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An interactive map of the US's historical racial and ethnic diversity by county for every US census year between 1960 and 2060


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#121
caltrek

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Futurist: Native Americans, mestizos, and whites are able to coexist relatively harmoniously in Latin America, no?

 

Not that I agree with related points that Joe00UK has made, but no, they have not been able to always "coexist relatively harmoniously in Latin America."  I realize that I added the word "always" but if you study Latin America you begin to realize that there have been all sorts of conflicts, especially between Native Americans and whites.  In Guatemala you had a government that at one point pursued what I think can be accurately called a policy of genocide against its Native Americans.  Tensions in Bolivia are very much related to poor relations between Native Americans and whites.  Ditto Brazil.

 

Conflicts between economic classes often feature as an aspect such racial and ethnic tensions. So you presently have such Left versus Right situations in Venezuela. Past conflicts of this sort have also occurred in Chile, El Salvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, Argentina, etc.  Where relative order has existed, it sometimes is maintained  through harshly repressive measures, which are inherently unstable over the long term.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#122
joe00uk

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I suppose there is a potential that it could flare up as a problem that leads to a secessionist outcome, but that is far from guaranteed as a result and, frankly, hard to even imagine.

Well that's an issue for the leadership of black nationalist movements to contend with. Perhaps you're right, and any secessionist attempts or movements will fail, but if that's the case then I can't see how racial tensions in the US can ever be resolved in any meaningful way. The US will be like a zombie (as it already is, I suppose), dying but never allowed to finally die and put itself out of its misery.

 

Or perhaps, as Whites become a minority in the US, it will be they who take the lead in trying to separate somehow. Maybe with the growth of minority power, it will be Whites who feel alienated by an intact USA rather than African-Americans, Hispanics or Asians. Ironically, they may end up becoming the stalwart defenders of the Union and the tables will turn completely.



#123
caltrek

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^^^^ I think part of the issue is the extent to which racism and xenophobia are hard wired into us.  There are those who argue that such hatred is a learned trait, and can therefore be dealt with through more constructive learning practices.  They shift the emphasis, as in the lyrics to this song:

 

[Verse 1]
You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

[Verse 2]
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade
You've got to be carefully taught

[Verse 3]
You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught

 

https://genius.com/R...y-taught-lyrics


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#124
caltrek

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@caltrek: Off-topic, but if you don't mind me asking, what is your racial/ethnic ancestry?

 

Racial: Mostly European, but my great grandmother on my grandmother's side was Native American and married an individual who was either Hispanic or of Hispanic descent.  My great grandmother was probably Navajo.  

 

Ethnic:  Navajo(?), Hispanic and German.  Don't expect me to know much about Navajo culture, traditions, or history as I have had virtually no contact with Navajo communities. I would add the my wife is largely of Welsh, Irish, and French descent.  In the sense of having such a multi-ethnic background, I don't think my household is all that different from a lot of other residents of the United States.  We truly have been a melting pot.  Even blacks often have some European ancestry, hence their relatively light skin color as opposed to folks from "darkest Africa". 

 

Despite my heritage, English is the language in which  I am fluent.  I know and study a little bit of Spanish, but am not even close to being fluent in that language.  I started to learn German when I was a child and my father was stationed in Germany. I have forgotten most of what little German I did learn.

 

Anyway, that is probably way too much about my personal history, so I will stop here. 


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#125
caltrek

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No, there is also a Constitution that was drafted specifically with the idea of uniting many diverse communities into a united federal system. 

Yeah, how's that working out though?

Well, it was working out just fine until Trump was elected president. Unfortunately, he seems bound and determined to place the Constitution into a shredder and replace it with absolute rule by decree of President Trump.

 

Now, if Trump is defeated, we can return to some degree of normalcy on that front.  Still, that there is a faction that was willing to elect him president in the first place is highly disturbing to me.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#126
Futurist

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I suppose there is a potential that it could flare up as a problem that leads to a secessionist outcome, but that is far from guaranteed as a result and, frankly, hard to even imagine.

