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When will the next species of primate form/become part of civilisation?


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Poll: Primate Civilisation (19 member(s) have cast votes)

When will the next species of primate form humanlike civilisation?

  1. 21st century (4 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  2. 22nd century (2 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  3. 23rd century (2 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  4. 24th century (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  5. 25th century (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  6. 26th century (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 27th-30th century (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  8. 4th millennium (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. 5th millennium (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  10. 6th millennium or later (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  11. Never (6 votes [31.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.58%

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#1
FutureOfToday

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lol, sorry, I know this is my third poll in half an hour, but I've just got a lot on my mind this evening! What do you think?


Edited by FutureOfToday, 04 April 2013 - 01:14 AM.


#2
kjaggard

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at some point in the past I posted a question about whether people thought apes, Cetacea (dolphins and whales), and corvids (crows and ravens and magpies), might someday be granted citizenship in a nation.

 

I don't ask lightly. Each group has many members of their family whose brain sizes it proportion to their body is on par with chimps or slightly better. There are indications of language, and culture as well as tool use.

 

I think there is potential for a sort of auxillery citizenship for them, though I think it would be nigh impossible to have most of them within the culture of humans in the full context of our citizenship. A chimp wouldn't be able to see why killing somebody who angers them and isn't strong enough to defend themselves and stupid enough not to cower and hide from it. I really think our best bets are corvids. But I don't forsee them ever caring about let alone understanding voting for somebody and why they should pick one over the other.

 

I feel in all likelihood it will be more like Two species with seperate cultures interacting on occasion but with vastly different approaches to life.


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#3
StanleyAlexander

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Do you mean evolving to the point of civilization via natural selection?  Or by human action?


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#4
Time_Traveller

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I'm going to say they'll evolve around the 25th Century and i'd expect it'll be natural seleection not human action but cold be wrong.


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#5
CamGoldenGun

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if unaided by scientists, it would be tens of thousands of years before they would evolve to a stone age civilization and then another tens of thousands of years after that to get to where we are now... assuming their brains evolve as quickly as ours did.

 

If aided by scientists, a real "Planet of the Apes" (reboot) scenario could occur.

 

I believe with the destruction of their natural habitats and populations decreasing that the chances for either will be zero though.


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#6
FutureOfToday

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if unaided by scientists, it would be tens of thousands of years before they would evolve to a stone age civilization and then another tens of thousands of years after that to get to where we are now... assuming their brains evolve as quickly as ours did.

What if they saw human civilisation around them and learned from it? Do you think this would be possible to speed up their development without scientific aiding?

#7
CamGoldenGun

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No, because without human intervention to try and get them to pick the right number to do simple math (and getting rewarded with a treat), they just see our infrastructure as a jungle gym.

 

They'd have to reach a level of sophistication to realize that the steel re-bar coming out of the collapsed cement can be used for more than just digging or used for hitting their enemy over the head. 

 

If alien tech dropped out of the sky we'd try to reverse-engineer their technology but 20,000 years ago we would have either ran away from it or worshiped it. Keep in mind minimally sophisticated technology has only been around for the last 2000-4000 years, the biggest advances occurring about 1000-600 years ago (in terms of advancing past bows and arrows and studying the stars in any real depth).



#8
Zaphod

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For chimpanzees to evolve unaided to human level intelligence would be in the region of hundreds of thousands of years. With technology and intervention (far more likely) they could be adapted to our level with a century from now - whether or not they could be regarded as chimpanzees is debatable,but they would certainly be a different species from us.



#9
kjaggard

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No, because without human intervention to try and get them to pick the right number to do simple math (and getting rewarded with a treat), they just see our infrastructure as a jungle gym.

 

They'd have to reach a level of sophistication to realize that the steel re-bar coming out of the collapsed cement can be used for more than just digging or used for hitting their enemy over the head. 

 

If alien tech dropped out of the sky we'd try to reverse-engineer their technology but 20,000 years ago we would have either ran away from it or worshiped it. Keep in mind minimally sophisticated technology has only been around for the last 2000-4000 years, the biggest advances occurring about 1000-600 years ago (in terms of advancing past bows and arrows and studying the stars in any real depth).

stone tools, spears and bow are older then that by a large margin. as are clothing and pottery. there are examples of woven cloth, pottery and hand tools from 12,000 years ago in regions around the north sea.

 

Flint and obsideon tools can predate that by upwards of 100,000 years into the time when we shared common anscestors with neanderthals. And that's just the stone tools, there has been some speculation about the use of bamboo tech that wouldn't have survived after being dropped but would be at least as useful as bone and horn which was also used.


