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Resurrecting the dead / Mind uploading

resurrection nanobots mind uploading

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#121
Alric

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I was thinking about this the other day and I was wondering what a person would do if they were born at a time before cryonics. I think with cryonics your brain is preserved well enough that you will be brought back to life. It might take a long time but as long as your brain there it is just a matter of time. So what I was thinking is, what if you had your brain and it was preserved in a jar? It would be significantly more damaged than one saved with cryonics but could you possible revive a person from a 100 years ago that saved their brain like that? I do not think a person is really saved if all the data in their brain is lost. So I don't think it will be possible to revive someone who died and their brain rotted away, though you could clone them or something.

#122
Zeitgeist123

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how i wish its technologically possible to revive the dead long gone. just imagine having a nice cup of coffee with an ancient greek philosopher.

Edited by Zeitgeist123, 23 May 2012 - 02:08 AM.

“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#123
Caiman

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I've merged these threads together considering the existing one was active recently and they're discussing very similar issues.

~Jon


#124
Craven

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http://www.ted.com/t...nt_species.html Very, very, very long introduction, ending with interesting stuff, including outline of mind uploading.
"I walk alone and do no evil, having only a few wishes, just like an elephant in the forest."

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#125
SG-1

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If reversible bio-stasis becomes possible, I will do it when I can afford it. I will come out every 20 years to see what's going on until I can upload my mind. I don't really have anything to "live for" here as far as people are concerned. Maybe that will change by the time its possible. What I don't want to happen is to save that for when I'm an old geezer and then get myself killed in an accident.

Hey.  Stop reading.  The post is over.


#126
MarcusAurelius

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I still think mind uploading is a very fanciful notion. People say that even a backup or a complete copy of a person will never be that person. But advocates of mind uploading then argue that this copy will be you in every possible way, down to the very synapses and neurons that make up the copy's brain. But that will be akin to having an identical twin. They will never be you, and you will still be at the mercy of death. I find the idea of the self being secondary to the ability to copy and duplicate ones identity for the mere purpose of as a little disturbing. This pseudo immortality is not sufficient or satisfactory and more pandering to the whims of ego than a practical choice for those who want to live forever (or a very long time) When you resurrect a person or loved one, like what Ray Kurzweil proposes to do with his faher. Its merely a sentimental act, and one of self aggrandizement. Although I am sympathetic to his plight, having seen Transcendent Man. But what he sets out to do will be a substitute and in memory of his father. Almost like a living shrine to his old man. But realistically speaking it will never be his father. Unless he can pluck him from the past in a time machine and give his father immortality by way of smart nanotechnology. Other than this, mind uploading is still a very impractical method to life extension. And by most accounts, still sounds like copying the original while letting the original die. We will in that sense be littering the world with avatars of people who no longer will exist.

