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The Problem with Utopia:


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#1
jjf3

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this is pretty much other information that is floating out and about on my other posts, but I combined it all together so we can talk about this topic easier.


It doesn't matter what system you have; Be it a Kingdom, military rule, capitalism, socialism and/or the fantasy of communism or utopia. Humans are greedy. It's in our nature. You can't blame capitalism for the world's problems. Blame human greed, because human greed was around much longer than any political system!!!

Competition and hence greed arose as early as humanity itself. We are the only species that can think as well as driven by our instincts. If one tribe got more food one day, than your tribe would want to get more food than them the next day. It makes us feel good to beat people, like in that way. That one tribe could have shared it with your tribe but, they feel that you don't deserve it, because you didn't work for it.

Why the competition? Power and Greed! Sure you all need food in your tribe to survive, but you would want to be in the best, biggest, strongest, and smartest tribe and you show that by the amount of food you have or in our case now stuff. As long as there is stuff to be acquired there will always be means of acquiring said stuff, and ppl will want more stuff!

Hence why our society is NOT a utopia and shares everything with everybody. This is also the main reason why Socialism can never work the way most ppl dream about.

Communism will never happen because humans are greedy and they will never learn how to share anything equally including ideas. That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Socialism has been tried and is failing right before our eyes. USSR completely collapsed and China is on the verge of collapse or complete gov't change.

Indeed, America has helped brainwash certain people about how 'evil' these two ideals are. Especially in the previous generation when it was all out attacking communists left and right and anybody who looked at you suspiciously was a communist. It's pretty much the same way majority of Americans are treating Arabs people today. As much as I hate to admit it, that's prejudice, and America shouldn't condone it. But this is a touchy topic because of what happened on 9/11 and since!

These are great ideals but sadly will never spread throughout the world, partially due to America's police force and partially because of the fact that humanity is just not wired that way.

I don't believe that capitalism is the reason for the worries of the world. It's the Wall Streeters and the rich families of the world that really control it. Even if somehow our society became socialists or communists the rich would still rule the world, because it would be the rich that set the system up. Technology would still be around even without capitalism, but its likely that the everyday citizen wouldn't have access to it. Think about the countries like Libya (which combines socialism and islamic traditions) and where Gaddafi has complete control over the entire technological community. I don't think that's soo much better than our system.

Every year the most powerful people in the world get together to talk about what they are going to do inside their own companies, private wars, economic policies, and what they will force the gov't to do. Every four years companies and the rich families invest in presidential campaigns. If you lack their support you will likely not make it to the primaries. This is why we see major GOP candidates dropping out of the race already. Then the most powerful corporations go on an all out spending spree after the nominees are elected and they invest, invest, invest. Oh yea and there have been too many elections where there appears to be some type of mysterious lost votes that can never be found and a very close call!!!!

I'm not talking about lowly politicians and random CEOs here. I am talking about the old money families who made their fortunes in the industrial era, and whom now control our very world behind closed doors: the Rockefellers, Morgans, Rothchilds, Fords, Vanderbuilts, Du Ponts, and the Lehmans among a select few others like Sudai kings, royal princes and princesses, the royal British family, and a few celebrities. Maybe some tech guys are headed up there now. These people control the world's money and money controls the world!

I'm sorry but the way most people want socialism to work, will never happen because the rich control everything. That wasn't brought on by capitalism, that was brought on by pure human greed. Even if we were to go back in time and become, communists or socialists, there would still be greed among those high profile rich families as I stated before. And also, would you rather be under Stalin's rule? Or Maybe even Hitler's? Most of the rich families in the world invested in Hitler's One World Government when they tried to set it up. America however, fought back along with a few others.

Even the world socialist movement has realized that their system would eventually become overrun with greed and consumerism/mechanization. "Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism." (http://www.worldsoci..._capitalism.php)

If the world was socialist and communist we wouldn't even have purchasing power because the gov't would tell us what to buy/need to survive and you couldn't buy or own anything else. The rich would still have everything they have because they are rich and pretty much above the political systems they put into place.

Other counties in the world like China, EU, Libya, Egypt are struggling to keep there systems in place just like the US. No one's system is the best, but I think Capitalism is a little bit better than the others. It has worked ok-ish for the countries that have adapted it. Certainly lasted longer than Russia's USSR, China's communism, and Hitler's One World Government. The EU is now struggling as well.

