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Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'


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#41
TheComrade

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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census...

 

What census you talking about? Do you think modern historians have some "list of residents of Judea" with their names and occupations, made by Romans 2000 years ago? No, i don't think so... As for Tacitus, as far as i remember he only mentioned "followers of some Christ, executed by emperor Nero" and nothing more. Also, Jesus was "mentioned" in book of Josephus Flavius, but this is almost for sure the later "pious insertion" of some medieval monk-scribe.

 

No, i'm not insist that Jesus 100% mythological character. Perhaps, there was some real prototype, so to say. Yet, there is still no real evidence of this.



#42
Italian Ufo

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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census...

 

What census you talking about? Do you think modern historians have some "list of residents of Judea" with their names and occupations, made by Romans 2000 years ago? No, i don't think so... As for Tacitus, as far as i remember he only mentioned "followers of some Christ, executed by emperor Nero" and nothing more. Also, Jesus was "mentioned" in book of Josephus Flavius, but this is almost for sure the later "pious insertion" of some medieval monk-scribe.

 

No, i'm not insist that Jesus 100% mythological character. Perhaps, there was some real prototype, so to say. Yet, there is still no real evidence of this.

 

The census of Quirinus. Some value it as a prove of the existence of Christ, but it is stll debated.

 

As for Tacitus he mentions Christus, but yes he doesn't talk in depth about him. But then my question is why he names him if he didn't exist at all?

 

Than you have the Talamud anf few other resources.

 

But I am pretty positive that existed after all.



#43
TheComrade

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The census of Quirinus. Some value it as a prove of the existence of Christ, but it is stll debated.

 

 

 

As for Tacitus he mentions Christus, but yes he doesn't talk in depth about him. But then my question is why he names him if he didn't exist at all?

 

Than you have the Talamud anf few other resources.

 

But I am pretty positive that existed after all.

 

 

I just did a small reseach. Yes, this census of Quirinus was a real historical event & we know some census was also mentioned in gospels... seriously, i failed to understand how it may serve as proof of something. As for Tacitus, here is the exact quote (from wiki):

 

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a [color=#ff0000;]class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin[/color], suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Juaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

 

Tacitus wrote this in early second century, 2-3 generations after the alleged death of Jesus. This whole quote shows he didn't know much about early christians & his phrase "Christus, from whom the name had its origin... etc" is just retelling the origin of christianity, according to those same early christians and other "populace".



#44
Italian Ufo

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The census of Quirinus. Some value it as a prove of the existence of Christ, but it is stll debated.

 

 

 

As for Tacitus he mentions Christus, but yes he doesn't talk in depth about him. But then my question is why he names him if he didn't exist at all?

 

Than you have the Talamud anf few other resources.

 

But I am pretty positive that existed after all.

 

 

I just did a small reseach. Yes, this census of Quirinus was a real historical event & we know some census was also mentioned in gospels... seriously, i failed to understand how it may serve as proof of something. As for Tacitus, here is the exact quote (from wiki):

 

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a [color=rgb(255,0,0);]class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin[/color], suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Juaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

 

Tacitus wrote this in early second century, 2-3 generations after the alleged death of Jesus. This whole quote shows he didn't know much about early christians & his phrase "Christus, from whom the name had its origin... etc" is just retelling the origin of christianity, according to those same early christians and other "populace".

 

 

I guess we may never know 100 % for sure. But read the annali. Again Tacitus in the Annales names Pontius Pilate and the condemnation of Jesus. 2-3 generations are not a lot if you think of it in order to construct a myth over a judicial sentence. the fact that Tacitus names this sentence of condemnation at that time it means that something really happened in my opinion. [color=rgb(240,255,240);] [/color][color=rgb(240,255,240);]Annal[/color][color=rgb(240,255,240);]es[/color], XV, 44

 

Also why other sources cite Jesus even for brief.

 

 

However, I agree that there is no scholarly agreement in all this. 



#45
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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census, Tacitus talks about him as well. Then if he was the son of God can be debated but I think he really existed.

Here is the Wikipedia article for this census: https://en.wikipedia...us_of_Quirinius

 

Also, as for the Son of God, if you mean in a literal sense, then No, I don't see that as realistic at all.



#46
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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census, Tacitus talks about him as well. Then if he was the son of God can be debated but I think he really existed.

Here is the Wikipedia article for this census: https://en.wikipedia...us_of_Quirinius

 

Also, as for the Son of God, if you mean in a literal sense, then No, I don't see that as realistic at all.

 

 

I have also doubt that Jesus was the son of God. He said that he would come back when at Jerusalem the blood would return. The blood has returned to Jerusalem I do not know for how many centuries now...and Jesus never came back.



#47
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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census, Tacitus talks about him as well. Then if he was the son of God can be debated but I think he really existed.

Here is the Wikipedia article for this census: https://en.wikipedia...us_of_Quirinius

 

Also, as for the Son of God, if you mean in a literal sense, then No, I don't see that as realistic at all.