#127
kjaggard

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Actually I have mixed thought on this. First off, ditch the time travel schtick. That in my mind takes it from serious conversation to laughable. Not saying a person couldn't travel back in time, because theoretical physiscs hasn't adamantly done away with that one. But generally speaking 1972 one moment and 1972 with a small swarm of nanobots in it that didn't exist before in the time line requires a splitting into a pocket timeline. Your poppa would still be dead you'd just have grabbed an alternate reality version that you created by making the timelines split. But at any rate I hope we can pull of some version of it. I'd rather like to be able to scan my brain structures and thought patterns and maybe even hold brain activity in a simple neural loop (sort of like thought energy flywheel) until such time as a new body could be made with my brain in it down to the last atom and then shunt my energy back into it. I'm not sure my body is going to make it to seventy let alone eight or ninty and there too much I still want to do and see. Failing that capability cryoinics may be a good try. Cloning somebody won't raise them from the dead. The memories won't be there. You'll just have a twin. If your could directly map a persons brain would having the exact same brain structure and starting it up equal the same person. Maybe, it a person is in fact a function of the structure of the brain. Like if you could stop all function of the brain instantly and then start it again is it the same person or just the same memories? Does it matter? If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck and walks like a duck... So somebody who thinks they are me and remembers my life like me but isn't me should be allowed to live as me for as long as they want. What do I care, I'll be dead and gone. But there are some indications from radical brain surgery that the nature of self identity is a little more 'dispersed' than that. Split brains often have sense of identity seeming to reside in one half of the brain and being dominant but the other half of the brain seems to develop a personailty of it's own. Speculation suggest that rejoining them together would not obliterate one or the other but 'mindmeld' them. Essentially identity may be an addative process and loss of some or part of the whole does not obliterate any part of the identity. But brain structural differances can change a persons perspective and behaviour. So Identity may be inherant in some aspect of brain structure and grows as brains grow, and yet be intact as sections are lost, or behaviours change. To date the only examples I can think of for this mode of opperation are Fractals and Holographs. build them bigger and the seed which generates them remains the same, break them into peices and each peice is functionally the same as the whole because the seed which created it is the same seed represented in each peice. Ideally we would want to be able to find whatever it is that functions as the fractal seed of a persons personality. Having that all other things could rot and disappear and all you would need was a body which you could reinsert the seed into. Of course it'd be nice if you also had a copy of the memories too so the person didn't reboot as an infant. But it's possible that by sampling somebodies thought processes say by data points of collection from journals and paintings and such which would decode the influance of seed patterns on the performance of some tasks and in all the little markers left behind (imagine it like your whole life is a wax cylinder and everything you do that leaves a trace in the world is marked by the frequency of your seed). All that's needed is a system so advanced it could clean up the degradation and noise in the recordings and a large enough sample volume to give it a larger database for refinment. You might wake with a start, having blinked out of existance at your time of death only to be resurrected far in the future, starting over again as a child of the future with no memories (unless they choose to include manufactured memories of the past they managed to peice together from you life history) but still you and not a clone or copy. Or maybe they just have a new person. In the end I'm not sure it matters. It either works or it doesn't. But that's just my theory on the process. I'm verbous today, but I should stop there I think.
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#128
Zeitgeist123

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^^thank you for your POV above. One question though, you suggest that if your brain can be exactly replicated down to the last breadth, it would still be you, right? so imagine if they replicated 2 of your brain at the point of your death, which one is the real you?

“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#129
kjaggard

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^^thank you for your POV above. One question though, you suggest that if your brain can be exactly replicated down to the last breadth, it would still be you, right? so imagine if they replicated 2 of your brain at the point of your death, which one is the real you?


I said no such thing. I said we don't know enough about the origin of a persons identity. A exact replica of a persons brain may think it's that person and seem to be that person and yet not be.

It's also possible that if I died and you froze me and they thawed me centuries from now and my brain was not damaged by the process, then they reanimated my body and woke it that it still wouldn't be me.

For all that we know the conciousness isn't the matter of the brain it's the electrical signal that is constantly moving about the nervous system and the brain is just the recording and data storage method. It's also possible that the conciousness is infact found in the arrangement of the neurons of the human brain and the energy flowing through it is just the power it uses.

So in the first case storing the energy and allowing it to persist past the body would be needed, in the second case a means of duplicating the brain of repairing it to functioning states would be needed.

If you made two copies of the same brain in a new body and animated them they might be entirely new people in the first case, unless you found a way to duplicate and implant the original energy pattern into more than one body. In the second case you might well have the same person twice.

In the case of duplicates of the same person they would be duplicates not linked unless you found a way to allow the two to be connected either wired or wirelessly. In the case of brain structure duplication making duplicates it's the same thing. Unless the two are wired together they are distinct seperate individuals both being the original.

What that experiance would be like can only be guessed at (at least until they find a way to wire back together persons with alien hand syndrome and other conditions of split hemishpere conditions. If reintegration of those conditions causes reabsorbtion of the identity of the 'alien' hand with a marked change in personal identity then that may indicate that our sense of identity is something that can be ddevided and seperated and possibly even spliced and melded.

It's also possible that the experiance of more than one lifetime can happen. Back when I was in highschool I had a theory of reincarnation that was based on the neural fractal/holographic pattern theory I came up with. Basically if there are a finite number of fractal patterns available is it possible that the same pattern came up more than once in human history? If we accept that as possible, does it even have to be human? If we accept that is it possible that my pattern is occuring more than once at the same time (am I here in multiple bodies right now?)?