It's the main reason world peace is a silly concept. In this state, world peace cannot be achieved because there will always be those ppl who want more stuff! Maybe with a smaller population, more brainwashing drugs and technologies, and a one world gov't system socialism will work well, but that is not what we have on this world, and it won't happen (if ever) for a very long time.

At some point in the future we could get a world gov't of some type (2050?) but it won't really be a world gov't, because there will always be the 'terrorists' and the rebels.

Considering this, lets go back to the so-called communist utopia that ppl dream the world will be one day. If somebody produces 500 items who decides who gets those 500 items first? When do they get them? Why do these people get them first and not me? Are they better than me? Do they have more power? You couldn't distribute it to all the people all at once. Could you? And if so why? Why do these people deserve your product first? Why should I even make it for them? What are they giving me? and Why would that help me? Who will decide what gets traded for what? See what happens without money? Laziness and confusion.

There are sooo many questions for a utopia society like this to set up that it seems nearly impossible and it makes perfect sense as to why our society evolved the way it did. Because frankly there could be no other alternative.


This coming July 4th marks the anniversary that America's so-called evil capitalist society has been around for 235 years!!!! For awhile there we were the strongest Nation in the world, and we still are one of the strongest nations in the world. Live with it! Because you can't go back in time and change the past to make the world socialist, something that couldn't possibly happen anyway.

I welcome debates http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbsup.gif
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#2
Wesfky

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Even the world socialist movement has realized that their system would eventually become overrun with greed and consumerism/mechanization. "Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism." (http://www.worldsoci..._capitalism.php)

You do realise that the person who wrote that was not refering to socalism, but that of "Market Economy".

It is also possible (at least in theory) to have a free market economy that is not capitalist. Such a 'market economy' would involve farmers, artisans and shopkeepers each producing a particular product that they would exchange via the medium of money. There would be no profit-making and no class division—just independent producers exchanging goods for their mutual benefit. But it is doubtful whether such an economy has ever existed. The nearest that may have come to it would have been in some of the early colonial settlements in North America. Some Greens wish to see a return to this kind of economy. We do not think that it is a viable alternative for modern society. Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism

I suggest you re-read that whole web site, as you clearly missed what socialism is, giving that you incorrectly referenced it or give that the source said, "not capitalist", made you automatically assume that they were referring to socialism.

The quote you are looking for from the same source is...

In fact, socialism as we define it could not exist in one country alone—like capitalism it must be a global system of society.

Which basically makes several, if not all of your arguments about socialism wrong and invalid.

But never the less I liked how you got your quote about socialism from the What is Capitalism page, you should probably read the What is Socialism page (http://www.worldsoci...s_socialism.php)

And to quote a hater...

Typically, I wouldn't even bother to acknowledge someone so thoroughly devoid of logic and reason, but as all your posts reek of dogmatism -- despite lacking anything resembling intelligence, rationality, or sensibility -- I made an exception.

...for this one sentence.


Good Day http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/coffee.gif

#3
jjf3

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Well, how could they not be talking about socialism on their own website??? I don't understand what you are talking about there. If they were talking about Market Economy why not say Market economy? But no, they said, socialism. As I mentioned before I actually do my research and am unbias towards others' beliefs. While I welcome the idea, I find it impossible to believe that without money our society would be as far as advanced as we are technologically today. Competition is good. It makes you want to do things better than the next guy. It forces you to innovate your ideas and make them different. If we were communist nobody would care about this stuff. Ideas would just be in their primitive state and there would be no more advancements. If Facebook was communist, there wouldn't be a public facebook it would still be on the harvard.edu domain as thefacebook.com. Google would still be a search engine, Apple would only makes crappy PCs. Companies like these grew so large because they made money and they produced a service that the world needed. Of course, if any of these things even came to be with a communist state i would be shocked. Communism produces a lazy society. If we knew we only had to make the limited amount of goods and services that are needed to keep society running, we would do that and then, watch tv or play video games all day. Our early ancestors knew that they had to eat and eat well, and they did that by acquiring more food than the other tribes. The other tribes wouldn't share their hard earned food with your tribe if you didn't help them get it and sat on your butts all morning. More food means better living conditions, less starvation, less sickness, more babies, bigger group, which could be used to acquire more food!!! This early example leads right into greed and competition which leads to our society figuring out a way to get stuff from other tribes that have different stuff than you did. Early human settlements quickly adapted Gold into their culture because it was a measurable value and actually worth something to ppl. So they created a money system using Gold and everything had a Gold value or price to it. Smaller things costed less gold, bigger things more gold, more things more gold, rare things more gold. Even without any money humanity would still have to find a way to measure the value of the goods. if you have 20 chickens, what's that worth? Ok I will make you warmer clothes for 20 chickens, Is that fair?? If you say no you now have 20 excess chickens and no warm clothes and will freeze to death along with your chickens. Now the chickens become the money. I am not so sure, we can have utopia/communism/world peace in this complex a society. For now Communism is and always was a theory. It has never been produced by a single society, no society has existed without some value to some type of goods. If you find one please let me know!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#4
Wesfky