Well that's an issue for the leadership of black nationalist movements to contend with. Perhaps you're right, and any secessionist attempts or movements will fail, but if that's the case then I can't see how racial tensions in the US can ever be resolved in any meaningful way. The US will be like a zombie (as it already is, I suppose), dying but never allowed to finally die and put itself out of its misery.

 

Or perhaps, as Whites become a minority in the US, it will be they who take the lead in trying to separate somehow. Maybe with the growth of minority power, it will be Whites who feel alienated by an intact USA rather than African-Americans, Hispanics or Asians. Ironically, they may end up becoming the stalwart defenders of the Union and the tables will turn completely.

The problem for any potential white separatist movement in the US is that the US's urban and suburban areas are largely majority-non-white or at least quickly on track to becoming that way. The whitest parts of the US are rural areas, and rural areas are not enough to create a modern country by themselves.



#127
Futurist

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Joe00UK: Yes, so maintaining order in a diverse South had to depend on slavery. That's not exactly an ideal situation, to say the very least.

Yes, well they did have a Civil War to address that less than ideal situation.

And then they had Segregation, and to this day, African-Americans are generally dissatisfied with what life has been like in a majority white US. 

Undeniable that the U.S. has had, and continues to experience, problems related to past segregation practices.  That has been a chronic condition that is ever so slowly changing.  Despite that chronic condition, it has not resulted in significant movement toward secession, at least not after the conclusion of the Civil War.  I suppose there is a potential that it could flare up as a problem that leads to a secessionist outcome, but that is far from guaranteed as a result and, frankly, hard to even imagine.

I think that if there will be a major push for anything in this department, it might be for some sort of black autonomous region in the US. I know that Georgia, Mississippi, and Maryland are all on track to eventually become black-plurality, for instance.



#128
Futurist

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Futurist: Native Americans, mestizos, and whites are able to coexist relatively harmoniously in Latin America, no?

 

Not that I agree with related points that Joe00UK has made, but no, they have not been able to always "coexist relatively harmoniously in Latin America."  I realize that I added the word "always" but if you study Latin America you begin to realize that there have been all sorts of conflicts, especially between Native Americans and whites.  In Guatemala you had a government that at one point pursued what I think can be accurately called a policy of genocide against its Native Americans.  Tensions in Bolivia are very much related to poor relations between Native Americans and whites.  Ditto Brazil.

 

Conflicts between economic classes often feature as an aspect such racial and ethnic tensions. So you presently have such Left versus Right situations in Venezuela. Past conflicts of this sort have also occurred in Chile, El Salvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, Argentina, etc.  Where relative order has existed, it sometimes is maintained  through harshly repressive measures, which are inherently unstable over the long term.

Interesting; thanks for this information, caltrek! Anyway, what about Mexico?



#129
joe00uk

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^^^^ I think part of the issue is the extent to which racism and xenophobia are hard wired into us.  There are those who argue that such hatred is a learned trait, and can therefore be dealt with through more constructive learning practices.  They shift the emphasis, as in the lyrics to this song:

 

"Hatred", yes, but in-group preference is most definitely a natural trait that's been evolutionarily selected for over hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years.



#130
joe00uk

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Well, it was working out just fine until Trump was elected president. Unfortunately, he seems bound and determined to place the Constitution into a shredder and replace it with absolute rule by decree of President Trump.

 

Now, if Trump is defeated, we can return to some degree of normalcy on that front.  Still, that there is a faction that was willing to elect him president in the first place is highly disturbing to me.

Trump is the symptom, not the cause, of America's ills - otherwise Trump would never have been elected in the first place. The US Constitution has never effectively dealt with racial tension in the US, and it's inherently outside the capacities of such a large and diverse federal state to deal with them. 