In trying to conceptualise that, I started with the idea of a person who dies and then twenty years later a baby is born with that same pattern. The person awakes to that new life and continues. So what happens when two people born at the same time have the same pattern? either the pattern splits or the person becomes one person, dies and then goes back and become the other. In the case of the split two lifetimes are lived and then when they die and the pattern emerges again it's one person again. So in reality it would be fairly indestinguishable which was which unless there is something of each life brought into the next, ie memories or fears and behaviour patterns. The only reason to care one way or the other about that tidbit is what it say about the nature of time and human consciousness if we can go back along the stream of time for another round of life in the same time frame. (Imagine living as a taxi driver and getting killed by one of your customers only to go back and be born when your taxi driver self is a year old and one day you are on a bussiness trip into the same city, you might meet your past life before you die then it becomes really important to know wether there are mental or emotional things that come through from one life to the next. But then you have to ask, what happens if I change a past I've already experianced?) But it also would have a bearing on wether we can be frozen and reanimated, or if we can be uploaded, or if we can be split and duplicated.

there is just no way to know right now, and when we do start to get answers they are likely to be hard to figure out, because somebody who thinks they are me can't tell if he really is or not. And somebody who doesn't remember who they are or anything about this life could very well be me. You just can't tell because we have no way other than a persons body, genes and personal perspective of themselves to distinguish a person.

The only way to find out I think is to take as many measures of a persons brain functions and energy patterns as we can and then stop a persons brain function completely and then restart it and test all the patterns again. and repeat the process over and over until we see wether the pattern remains the same across the board. This would be the simplest test of wether or not energy sinatures are the identity or the brain matter. Then it becomes a question of, if it changes, this may be a different person who thinks they are the person whose body they are in. Where do these 'people' come from and where do they go (energy not being destroyed, according to physics)? But if everything comes back the same it could be evidence that we are bound to the structure of the brain. And all the questions that entails (like those suggested above).
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#130
Zeitgeist123

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thank you! it was very insightful. man, if this "energy pattern" you've theorized turns out to be true, then we can definitely say that science can definitely resurrect a dead person even without suspended animation or mind uploading. just as long as the "original energy pattern" has been precisely captured. at this point we can truly say that this is where science meets metaphysics, literally. however, there is another thing that got me thinking about this. suppose that the energy pattern is true and is the way to define someone or the "self", what happens to the original brain if it was damaged, say by dementia, injury, drugs, amnesia or trauma such that it totally changes a person's personality and outlook and is now totally different from the previous self had this circumstances not happened . which one would be the real you now - is it the brain or the "energy pattern"? edited: i want to give an example to make my question more simple. A hypothetical story: you got into a freak accident and would have died if not with the 2 already possible technology below. #1: the technology to capture your brain's "energy pattern" prior to your death is already possible. then it would mean that you can be revived at any time without the need to put you on suspended animation at the last second of your life. #2: that there is already a technology that can put you on suspended animation and after a few months you were already scheduled to be revived as soon as curing and healing of your body is completed. now suppose that they have this 2 options to resurrect you. suppose they opted to revive you by the #2 option, however when they "woke" you up, something in your brain, probably due to injury, has been damaged or slightly tweaked that it changed your personality entirely and you were not the person you were before you almost died. which one is the real you: option #1- the energy pattern prior the accident or #2 - your brain?

Edited by Zeitgeist123, 18 June 2012 - 09:08 AM.

“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#131
Sorok

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Just curious....there have been multiple threads regarding global warming and it's impact on the food supply. Further to that, the world's population has more than doubled in the last 50 years. Seriously, would resurrecting the dead really be a good idea? I mean, doesn't that go against the ole Spock standby..."The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" ?
"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future"

#132
Logically Irrational

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I imagine that resurrecting the dead, if it's possible at all, is a far future technology. By then I don't think population will be a problem.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

#133
MarcusAurelius

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Exactly population is a problem we pesky humans are still yet to resolve mainly due to our provincial thinking and inability to work together on large global projects like pervasive aquaculture, verticle farming and in vitro meat production. Also our inability to integrate some truly revolutionary energy technologies into our major cities, like tidal power on a massive scale, I'm talking about capitalizing on the cross continental ocean currents that will really give us outstanding energy gains unmatched by current technology of today. This and large desalination projects should ensure water security as well as food security. The next step would be aiming for the heavens.