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Firstly let me just start of this post by saying, "I don't understand what you are talking about there." And now I will continue....

Well, how could they not be talking about socialism on their own website??? I don't understand what you are talking about there. If they were talking about Market Economy why not say Market economy? But no, they said, socialism. As I mentioned before I actually do my research and am unbias towards others' beliefs.

You are literally retarded.

On the web page, "What is Capitalism" it was concluded with an explanation of what a market economy is.

It is literally like saying, the off topic section of this forum is actually on topic, because this on the futuretimeline website right? It must be talking about the future.

But never the less you ignored this (or did not under stand it) and went on to protect your argument, even though I did not raise any points about it, just you miss quoted a website.



((warning the following is full of RAGE!!! http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/realmad.gif http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/realmad.gif because I'm real mad!, Just read the finally paragraph for anyone other than jjf3, and if you don't like shouting over the internet.))

(reading past the first paragraph.)
You are fucking retarded. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif

Even without any money humanity would still have to find a way to measure the value of the goods. if you have 20 chickens, what's that worth? Ok I will make you warmer clothes for 20 chickens, Is that fair??

READ WHAT YOU QUOTE!!!! Its called a market economy, the thing you quoted, please for the love of god stop being stupid and read what you quote! Seriously, do you not read what other people write, as its clearly indicated so far in this thread that you don't.

If they were talking about Market Economy why not say Market economy?

THE FUCKING TOPIC SENTENCE OF THE PARAGRAPH! READ IT! FUCK

However I agree with your following point...

Communism produces a lazy society. If we knew we only had to make the limited amount of goods and services that are needed to keep society running, we would do that and then, watch tv or play video games all day.

Our early ancestors knew that they had to eat and eat well, and they did that by acquiring more food than the other tribes. The other tribes wouldn't share their hard earned food with your tribe if you didn't help them get it and sat on your butts all morning. More food means better living conditions, less starvation, less sickness, more babies, bigger group, which could be used to acquire more food!!!

I agree that starving Africans do not deserve food or medical aid (and should die), or anyone that is living in poverty, as they are sitting on their buts doing nothing; being lazy, watching tv and playing video games all day instead of feeding themselves. Seriously Africans just need to get a job and the same with the homeless, they are just homeless by choice. I hear being a slave in a sweat shop is great, making shoes and stuff. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif


In conclusion, I liked how you did not understand what I was talking about...

I don't understand what you are talking about there.

(I like how you started the post of with that, then continued)...so you promptly went on to defend your stance on the topic as I was merely point out how you miss quoted a source and what has be indicated now, not reading things you quote, then arguing about them.

#5
Nick1984

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Western Europe was a third world shit hole 1000 years ago, it didn't get to where it is today by handouts, it got there using the 6 killer apps... 1. Capitalism 2. Science 3. Property rights 4. Modern medicine 5. Work ethic 6. Competition Not much of that in Africa. Next you'll be using all the leftie excuses that Africa's problems were caused by Western imperialism!

#6
jjf3

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On the web page, "What is Capitalism" it was concluded with an explanation of what a market economy is.

I agree that starving Africans do not deserve food or medical aid (and should die), or anyone that is living in poverty, as they are sitting on their buts doing nothing; being lazy, watching tv and playing video games all day instead of feeding themselves. Seriously Africans just need to get a job and the same with the homeless, they are just homeless by choice. I hear being a slave in a sweat shop is great, making shoes and stuff. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif



Ok first off, sorry if I misread the website, but it is a website about socialism and the type of economy that they are talking about pair well with socialist and communist beliefs. That doesn't make me retarded. Try answering some of my questions, and maybe you'll understand my problems with Communism and why it can never work in this state of the world!