I have also doubt that Jesus was the son of God. He said that he would come back when at Jerusalem the blood would return. The blood has returned to Jerusalem I do not know for how many centuries now...and Jesus never came back.

Yeah, that, along with the fact that if a paternity test for Jesus was done on all of the Roman males who were born between, say, 90 B.C. and 20 B.C., I am, pretty sure that a match (and just one match) will be found.



#48
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Have we ever considered what would actually happen if the guy actually did turn out to exist, and not only that but he actually returns at some point?

 

How would he get attention? How would he rise to power? Would he become incarcerated or written off as the 4,000th raving madman who thinks he's Jesus? How would we handle the mass hysterics that would grip the planet if he was discovered?


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#49
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Well in the Bible it pretty well makes it clear that everyone will know His return.  It won't be like him being born into a human body, it will be Him coming back from freaking outerspace along with God himself and angels, and before that the seven seals of Revelation will be unfolding; which are plagues pretty hard to ignore.

 

But hypothetically, what if God decided to just show His face tomorrow and start performing miracles that are completely undeniable.  What would you guys think?

What if God is an alien?  What if God is an alien that existed from another Universe before ours, what if created everything but decided to leave us alone?  What created Him?  Turtles all the way down.

 

I have a hard time believing in God rationally, but at the same time I have a hard time rationalizing the Big Bang theory.  I understand how the theory works and it all makes sense, but what banged?  Where did that matter come from?  Where did that energy come from, why does anything exist at all?  Shouldn't, logically, nothing exist?  Not even space?  Just complete, total nothing.  Not even nothing, no space, universe, no dimensions so that even if something could exist it wouldn't have any where to sit - forever.  But not even time.


Hey.  Stop reading.  The post is over.


#50
TheComrade

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Back to this census of Quirinus... frankly, i didn't know it, but wiki says this event was directly mentioned in Gospel of Luke:

 

"In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child."  - (Luke 2:1–7)

 

Excellent! Now we have a solid evidence that Jesus was born in the time of this census (6 or 7 CE)... but wait a minute! There is also a heartbreaking story of "Massacre of the Innocents":

 

"When the Magi had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. Get up, he said, take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him. So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Herod realised that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - (Matthew 2:16–18)

 

Excellent! Jesus was born under the reign of Herod, not later than 4 BCE, at least 10 years before the census of Quirinus... the Holy Bible said so!

 

===

 

Thus, let's be honest, we must admit that:

1) Gospels were written by those who personally knew Jesus, but at least one of two stories is deliberate lie. Or both stories, who knows... or:

2) Gospels were written by those who never knew Jesus and 1-2-3 generations after his death. Real authors of Gospels (clearly not Luke or Matthew) just confused some events (real and fictional), happened many years ago...

 

PS you guys may believe in whatever you want. But IMHO this all is a very questionable story... at least.


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#51
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But hypothetically, what if God decided to just show His face tomorrow and start performing miracles that are completely undeniable.  What would you guys think?

 

As atheist, I'd just think i was wrong... well, it would be sad, but not the first mistake in my life :) Though keyword here is "what if".

 

 

 

I have a hard time believing in God rationally, but at the same time I have a hard time rationalizing the Big Bang theory.  I understand how the theory works and it all makes sense, but what banged?  Where did that matter come from?  Where did that energy come from, why does anything exist at all?  Shouldn't, logically, nothing exist?  Not even space?  Just complete, total nothing.  Not even nothing, no space, universe, no dimensions so that even if something could exist it wouldn't have any where to sit - forever.  But not even time.

 

Who knows? One of possible explanations is that Big Bang was caused by some event happened in previous (parental, so to say) universe. And this parental universe also emerged the same way. And this chain of universes may be infinite... anyway, adding of God doesn't solve the problem. Someone may also ask something like: If God is infinite, while our material world is clearly finite, then what did He doing during the infinite time before created this world? If He do not infinite, then whence arose the God himself? Etc...


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#52
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Infinity..

it's impossible to have a chain of reactions that goes back for infinity without something to start it.

 

God existing doesn't make sense either, why?

WHY?

 

We may never know.


Hey.  Stop reading.  The post is over.


#53
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Has it occured to anybody else that maybe Jesus was reborn on earth and after being immersed in humanities ways for thirty some odd years just decided you can all just go $%^&* yourselves. I mean how hard is it to figure out what 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.', 'do onto others as you would have done unto your.', ect is hard to understand.

 

Volunteer to help the sick, hungry and dieing sometime and then look around at the rest of the population of the world and how right now people are so drenched in wrath, gluttony, sloth, envy, greed, lust, and pride. and what is worse is these things continue because good men do nothing.

 

So if Jesus did reincarnate maybe he is instead not here for most of humanity, maybe he's here for the few who die trying and never give up, not because some book told them or some religion is the way, but because they know it needs doing.