Live content within small means. Seek elegance rather than luxury, Grace over fashion and wealth over riches.
Listen to clouds and mountains, children and sages. Act bravely, think boldly.
Await occasions, never make haste. Find wonder and awe, by experiencing the everyday.

#10
CamGoldenGun

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agreed, but that only helps strengthen my point that it would take tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years for current primates to evolve to a point where human influence (or what's left of it at that point) would be reviewed as anthropology.



#11
OrbitalResonance

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I would like to see something like David Brin's Uplift universe. Though I would choose bonobos or gorillas over chimps ( i would really do all of them including orangs) Dolphins definitely.


Edited by ExplorerAtHeart, 06 April 2013 - 12:04 AM.

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#12
SG-1

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By the time we are able to intellectually uplift another species, we would probably have the ability to upload minds, or at least connect minds to an avatar.

 

The species that we would uplift would have to be genetically modified, and they would need a different brain structure and in most cases would need their brain size to increase, especially a form of neo-cortex. 

 

Would they even be considered the same species then?  We would most likely base intelligence off of our own brain, and modifying a brain to grow into a form that is similar enough in structure and capability to humans, would we consider these mutants to the same species as they were before they were uplifted?  This process would probably have to occur at birth, and if so they would have no memories of being a stupid animal.

They would have memories of being intellectually the same as humans. 

 

So, as any intelligent creature, having no opposable thumbs is not a good thing.  They would probably want human bodies as well..

So the concept of uplifting a species sounds nice, but is probably not going to work and if it did one day they would most likely want to escape their body as soon as possible.


Edited by SG-1, 06 April 2013 - 12:23 AM.

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#13
FutureOfToday

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I'm actually quite surprised that 30% of people so far think that no other species will ever evolve to form civilisation. I think that even if it takes thousands of years, at least one more species will evolve to have intelligence levels that equal a human's.



#14
Practical Mind

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Not that fast. It took millions of years for humans and possibly was triggered by some kind of cataclysm. 

 

Even if other species can learn "by example", I don't think it can be as short as hundreds of years. The process can be shortened if "contamination" occurs, that is, lab subjects like the bonobos and the dolphins participating in research are let back into the wild and start to teach their peers the benefits of using tools. (Not like in the Planet of the Apes, but maybe some similarities are feasible.)

 

Humans are part-social, part-individualistic species - a winning combination. Purely social species and societies are managed better, and, as a result, are stagnant: there is no immediate need for a change. Ants have been around for millions of years. Their organisation skills are perfect: very few software algorithms can rival them. They can survive inhospitable conditions, decimation of many members of a community, and worse. And this is why they don't have to evolve. 

 

In case of apes and cetaceans, this might be different. They are individualistic enough but have social structure. Furthermore, a suitable cataclysm may have happened: the humankind (even though the conservation efforts are somewhat reversing the effect). 

 

But even in this case, it will probably take tens of thousands of years, and the humans won't just keep watching. 



#15
SG-1

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Yeah I definitely don't think that it will ever happen naturally.  We have too much control over the environment for there to be a need for intelligence in other species.  We put them on endangered lists and nurse them back to acceptable numbers.  We keep track of natural environments and we can even go as far as cloning dead species back.

 

There would be no need for an animal to develop intelligence.


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#16
Alric

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I don't think anything on earth will evolved naturally to our level of thinking but I suspect we will modify them our self. I don't think an entire species will though, just individuals we pick from it. I also think it is more likely we will pick other types of animals. People don't want to think of them self as primates, so may very well pick things that do not look like us to elevate.



#17
Practical Mind

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"Elevating" is asking for trouble (just wait until the animals learn a more or less recent history, from taxidermy to animal experiments and zoos), so it's unlikely to come from the mainstream. But it's possible that some kind of fringe faction (something PETA-like) will want to accomplish that on purpose. 



#18
Alric

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I don't think that is to big of an issue. I mean just look at humans, we have done some pretty bad stuff to each other in the past, but most of us are not seeking revenge on each other for past actions.

 

Also I was thinking of like dogs, which are generally well treated. Give your dog human level intelligence and it will likely be very friendly.



#19
Practical Mind

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I wouldn't bet on it. It'd be enough if only 5% are resentful. Even with dogs! How about a fraction that will declare war on Korea? 

 

BTW, that could be a great premise for a sci fi book or movie or series. 


Edited by Practical Mind, 07 April 2013 - 09:15 AM.


#20
SG-1

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I think it would be great to elevate EVERY living thing on Earth one day.

 

Imagine a world where every living thing is able to think.  That and we can all upload our minds and inhabit any body we want.


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