#131
caltrek

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I suppose I would put Mexico as under the category of a country in which tensions exist revolving around class that might also affect race relations.  Mexico suffers under a system in which what we in the United States would call "rampant corruption" exists.  It is my impression, and I have not visited the country in several decades, that if is slowly and painfully moving in the direction of greater democracy and justice.  Hopefully, that perception is correct, and the positive trend will continue. 


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#132
caltrek

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^^^^ I think part of the issue is the extent to which racism and xenophobia are hard wired into us.  There are those who argue that such hatred is a learned trait, and can therefore be dealt with through more constructive learning practices.  They shift the emphasis, as in the lyrics to this song:

 

"Hatred", yes, but in-group preference is most definitely a natural trait that's been evolutionarily selected for over hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years.

 

 

I am not even sure about that. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't remember where, that woman often try to select sexual partners that are very different from the group to which they belong. The idea being that this reduces undesirable inbreeding.  Incest taboos are thought to be pretty universal in no small part because of this sort of thing. Of course, I do notice that couples often do look like each other, so I suppose that anecdotal type observation runs counter to my argument. Interesting question. 


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#133
Futurist

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I suppose I would put Mexico as under the category of a country in which tensions exist revolving around class that might also affect race relations.  Mexico suffers under a system in which what we in the United States would call "rampant corruption" exists.  It is my impression, and I have not visited the country in several decades, that if is slowly and painfully moving in the direction of greater democracy and justice.  Hopefully, that perception is correct, and the positive trend will continue. 

In your honest opinion, are heavily Mexican/Hispanic areas in the US considerably less corrupt than Latin American countries are?



#134
caltrek

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I suppose I would put Mexico as under the category of a country in which tensions exist revolving around class that might also affect race relations.  Mexico suffers under a system in which what we in the United States would call "rampant corruption" exists.  It is my impression, and I have not visited the country in several decades, that if is slowly and painfully moving in the direction of greater democracy and justice.  Hopefully, that perception is correct, and the positive trend will continue. 

In your honest opinion, are heavily Mexican/Hispanic areas in the US considerably less corrupt than Latin American countries are?

 

 

Yes.  In part because the rule of law is more prevalent and deeply ingrained in the U.S.  At least until Trump came along with his "just us" approach to the Constitution, etc.  

 

I worked for a city government in a predominantly Hispanic community that included many immigrants from Mexico. That work included a project of interest to a particular community within the city.  Organizers working with that community told me of how they had to explain that it was not a good idea to offer me a bribe to help them because that was just not the way things were done in the United States.  I was already sympathetic to their desires for the project in question and worked with the organizers to persuade the city council to support the project.  That persuasion consisted of presentations by community organizers of an informational nature to the city council, accompanied by a large turnout of the community at the council meeting to demonstrate their support of the project.  So, no bribes were involved.  

 

Had bribery of City Council members (or of myself) been involved, there would have been a serious risk of legal repercussions, including possible jail time, etc.  Of course, that is not to say that campaign donations do not play any part in the decision making process made by politicians in the United States, or that actual bribes are never attempted. Just that the art of the actual bribe is less practiced in the "heavily Mexican/Hispanic areas" in the U.S.  as compared to countries such as Mexico. In this case, laws and the relatively rigorous enforcement of such laws help shape the political culture.  I have had conversations with individuals who established small businesses in Mexico who openly admitted to me their use of bribes in obtaining the permissions needed to run their businesses in that country. They explain that is just the way things are done in Mexico.  I know of know such instances in the United States except through media reports, and then with no noticeable increase in frequency of such behavior in "heavily Mexican/Hispanic" areas in the U.S. Furthermore, such reports in U.S. media often involve trials for such criminal conduct.


The principles of justice define an appropriate path between dogmatism and intolerance on the one side, and a reductionism which regards religion and morality as mere preferences on the other.   - John Rawls


#135
funkervogt

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Futurist,

 

Have you considered that average national IQs and group IQs within nations will become much less relevant, and maybe totally irrelevant, once AGI becomes widespread? If intelligent machines are vastly smarter than humans, and do all the thinking for us, and if robots are vastly better workers and do all the work for us, then won't the qualities of human populations stop mattering in the future? 