#134
kjaggard

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We have enough space in this solar system if we built an enclosing sphere at earth distance from the sun to house every human who has ever lived on the inside of the sphere with room to spare. Build something like that around four more stars and unless we really desire to spread like cancer I don't see humanity having that issue much past having perminant human settlements beyond earth. I can't imagine we'd have the capability let alone the desire to do so until at least that point.

Besides would we want to bring them back before we had the ability to let them live forever? Think about it. If I could bring my grandmother back right now, I wouldn't. She died in her sixties from breast cancer. By todays standards she could have likely been treated and maybe had another twenty years if really lucky but that's about it. I'd wait until I knew we could give her a younger version of her healthy body that would at the very least double her life span before I even tried. Don't buy somebody another five to ten years as an old or sick person. Give them a second life time, if not that immortal after death that some religious folk expect after dieing.

thank you! it was very insightful. man, if this "energy pattern" you've theorized turns out to be true, then we can definitely say that science can definitely resurrect a dead person even without suspended animation or mind uploading. just as long as the "original energy pattern" has been precisely captured. at this point we can truly say that this is where science meets metaphysics, literally.

however, there is another thing that got me thinking about this. suppose that the energy pattern is true and is the way to define someone or the "self", what happens to the original brain if it was damaged, say by dementia, injury, drugs, amnesia or trauma such that it totally changes a person's personality and outlook and is now totally different from the previous self had this circumstances not happened . which one would be the real you now - is it the brain or the "energy pattern"?

edited: i want to give an example to make my question more simple.

A hypothetical story: you got into a freak accident and would have died if not with the 2 already possible technology below.

#1: the technology to capture your brain's "energy pattern" prior to your death is already possible. then it would mean that you can be revived at any time without the need to put you on suspended animation at the last second of your life.

#2: that there is already a technology that can put you on suspended animation and after a few months you were already scheduled to be revived as soon as curing and healing of your body is completed.

now suppose that they have this 2 options to resurrect you. suppose they opted to revive you by the #2 option, however when they "woke" you up, something in your brain, probably due to injury, has been damaged or slightly tweaked that it changed your personality entirely and you were not the person you were before you almost died. which one is the real you: option #1- the energy pattern prior the accident or #2 - your brain?


The way I've always looked at it is to realize my identity as me and my memories/feelings/coordination are not the same thing. When I was born I was me, I crambed lots of information into me and yet I am still me, I could have radical surgery on my body and cut limbs off and still be me. If my body undergoes endocrine imbalances I'm still me, and if they heavily medicate me I'm still me. We can change and alter my body, shrink my brain with old age or grow it from when I was a baby to now and beyond, we can cause depression and mess with the chemical balances in my brain. Through it all the essensce of me remains me.

I suppose it's easier for those of us that saw computers before we were teens to think along these lines because we had that as a source of referance. We could think that every person is a computer and each computer has an operating system (back in my early days that system came on a floppy disk you used to boot the computer up). That operating system was that computers identity. Everything that computer did could be sorted and held temporarily in RAM (like short term memories) but could also be loaded onto long term storage (these days that would be hard drive space or flash drives, these are long term memories). The computers speed is dependant on the hardware and it's ability to play music depends on the sound card. You can add or subtract hardware and applications software to increase or decrease capability but ultimately there is always that operating system that makes it, it.

If you put another boot disk into the machine and started it up with a different version operating system it's not the same computer. You could make it do everything the first one did and you could even load the same long term memories but it wouldn't be the same system. Functionally its identical, in essence it's not. It's the almost the reverse of a clone, same body same memories different person.

But the important thing to remember is that if you have a stroke and lose memories, or go blind from head trauma, or suffer severe depression, that's a hardware problem. It's not you who is damaged, it's the machine you are in.

and that stand for brain structure based identity as well as the energy pattern in both my theories because for all the evidence I see that is the case. So when I came up with these ideas I took into account that the human brain changes all the time, in fact it's part of why I was asking the question in the first place. How can a baby be born so completely incapable and have so many brain changes that it could work out how to walk on the moon someday and yet we have this constant sense of identity?

So energy signature me is something like a boot disk, I can be popped into any machine and be me, but I'd have the memories of whatever long term storage system you hooked me into and the body you gave me.