Couple things wrong with your ranting. You keep screaming market economy but Socialists praise lack of any economy and that is what communism is. If not, please let me know! And that is what I have been saying, that it is nearly impossible for a society to have no economy whatsoever. We value everything including our own lives. It's sort of wired in our brains. Not to mention that every society that has ever existed had an economy. Which still makes all this just a theory. Again if you find a true communist state in the world or in history please let me know!

Woah! I never said Africans deserve to not get food or to die. That's absurd, outrageous, and just mean! You are twisting what I am saying. They try to feed themselves but the greedy war lords and drug dealers who run the countries don't care about the ppl and that leaves most of the population out to defend themselves. So in a way Africa is closer to Communism and/or socialism than any gov't today. It is a perfect example of why Communism wouldn't work. These warlords say they are helping the nation, but in reality they are using the ppl and resources for their own personal civil wars with neighboring drug lords and dictators. These ppl do deserve to die, but not the families trying to survive in that hellhole, and not the rebels trying to revolt. The warloards are rich, so they bought up all the resources and tease the ppl with them so they can get them to do w/e they want. It's pretty horrible! They need a lot of outside aid, and nobody cares.

How could you say, the homeless are homeless by choice? Nobody wants to be homeless. That's like saying all people in jail are guilty and deserve to be there! While a lot of them are drug dealers or hookers some are our veterans (who could not adapt to life after war) some have become bankrupt by the recession, some have been hurt by greedy financial tycoons like Bernie Madoff and had all their money taken from them. Oh wait! What's that I'm seeing again? GREED http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbsup.gif The homeless are homeless because other people are greedy!

Truth is I can give you many, many, many reasons throughout history and the present that support my conclusion that greed is what keeps communism from becoming reality. I cannot imagine a society where there is no greed! Even without money, people will still want more stuff than the next guy and they will figure out a way to measure it!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#7
Wesfky

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Not much of that in Africa. Next you'll be using all the leftie excuses that Africa's problems were caused by Western imperialism!

I too agree that Africans are only good for their value as capital as slaves, their rubber and their diamonds. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif



bankrupt by the recession

...capitalism.

That's like saying all people in jail are guilty and deserve to be there!

Did you know prisons in America are all privatised, meaning they are run for profit, meaning the more people in prison the better.
...capitalism

greedy financial tycoons like Bernie Madoff

....the capitalist?

I never said Africans deserve to not get food

They are the lower class, they live on less than a dollar a day, spend half of that on medicine, basically living horrible lives.
....capitalism

We value everything including our own lives.

But we do not care about any one elses
....capitalism

Competition is good

It is unprofitable to cure cancer, so a cure hasn't been made yet.
....capitalism

.... Apple would only makes crappy PCs.

Safety nets have been placed at the base of Apple factories in china as there is a record high of Apple employees killing them selves by jumping out of the Apple owned building. The point is, they did not try to solve the problem as you could still go across the street and jump of off a building, but as long as it is not on the company's property things are fine.
...capitalism

Wall Streeters

They have the job of moving money around in exchange for more money, where they have no benefit to society.
...capitalism

Every four years companies and the rich families invest in presidential campaigns. If you lack their support you will likely not make it to the primaries.

You can not think about running for president if you don't have a large amount of investors.
...capitalism

So they created a money system using Gold and everything had a Gold value or price to it. Smaller things costed less gold, bigger things more gold, more things more gold, rare things more gold.

Seriously, America just needs to print more money then they will be rich again.
...capitalism

It forces you to innovate your ideas and make them different.

No need to think about finite resources, or the damage to the environment.
...capitalism

How could you say, the homeless are homeless by choice?

Ronald Reagan, "What we have found in this country, and maybe we're more aware of it now, is one problem that we've had, even in the best of times, and that is the people who are sleeping on the grates, the homeless who are homeless, you might say, by choice."
Seems like they are being lazy in a capitalist society....

Communism produces a lazy society.


If we knew we only had to make the limited amount of goods and services that are needed to keep society running, we would do that and then, watch tv or play video games all day.

So it is possible to solve world hunger, poverty and pandemic diseases with enough time to play video games, wait what do most americans do, work for 8 hours, sleep for 8 hours and play for 8 hours. And do dare say that Americans never slacken off and are all ways working to better the world NOT by solving world hunger, poverty, and pandemic diseases.
....capitalism

competition

capitalism

power

leading to corruption, capitalism

sickness

capitalism

starvation

capitalism

greed

capitalism

I think Capitalism is a little bit better than the others.

