I should have specified there I guess, but I was talking about mid-late 20th or even 21st Century arrivals, not the 19th Century (nowhere did I say the 19th Century). 

[joe00uk]

Joe, most of the protest were peaceful. I live in this country. You don't. Don't try and tell me what went down in my own neighborhood.  What most major American cities saw in terms of metropolitan "riots" is what they saw on television and through the media. A distorting lens if ever there was one. 

So because your own neighbourhood was peaceful, Minneapolis didn't suffer extremely destructive violence. Did you not also see everything through the media, or did you actually tour every American city?

 

There are plenty of Americans - including ethnic minorities themselves - who recognise how widespread and destructive these riots were. Ironically, in Minneapolis, it was many ethnic minority business owners who had their premises burnt to the ground and had their livelihoods destroyed.

[caltrek]

 

You are grabbing at straws when you say there is a significant difference between people who can "only" trace their ancestry to the late 19th century versus those who can trace their ancestry down to the 18th century. To me, that does not even pass the laugh test. Of course, that is a highly subjective opinion on my part, so I am open to counter evidence form sociological studies, etc. 

Well I should have specified there I guess, but I was talking about mid-late 20th or even 21st Century arrivals, not the 19th Century (nowhere did I say the 19th Century). 

 

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Still, a lot of us preceded the groups that you are talking about. Importantly, we can trace our heritage back to at least the 19th century or very early twentieth century.  So we can and do provide guidance for the new arrivals. There is also a naturalization process whereby immigrants who want to become citizens must display a basic knowledge of civics. So, that includes some understanding concerning the Constitution, etc.

[joe00uk]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Still, a lot of us preceded the groups that you are talking about. Importantly, we can trace our heritage back to at least the 19th century or very early twentieth century.  So we can and do provide guidance for the new arrivals. There is also a naturalization process whereby immigrants who want to become citizens must display a basic knowledge of civics. So, that includes some understanding concerning the Constitution, etc.

Yes, but they don't suddenly become the same as other Americans - not that that's "better" or "worse", but people preserve their differences for generations and that's natural. People should keep their own traditions, their own heritage, their own culture - but part of that means different peoples remain separate to one another and constitute different nations (that is, when you get into the root of the word 'nation' which refers to 'birth'). Hispanic-Americans aren't the same as African-Americans and they aren't the same as White Americans, who in turn aren't the same as Native Americans - and that's after a very long time of living together in the US. 

[TranscendingGod]

@Transcending God and Futurist:  I did not mean to ignore your points as I think they were also quite valid.
 
Edit: Transcending God and I posted above at almost the exact moment. It is very gratifying that he and I perceive things in largely the same way on that point.

No, it's fine. I don't even know why I'm responding to this. Joe has a priori decided that it is impossible for there to be peace with diversity. As Americans you and I know that 99.99 percent of interactions between people of different groups whether they are class, race, or religion based are cordial. It's not hell on the streets. Black neighbors aren't at white neighbors throats. White, black, and anyone else can marry and most people are fine with it. Catholics and Jews live peacefully together. Poor and rich people shop at the same stores.

The United States won't break apart soon. Something fundamental would have to change.

[caltrek]

 

Joe, most of the protest were peaceful. I live in this country. You don't. Don't try and tell me what went down in my own neighborhood.  What most major American cities saw in terms of metropolitan "riots" is what they saw on television and through the media. A distorting lens if ever there was one. 

So because your own neighbourhood was peaceful, Minneapolis didn't suffer extremely destructive violence. Did you not also see everything through the media, or did you actually tour every American city?

 

There are plenty of Americans - including ethnic minorities themselves - who recognise how widespread and destructive these riots were. Ironically, in Minneapolis, it was many ethnic minority business owners who had their premises burnt to the ground and had their livelihoods destroyed.

 

 No, I also base my judgement on alternative news sources and sociological studies that come to the same conclusion, although perhaps I should have mentioned that in my earlier post.  Point is, I read the flyers inviting me to the protests, or drove by while they were occurring.   It has also been my experience that violent protests receive far more media coverage than do non-violent parades and protests.  Gay pride parades in San Francisco come to mind. I traveled there once and witnessed an astonishingly huge parade of that type. Came home - not a peep on the local news, much less the national media.  One of many many such examples.

 

i am not saying that violence is not a part of our history. Just that you folks relying on media sources are going to get a very distorted vision of what is gping on.

[joe00uk]

No, I also base my judgement on alternative news sources and sociological studies that come to the same conclusion, although perhaps I should have mentioned that in my earlier post.  Point is, I read the flyers inviting me to the protests, or drove by while they were occurring.   It has also been my experience that violent protests receive far more media coverage than do non-violent parades and protests.  Gay pride parades in San Francisco come to mind. I traveled there once and witnessed an astonishingly huge parade of that type. Came home - not a peep on the local news, much less the national media.  One of many many such examples.

 

 

 

i am not saying that violence is not a part of our history. Just that you folks relying on media sources are going to get a very distorted vision of what is gping on.

Okay, fair enough, but just because there were a large number of peaceful protests as well doesn't mean that somehow violent riots didn't happen or that they weren't widespread. If there were 10,000 incidents of protests this year in America and 90% of them were peaceful, that still means there were 1,000 which were violent. If your business burned to the ground or if someone you knew was injured or even killed, it isn't much comfort if other protests were 90% peaceful.