Or Brain structure me has a holographic seed number of (lets say) 80039742. You could damage or remove whole chunks of my brain you could atomise the whole thing, but just grow a tiny gerbil brain using the holographic seed number 80039742 and I'm back. I won't have my memories or my body but I'll be me.

Heres the thing though. If I brought back either of me without memories in it, by the time we should be able to do that sort of thing we should also be able to upload new memories into me too. We could go through journal and fill my mind with that, we could create whole first person movies based on my life and upload those. We could have surviving friends and family tell stories about me untill we could make those memories into movies and upload those. You don't remember that time three weeks ago you went to the bathroom and chances are the thing you remember most about three weeks ago you don't remember perfectly. But through this method we could recreate the data of a person and match it to the identity of a person in a new healthy body.

Even better though is they are beginning to discover ways to see what you are remembering with MRI scans. They can show you a TV clip and then when you remember the images they scan your brain and they get something that translates to a series of blobby smears like a very blurred image. But they compare that image to the ones they showed you and it can usually match it to a specific image. So for now the resolution is crappy and they havn't completely integrated the five sense yet, but there is time.

Eventually we should be able to set up a helmet and synch it to you and get decent resolution images and experiances form you as your tell your life story and talk about yourself with people around you. You might even want to forget some things or at least edit them so they hurt less. and then we could have a record to upload into future you. Then it just becomes a question of wether we can get you holographic seed number by anaylising your brain structure, or we store your energy signature.

I think early on until we are sure we know that it wouldn't hurt in the least to store the energy in a loop and see if we can find a seed number in brain tissue samples. cover all the bases. In the seed number case your could conceivably do it while you were alive still and copy over your memories too. You'd be in that version too but it'd be like talking to your future self or a parallel reality self that's only different in the fact that alpha centauri 4 has an extra crater on it's moon (aka same you in two places but not sharing conciousness at the same time).

The energy signature one is trickier and a part of me wonders if the energy signature could be grown, or duplicated. If the signature is lost but the details of it are know could it be fabricated from scratch bringing you back from dispersion? It makes me think of the 'luminous beings' of the force in the Star Wars universe or the vorlons in Babylon 5.
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#135
Mr. G

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kjaggard said: "But the important thing to remember is that if you have a stroke and lose memories, or go blind from head trauma, or suffer severe depression, that's a hardware problem. It's not you who is damaged, it's the machine you are in." You must be a dualist. I am not. Going by the scientific evidence that I have read all evidence points to the opposite what you've said. When people have severe brain damage often their personality changes. I know this first hand. My stepfather had a stroke and he became a completely different person. Upon research, I realized that this is quite common. It is true that our brains are never exactly identical from one moment to the next, but there is a tremendous amount of redundancy built into our brians that keep our personalities quite robust. This of course is a selected trait that evolved to help aid our survival. Some people believe that even when we fall into deep sleep that for that instance we don't exist at all. However, the information (brain tissue) that defines us still exists. To me this arguement is like saying that a light no longer exists when it has been turned off. The key to understanding if mind uploading is possible is to understand who the "you" or "I" is. This is the Hard Problem of consciousness and NOBODY on this earth really knows the true answer. However to me, Daniel Dennet's ideas make the most sense. His ideas are summed up in this video. In a nutshell he propounds that consciousness is an illusion. Most people find this to be incredulous. I find it extremely unsatsifying, but his critics don't do a good job of pointing out problems with his theory and I can find nothing wrong with it as well. So, to sum up my current thinking. The universe does as the universe does. Free will is an illusion and so is consciousness. Mind uploading is impossible because there doesn't seem to be any person to upload. Usually I like to be right, but in this case I would gladly be wrong. G

Edited by Mr. G, 24 June 2012 - 06:13 PM.


#136
kjaggard

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kjaggard said:

"But the important thing to remember is that if you have a stroke and lose memories, or go blind from head trauma, or suffer severe depression, that's a hardware problem. It's not you who is damaged, it's the machine you are in."

You must be a dualist. I am not.

Going by the scientific evidence that I have read all evidence points to the opposite what you've said. When people have severe brain damage often their personality changes. I know this first hand. My stepfather had a stroke and he became a completely different person. Upon research, I realized that this is quite common.