Really? http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/coffee.gif

I raise Star Trek the Next Generation.

You see why not better yourself, rather than acquire material goods? The main reason I am so against capitalism is because, most, if not all of the suffering on Earth could end tomorrow (namely poverty, starvation, disease) but because it is not profitable to do so, it will not happen. But really I do not care because I am not poor. You said alot about how greed is human nature and that we have had it very early on in evolution and is the thing that made us survive, but I think we only evolved this far because we help each other, we did not stand idle when someone is in need, we did not profit from their losses. "An organism at war with itself is doomed" -- Carl Sagan

#8
jjf3

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You see why not better yourself, rather than acquire material goods? The main reason I am so against capitalism is because, most, if not all of the suffering on Earth could end tomorrow (namely poverty, starvation, disease) but because it is not profitable to do so, it will not happen. But really I do not care because I am not poor.


Congrats!!! You figured out that the world is run by money! But the world is not run by capitalism. There have been economies without capitalism but there has not been a true state of communism because it is an idea and a theory, probably won't happen for centuries to come until we can prefect some type of replication device making most things not profitable because everybody can reproduce their own stuff.

Africa is not run by capitalism its run by greedy drug lords and war lords. While these things are profitable, do you really think a warlord could stand the peacefulness of a utopia? He wouldn't be able to stand idly by watching everybody all happy and healthy. He would want people to fight each other for the sake of fighting each other. Terrorists don't crash into buildings or blow up bombs because of capitalism, they do it because they want to cause fear for their targets.

As you said we don't care for each others lives so how could we produce a communist state if we all don't care for each other? We hate certain groups of people and so we don't hang around those crowds, we don't interact with them, or we cause fights with them. We wouldn't be able to do that in a utopia society. And that in itself is against human nature. We are not meant to be mindless drones just producing what is needed for the good of society. If we did become that, what would make us different from the machines and the robots? It's what makes us human. All the bad and all the good.

Some things are good for society some things are worse, you can find the good and you can find the bad. It's a pretty good balance i think. We just hear more about the bad. Too much peace is a bad thing and will lead to boredom and revolts and hatred of said good! And again some people are born crazy, murderers, or very competitive. This stuff in the future may be able to be controlled with technology though, but not today. And never in the past!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#9
Nick1984

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If it weren't for capitalism we'd still be living in mud huts and hunting with spears you little cretin! Why bother training to become a doctor when, in your system, you'd still end up getting the same money as a street cleaner. Capitalism and competition are not just a human trait, they're a trait of every species. What if those early life forms hadn't possessed those selfish genes that lead to the fittest breeding and the weaker dying off? I'll end with a classic quote, if you're young and not left wing you have no heart, if you're old and not right wing, then you have no brain.

#10
jjf3

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If it weren't for capitalism we'd still be living in mud huts and hunting with spears you little cretin!

Why bother training to become a doctor when, in your system, you'd still end up getting the same money as a street cleaner.

Capitalism and competition are not just a human trait, they're a trait of every species. What if those early life forms hadn't possessed those selfish genes that lead to the fittest breeding and the weaker dying off?

I'll end with a classic quote, if you're young and not left wing you have no heart, if you're old and not right wing, then you have no brain.


Exactly why become a doctor when, you can easily just clean windows all day? Society needs that too! You have to go to school for countless hours and study massive amounts of material, or you can start contributing to society right away and be a window cleaner yes!!!! People become doctors so that all their hard work and hours of studying will be paid off b/c they make insane amounts of money. Yes, you do save lives and all that, but most doctors become doctors for profit.

Ok, if that's not how the system would work and your job was based on a lottery system or an elected system, who runs that? Who chooses who could be a doctor and why? Why should I be trained to be a doctor? Why not him? See the questions??? I would like some answers to these questions by a communist supporter.

There are so many questions for a communist/utopia state that I seriously doubt that society could have evolved that way. I however, definitely see some more types of communist ideas raising up in the future as computers continue to take over. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbsup.gif
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#11
OrbitalResonance

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Technocratic Mixed Economy

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#12
Wesfky

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Why bother training to become a doctor when, in your system, you'd still end up getting the same money as a street cleaner.

Have you ever heard people say, I became a doctor because I wanted to help people?