 

I think the concerns you have about human IQs have a limited time window of relevancy. 



#136
Futurist

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Futurist,

 

Have you considered that average national IQs and group IQs within nations will become much less relevant, and maybe totally irrelevant, once AGI becomes widespread? If intelligent machines are vastly smarter than humans, and do all the thinking for us, and if robots are vastly better workers and do all the work for us, then won't the qualities of human populations stop mattering in the future? 

 

I think the concerns you have about human IQs have a limited time window of relevancy. 

You know, I thought about that, but at the same time, I also don't want us to be overly reliant on machines (for fear that they might go rogue and won't be able to have anyone stopping them, and also because I'd actually like to see humans be capable of double-checking, say, extremely complex proofs to various mathematical theorems that AGI/machines have developed). Plus, there would need to be someone to build and repair these machines--or are we going to build other machines who are going to be capable of doing this? In other words, a machine loop?

 

So, Yes, I do support a larger role for AGI but at the same time I also want to uplift humanity. In other words, I don't want to put all of my eggs in one basket but rather to put my eggs in as many baskets as possible. The more smart people AND smart machines there are, the better! :)



#137
funkervogt

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The common refrain that goes something like: “Human workers will always be needed, because without us, who would build or fix the robots?” is actually false and illogical. The fact that we haven’t yet invented robots that can build other robots without human help doesn’t imply that it will remain that way forever, or that humans have some special, creative quality that can never be transplanted to machines. John von Neumann, who one of the greatest minds of the 20th century and a pioneer in computer science, theorized in his paper “The General and Logical Theory of Automata” that sufficiently advanced artificial life forms (machines) could make copies of themselves, including copies that were engineered to be better, and that there was no reason why humans would always be needed to build, fix, or improve the machines. We can be totally cut out of the loop, and I predict someday we will.

https://www.militant...the-terminator/

 

 

 

So, Yes, I do support a larger role for AGI but at the same time I also want to uplift humanity. In other words, I don't want to put all of my eggs in one basket but rather to put my eggs in as many baskets as possible. The more smart people AND smart machines there are, the better!  :)

I don't disagree with you. In fact, I think AGIs might actually appreciate the "redundancy" and unique ways of thinking that humans provide to civilization, and they'll keep us around for those reasons (even if they won't let us be in charge anymore). 



#138
Futurist

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Yes, eventually we could be able to build robots who are going to be capable or repairing themselves and/or repairing other robots. However, there would still be the issue/risk of robots going rogue sooner or later. As for AGIs allowing humans to continue existing, I'd absolutely shudder if humans' continued existence had to depend on the continued goodwill of AGIs who could go rogue at any moment! :(

 

I also oppose putting AGIs in full charge of the world. As in, humans can delegate certain tasks to them for greater efficiency but humans should still be able to remain the ultimate masters of their own destinies.

 

And Yes, I'm glad that we agree that putting our eggs in multiple baskets is better and that in addition to building robots and AGIs, we should also aim to uplift humanity and the human race as much as realistically possible. The former absolutely should NOT exclude the other, after all!

 

Some people might be upset if someone--even a well-meaning liberal transhumanist such as myself--talks about average racial and/or social class gaps in IQ, or average country gaps in IQ, or in regards to gaps in some other traits (criminality, corruption, et cetera), but really, the purpose of such discussions is to try figuring out a way to uplift all of humanity through things such as IVF plus embryo selection. I don't see a problem with eugenics so long as it is done voluntarily and non-coercively. For those of you who are going to criticize me for this, do you also oppose the abortion of Down's Syndrome fetuses? What about having people select sperm/egg donors based on desirable traits of these donors? If you support these things, just how exactly is what I'm proposing here meaningfully different from these things? Completely serious question, by the way.



#139
Computron

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You care too much about IQ.

#140
Futurist

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You care too much about IQ.

Read Hive Mind and get back to me on that! ;)






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