It is true that our brains are never exactly identical from one moment to the next, but there is a tremendous amount of redundancy built into our brians that keep our personalities quite robust. This of course is a selected trait that evolved to help aid our survival.

Some people believe that even when we fall into deep sleep that for that instance we don't exist at all. However, the information (brain tissue) that defines us still exists. To me this arguement is like saying that a light no longer exists when it has been turned off.

The key to understanding if mind uploading is possible is to understand who the "you" or "I" is. This is the Hard Problem of consciousness and NOBODY on this earth really knows the true answer. However to me, Daniel Dennet's ideas make the most sense. His ideas are summed up in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ol4sHasA8

In a nutshell he propounds that consciousness is an illusion. Most people find this to be incredulous. I find it extremely unsatsifying, but his critics don't do a good job of pointing out problems with his theory and I can find nothing wrong with it as well.

So, to sum up my current thinking. The universe does as the universe does. Free will is an illusion and so is consciousness. Mind uploading is impossible because there doesn't seem to be any person to upload.

Usually I like to be right, but in this case I would gladly be wrong.

G

Gah! that was the most tedious video ever on the nature of consciousness.

He spend that vast majority of time trying to tell people that perceptions are not a person and tricks can be used to convince a brain of things that don't exist. That's a hardware analysis effecting memories stored.

Let me see if I can do a simple short lay out of how what he offers in no way precludes what I offered:

Yes your fathers stroke changes his personality. Because in my example we are not personality. personality is a tool of interaction with the outside world or data stored.
Loss or gaining memories are not who we are either. they too are tools that are used.

So you could build a model of your brain down too the quantum level (as he himself used as an example) and you more than likely wouldn't be in it if you managed to animate it. The exact model would have your memories and may think it's you but that's just his magicians trick. It's just thinks it's you. So hardware and memories are not us.

That's as far as he goes because not finding us in hardware and not find us in stored data he sees no other place we could come from and assumes a system in which data and hardware are all there is because that's all he sees. But his vision is just as susceptable to illusions or omitted details as a magicians audiance. And it's in such a way that it self feeds.

Let me ask you this. If there is no pilot in your vessel just an automated vessel then there is nothing lost when you die right? You can't lose what wasn't there in the first place.

How about this then. Say we exist for a day, and each night we disappear and somebody else wakes with our memories the next day convinced they are us. Every moment eve, we might blink in and out of existance to be replaced by somebody who thinks they are us in the next moment.

So in either of those cases, the recreation of a body with our memories and exact neural layout might not be us, but it would be no less us than the us we will be tomorrow. In other words by creating a new body for us and duplicating the memories of us and attempting to transfer us we could well "only" achieve transfering the empty ship to and empty ship, or a ship with a regularly changed crew into another ship where they regularly change crew. All the while the illusion that makes us think we are one person or that we exist at all persists from one being to the next.

In other words: I think therefore I am delusional, but my uploaded/copied self thinks therefore I am still delusional. At which point it doesn't matter.

On the other hand if he is missing key peices of data on identity and I am in fact in existance and persist throughout my life, The methods to relocate that persistent entity to another medium seem to be there.

Before today I didn't have memories of that video, now I do. My memories have been changed, but either I think I'm not a different person (or even a person at all) or I am. In either case that suggests the memory is not me but something additional put into the system, a decoration if you will. So I am not my memories.

Your fathers stroke changed the way he behaves and possible his ability to move and sense things. But he either is the same person or he is not (or again was never a person to begin with). If he is not the same person then he was changed by brain structure and brain structure costantly changes, thus he was not a persistent individual identity but a series of changing ones. In which case the illusion of a persistent person who is changed by brain structure would still carry over in an upload/or transferance. If he is not a series of persons just a single entity whose behaviours changed due to structures changing in the brain, than brain structure, senses and behavior are not what make us up either.

So either there is a part of us that remains us despite all changes and allows us to persist as a single identity or there is not. If there is not, then it is an illusion and can be maintained as an illusion doing exactly what would work if there was a persistent self. If there is a persistent self than their is a means of distinguishing it from what it is not (ie brain structures, memories, behaviors, emotions, senses, energy patterns ect) and finding ways to preserve that aspect while replacing those things which were additions to it (brain structures, memories, behaviors, emotions, senses, energy patterns) and perhaps expand and augment them.