If it weren't for capitalism we'd still be living in mud huts and hunting with spears you little cretin!

So? we do not need it anymore.

#13
Wesfky

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Peace is bad.


I hate you so much.

#14
jjf3

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Peace is bad.


I hate you so much.


Peace is a good thing, Too much peace is a bad thing. We need a balance in the world. Ying and Yang. You can't have peace without evil etc... etc....
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#15
Wesfky

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Peace is bad.


I hate you so much.


Peace is a good thing, Too much peace is a bad thing. We need a balance in the world. Ying and Yang. You can't have peace without evil etc... etc....

If it's not 100% peace, then its not really peace.

I like how you used the Ying Yang:
For me to live, some one must die.
For me to buy a car, some one most have their car stolen.
For me to get better at playing a musical instrument, someone's skill must get worse.

#16
Nick1984

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Why bother training to become a doctor when, in your system, you'd still end up getting the same money as a street cleaner.

Have you ever heard people say, I became a doctor because I wanted to help people?


You're so naive it's unreal, why do you think doctors always earn more?

Judging by your personal attacks you're obviously some over emotional school kid. Once you get into the real world and have responsibilities you'll understand.

#17
Nick1984

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Communism Capitalism I know where I'd prefer to live.

#18
jjf3

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I know where I'd prefer to live.


You know what, these types of people are so not in touch with reality and how the world works that they will never listen to reasonable people who have reasonable ideas, thoughts, and questions about their supposed way of life. I have asked many, many, questions about how communism would be set up and this guy tells me I am retarded for misreading a line on a website, and stupid, and that he hates me!

To Wesfky: I would like you to answer the following questions. And if you go off ranting about my first paragraph without answering these questions I will not respond!

If somebody produces 500 items who decides who gets those 500 items first?
When do they get them?
Why do these people get them first and not me?
Are they better than me? Do they have more power?
You couldn't distribute it to all the people all at once. Could you? And if so why?
Why do these people deserve your product first?
Why should I even make it for them?
What are they giving me?
Why would that help me?
Who will decide what gets traded for what?

if you have 20 excess chickens, what's that worth?
Ok I will make you warmer clothes for 20 chickens, Is that fair??

We don't care for each others lives so how could we produce a communist state if we ALL don't care for each other?

why become a doctor when, you can easily just clean windows all day?

Who runs the job selection process?
Who chooses who could be a doctor and why?
Why should I be trained to be a doctor?
Why not him?

Why do we value everything including life?

See the questions??? If Wesfky can answer all these questions logically pertaining to communism then I will forgive him for his rants and/or stupid one word answers. If he answers this with a rant or blaming capitalism for everything, then I will know that communism can never be set in place because even communists do not know the answers to these questions. It's your turn Wesfky!!!!! Hopefully you do the right thing! http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#19
Wesfky

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You know what, these types of people are so not in touch with reality and how the world works that they will never listen to reasonable people who have reasonable ideas, thoughts, and questions about their supposed way of life. I have asked many, many, questions about how communism would be set up and this guy tells me I am retarded for misreading a line on a website, and stupid, and that he hates me!

Firstly, my original response to your post was merely pointing out the flaws of your post. Being that I noticed that you incorrectly defined a key subject and based most of your arguements around it.

I welcome debates http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbsup.gif

Well being the negative speaker I quickly made reference to you defining a key subject wrong and how you based your arguments around that and then went on to talk about ‘Market Economy’ which you did not define, but used the definition for socialism.

Even without any money humanity would still have to find a way to measure the value of the goods. if you have 20 chickens, what's that worth? Ok I will make you warmer clothes for 20 chickens, Is that fair??

If you say no you now have 20 excess chickens and no warm clothes and will freeze to death along with your chickens.

Ah mate, you just read about this... Oh wait you used the definition for socialism... At which point I asked you to re-read the website... which you did not.

Well, how could they not be talking about socialism on their own website???

At which point I told you to read the topic sentence of the paragraph... oh wait you did not re-read the website.
So at this point it quite clear that you have not corrected your errors of your arguments, as you continue to use the same points that you made from the false definition.
At this point I finally introduced my first point, made in sarcasm.

I agree that starving Africans do not deserve food or medical aid (and should die), or anyone that is living in poverty, as they are sitting on their buts doing nothing; being lazy, watching tv and playing video games all day instead of feeding themselves. Seriously Africans just need to get a job and the same with the homeless; they are just homeless by choice. I hear being a slave in a sweat shop is great, making shoes and stuff. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif


Sorry if I misread the website, but it is a website about socialism

Did you also misread the part of my post where I said...

It is literally like saying, the off topic section of this forum is actually on topic, because this on the futuretimeline website right? It must be talking about the future.

But you in turn said...

Try answering some of my questions,

Well firstly we need to get the definition right mate.


Couple things wrong with your ranting. You keep screaming...

I thought screaming was key to ranting, but continuing.

You keep screaming market economy

I was not making a point, I was merely pointing out the errors that you made, as you did not read the website and continue to not re-read it like I suggested, meaning that you do not unstand what you are talking about because you used the market economy for socialism.

...but Socialists praise lack of any economy

Using your logic:

but it is a website about socialism and the type of economy that they are talking about pair well with socialist and communist beliefs.

You mean the part where they said
"Such a system (market economy) would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism."
Yup socialist seem to praise this because they are talking about it on their website.

Woah! I never said Africans deserve to not get food or to die.

Well you did...

Competition and hence greed arose as early as humanity itself. We are the only species that can think as well as driven by our instincts. If one tribe got more food one day, than your tribe would want to get more food than them the next day. It makes us feel good to beat people, like in that way. That one tribe could have shared it with your tribe but, they feel that you don't deserve it, because you didn't work for it.

Now you are going to try to rebut that with “greedy war lords and drug dealers”

“These warlords say they are helping the nation, but in reality they are using the ppl and resources for their own personal civil wars with neighboring drug lords and “

Changing the subject to business...

“These businessmen say they are helping the nation, but in reality they are using the ppl and resources for their own gain with neighboring businessmen and businessmen. “

This is true, because capitalists look to maximise profits, it does not matter how many slaves die and how many oil spills there are, in the end these warlords are a perfect example of a capitalist.

However you said

It is a perfect example of why Communism wouldn't work.

Wait, didn’t we just talk about this...

Competition and hence greed arose as early as humanity itself. We are the only species that can think as well as driven by our instincts. If one tribe got more food one day, than your tribe would want to get more food than them the next day. It makes us feel good to beat people, like in that way. That one tribe could have shared it with your tribe but, they feel that you don't deserve it, because you didn't work for it.

..everyone living in poverty deserves to die. Long live the warlords and drug dealers.

Wait what...

These ppl (warlords) do deserve to die,

But you just said that warlords make Africa a capitalist place, so you are agreeing that greedy people should die so the world can become communist.

Nobody wants to be homeless. That's like saying all people in jail are guilty and deserve to be there! ... some are our veterans (who could not adapt to life after war)

So wait you are agreeing that servicemen should receive government aid, but isn’t that socialism, so no aid was every given to them, they were just locked in prison with the rest of their problems.
Similar story... the American Congress did not pass a Bill that would give health care to volunteers of ground zero. However this people are regarded commonly as heroes, but do not deserve health care.

Congrats!!! You figured out that the world is run by money! But the world is not run by capitalism.

You do realise I was pointing out why capitalism is bad, because all the suffering on Earth could end tomorrow if it were not for capitalism.

But the world is not run by capitalism.

Explain why there are so many people under the poverty line?

The other tribes wouldn't share their hard earned food with your tribe if you didn't help them get it and sat on your butts all morning. (Because they are lazy.)


There is another flaw in your logic here...

Africa is not run by capitalism its run by greedy drug lords and war lords. While these things are profitable, do you really think a warlord could stand the peacefulness of a utopia? He wouldn't be able to stand idly by watching everybody all happy and healthy.

Utopia, everybody is happy, but then the warlord is not happy because everybody is happy... paradox mate.

Terrorists don't crash into buildings or blow up bombs because of capitalism, they do it because they want to cause fear for their targets.

Terrorists do what they do because they want change. Political, animal and environmental advocates are considered in the USA to be terrorists.

#20
Wesfky

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As you said we don't care for each others lives

I did not know you were speaking for both of us.

Too much peace is a bad thing and will lead to boredom and revolts and hatred of said good!

I do not think you can call that peace then. Yes revolutions are good but they want peace... slavery, black rights and womens’ rights, are all considered bad by you.

While these things (poverty, starvation and disease) are profitable,

Profiting of off peoples suffering ... Why hasn’t any one done it yet?

what would make us different from the machines and the robots?