Either case works for what most people want from uploading and life extension. The preservation of who we think we are past the point we see as our current end.
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#137
Livid

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Preserving life is fine but resurrecting people is iffy at best. Here is my reasoning when people have been born blind some can be treated to be given sight and can get very depressed. The world they imagined to be is nothing like the world as it is, the same will apply to people who imagine the future to be flawless utopia. Also they could come from a time very different to the time when people can be resurrected and find it very hard to adapt.

#138
kjaggard

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Preserving life is fine but resurrecting people is iffy at best. Here is my reasoning when people have been born blind some can be treated to be given sight and can get very depressed. The world they imagined to be is nothing like the world as it is, the same will apply to people who imagine the future to be flawless utopia. Also they could come from a time very different to the time when people can be resurrected and find it very hard to adapt.

I always found that study fascinating.

My take away from it though (based on my experences with my own health problems) was more that it's at least in part a self identity issue. There were things I expected that didn't turn out as expected and I adapted. It was when I went from identifying as one things and suddenly that was taken away from me and I couldn't identify from the perspective of who I used to be and hadn't figured out who I was now. You feel like you are a non-entity.

Two approach to the people waking up from distant past could be managed. Give them a copy of their world with the simple change that they will not sicken and will not die, and maybe having children is off the list too until they decide to have one and know that it will not die and they can devote themselves to that. And gradually acclimate them to ever expanding truth and reality.

Or let them come into the future shock full force and coach them into a new sense of identity and let them opt out if they choose.
Live content within small means. Seek elegance rather than luxury, Grace over fashion and wealth over riches.
Listen to clouds and mountains, children and sages. Act bravely, think boldly.
Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.

#139
Zeitgeist123

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wow that was a lot of information that i lost track of what i would like to argue about. but i appreciated the insight. anyway let me just do a summary if what i think about what kjaggard and Mr. G said. 1.) I find the analysis of hardware and data and RAM to be insufficient when dealing with your 'self', the brain and body, and the memories/personalities as I think that our body and brain are more integrated, which then would make a computer too simple for comparative analysis. 2.) while the 'energy' that kjaggard theorizes is wonderful idea, we still cannot prove it at this time. i still cannot grasp how we can determine our real self with the hypothetical question ive asked kjaggard in the previous post. (brain vs memory: which one is 'You'?) 3.) i think that consciousness is definitely an illusion created by nature for us to survive, live longer and therefore continue reproducing our specie. the illussion that our lives have meaning or things that make our lives meaningful are ultimately subjective. objectively, the "self" has no purpose other than to aid in enforcing evolution. 4.) since i believe that our consciousness is an illusion, i have a problem dealing with the fact that even if we are going to be able to create an exact replica of ourselves, we wont still be the original. or how about we were able to create two of my "self" at the same time? it would be similar to having conversation with your parrallel self. though, what's horrible about it is that both of you actually exist in the same universe.

“Philosophy is a pretty toy if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life. But if one pursues it further than one should, it is absolute ruin." - Callicles to Socrates


#140
kjaggard

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4.) since i believe that our consciousness is an illusion, i have a problem dealing with the fact that even if we are going to be able to create an exact replica of ourselves, we wont still be the original. or how about we were able to create two of my "self" at the same time? it would be similar to having conversation with your parrallel self. though, what's horrible about it is that both of you actually exist in the same universe.


If consciousness is an illusion, then neither of you is the real you. If there is no consciousness, there is no 'you'. You are either real or you are not, if you are not then then there is no way for the second person to be less 'you' than the original. (I have two imaginary coins in my hand, which will buy me the most food? Are they of equal value? Are they in fact the same imaginary coin repeated?)

If the original is more you then the duplicate than it fairly well nessecitates some aspect that is not an illusion. thus it's something real and real things can be identified. (I have a silver dollar and a gold dollar. are they the same coin? If I have only the silver dollar left which one is missing?)
Live content within small means. Seek elegance rather than luxury, Grace over fashion and wealth over riches.
Listen to clouds and mountains, children and sages. Act bravely, think boldly.
Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.





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