Machines can’t unionise.

And again some people are born crazy, murderers, or very competitive.

Actually, they just have one name, capitalists. But people are not born that way.

Truth is I can give you many, many, many reasons throughout history and the present that support my conclusion that greed is what keeps communism from becoming reality. I cannot imagine a society where there is no greed! Even without money, people will still want more stuff than the next guy and they will figure out a way to measure it!

Good thing you believe...

This stuff in the future may be able to be controlled with technology though, but not today. And never in the past!



Now that I’ve responded to your first paragraph by pointing out all the inconsistencies and logical flaws in your posts, I can now move on to answer your questions.

If somebody produces 500 items who decides who gets those 500 items first?
Firstly, what item is so scarce that there are only 500 of them in this day and age?

When do they get them?
Depends how fast your 3D printer can print.

Why do these people get them first and not me?
Because your 3D printer broke down? Anyways if it’s that important you can go to your neighbour and ask them to print off a 2nd, will only take an extra 10 seconds.

Do they have more power?
No.

Are they better than me?
I’m not implying it’s your fault for breaking your 3D printer.

You couldn't distribute it to all the people all at once. Could you? and if so why [do you mean how?]?
Well yes you can. “Why distribute it to everybody at once?” Because it is needed, if it isn’t needed people won’t need it at once. How? 3D printing.

Why do these people deserve your product first?
They do not have a broken 3D printer.

Why should I even make it for them?
Well you didn’t “If somebody produces...” and you wouldn’t or maybe society just needs one made of something? A giant spaceship maybe? In which case you wouldn’t use a 3D printer...

What are they giving me?
500 items.

Why would that help me?
You didn’t really specify that.

Who will decide what gets traded for what?
Everybody.


if you have 20 excess chickens, what's that worth?
20 times more than 1 chicken?

Ok I will make you warmer clothes for 20 chickens, Is that fair??
Well really it depends if you need warm clothing, in which case you are probably living in a place that is cold and food has a hard time growing there. But in a society were everyone’s basic needs are met, why would you trade a need for a need, but then again they wouldn’t be needs... if they are excess chickens then I guess the surplus will be shared equally or stored in chase there is an unforseen event that makes food scarce.

We don't care for each other’s lives so how could we produce a communist state if we ALL don't care for each other?
Is this a hypothetical question? Because I highly doubt 100% of humans do not care about each other.

why become a doctor when, you can easily just clean windows all day?
Because you want to help people? Why doesn’t everyone become an athlete on their favourite sports club? Go ask a professional athlete, when did you decide to become an athlete? You will never get the answer, “after graduating from high school I concluded that professional athletes make the most money with the easy input as well as benefits like getting healthier.” No, you will find that they will most likely say, “Ever since I was young I loved this game and if I could do this for a living, it would be heaven.” Notice how I said living not millions of dollars? “Wait I’m not getting payed millions of dollars to do what I love, but instead receive the average amount of income!” It is in this case of a cost-benefit-analysis that you will find people willing to accept the lowest amount of money. E.g. My dream job is being an astronaut, not because I would get paid more than a person who washes windows -- I would do it for free.

Who runs the job selection process?
The manager of a company.

Who chooses who could be a doctor and why?
Firstly, from a capitalism point of view. “Who has the most money to pay for a university degree to become a doctor?”
A qualified person? That is a doctor maybe? Because they are qualified?

Why should I be trained to be a doctor?
The way you have structured this question (and many others) is not very good, as you are assuming that I answer a certain way, this just indicates your narrow mindedness.

Because you want to? You have heard that doctors are in short supply so you will help by becoming one.

Why not him?
Again poor question, do you really want me to answer every question?

Firstly who? Ummm, because you are more qualified?
Because he is doing it for financial gain, not to help people? He already has a job? He can have it if he wants, the more doctors the merrier :D.

Why do we value everything including life?
Because they are scarce. Life is invaluable though, however in a capitalist society human life is different.

A producer makes more money if the good being produced is scarce, however things in this world are becoming less scarce, it is possible to feed everyone on the planet, but we don’t.

Sorry you only made 2.20 dollars today working in a sweatshop, seeing how medicine costs 50% of your income and you are the only one in your large family that can work because your father and older brothers died in the war because some foreigners “needed” the oil in your country, you get to die of hunger. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbup.gif

Human life is not considered valuable in capitalism, unless they are literally slavers, then they are capital.




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