 

I'm not sure I count myself a theist, or an atheist, I know I'm not abrahemic as it's practiced today. I just can't help but feel that if there was ever anything like a god who came to earth today he probably died in some back ally in the slum for the contents of his pockets. He or she could keep coming back and trying to do good in the world and keep biting it before making a dent in the 7 billion interconnected lives caught in the cycles of use and abuse of each other.


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#54
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Well in the Bible it pretty well makes it clear that everyone will know His return.  It won't be like him being born into a human body, it will be Him coming back from freaking outerspace along with God himself and angels, and before that the seven seals of Revelation will be unfolding; which are plagues pretty hard to ignore.

 

But hypothetically, what if God decided to just show His face tomorrow and start performing miracles that are completely undeniable.  What would you guys think?

What if God is an alien?  What if God is an alien that existed from another Universe before ours, what if created everything but decided to leave us alone?  What created Him?  Turtles all the way down.

 

I have a hard time believing in God rationally, but at the same time I have a hard time rationalizing the Big Bang theory.  I understand how the theory works and it all makes sense, but what banged?  Where did that matter come from?  Where did that energy come from, why does anything exist at all?  Shouldn't, logically, nothing exist?  Not even space?  Just complete, total nothing.  Not even nothing, no space, universe, no dimensions so that even if something could exist it wouldn't have any where to sit - forever.  But not even time.

 

A common assertion by people who reject the Big Bang theory is that something can't come from nothing.

Well, nobody actually knows that. Has anybody actually seen true, horrible Nothing?

 

Perhaps Nothing is 100% prone to forming something, and any Nothing that has ever existed has been immediately replaced by something.

 

A good way to understanding Nothing is by imagining an ancient VHS tape as the universe. What comes before the 00:00:00:00 mark? There's no data, no time, no recording saved before 00:00:00:00. It just starts.

 

The part where you have to press the button to play it, however, is where the analogy falls apart because there's no guarantee that the universe was set in motion by a catalyst. As I said, nobody can actually know the properties of Nothing for certain.


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#55
Italian Ufo

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it would be nice to invent a time travel machine and see who Christ really was. By the way that's how Jesus may really look like

 

Posted ImagePosted Image
 
 
As oppose to this
 
Posted ImagePosted Image


#56
TheComrade

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= deleted =



#57
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We have several proves that Jesus existed as a person. He appears on a Roman census, Tacitus talks about him as well. Then if he was the son of God can be debated but I think he really existed.

Here is the Wikipedia article for this census: https://en.wikipedia...us_of_Quirinius

 

Also, as for the Son of God, if you mean in a literal sense, then No, I don't see that as realistic at all.

 

 

I have also doubt that Jesus was the son of God. He said that he would come back when at Jerusalem the blood would return. The blood has returned to Jerusalem I do not know for how many centuries now...and Jesus never came back.

 

 

i think there's some big misinterpretation in the disciple part when jesus christ said that he'll come back. he was literally saying that he'll come back for them because he was hiding as a fugitive from the roman empire.  theory states that jesus christ did not die during the execution, he was actually nursed back right after the being nailed to the cross by rich patron sympathizers  thus explaining the empty tomb. he later, try to move (of course very discreetly) out of the roman empire, passing india and spend the rest of his life in afghanistan until he died a natural death. his death was honored as he was an affluent figure in that area in afghanistan. he was not able to come back to jerusalem anymore although that was his plan, the disciples thinking that he was superman from coming back from the dead (jesus later bade them farewell and promised to come back) was waiting for him to come back. and when he didn't, they assumed that he will come back at the end of time.

 

 

the story says that jesus christ was not mainly an davocate of peace but a jewish revolutionary rabbi that the israelites are looking for and who they expect to save them from the tyranny of roman empire and jewish high priest and elites. jesus had a lot of popular following from where he lives (jerusalem) and so during the execution, there were a lot of sympathizers. you can definitely see that if you read the bible accounts pragmatically. the red flags are all there: a praetorian guard who is a sympatizer, a rich patron willing to let jesus christ borrow his tombs, thos other people helping jesus christ carry the cross, pontius pilate washing his hands (thereby removing himself responsible for the execution of christ and showing it to the public possibly to avoid political/mob retribution), on the cross, he was given a "vinegar" (possibly a strong analgesic/alcohol) to drink and then he died (or slept), he was brought down without his limbs broken down as is customary on every cross execution to make sure that the criminal is truly dead. and then boom! empty tombs after 3 days (it is customary during that time to visit the tomb after 3 days, for cleansing ritual purposes). so he might have been taken out from there secretly since day 1 and nursed back in some villa by the same rich patron who volunteered to provide jesus christ his family tomb.


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#58
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Maybe it was carved in there by God?



#59
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Well Hello to all, this is my first time ever on here. So yes, be gentle. But seriously, here it goes: EVERYTHING THUS FAR IS A THEORY or, people a multitude of people no offense  WHO DO NOT HAVE THIER FACTS STRAIGHT! Regarding Scientific Archaeological Finds, Which would and are carbon dated, to you name it. Too many THEORIES ON HERE. Tell me I am wrong?



#60
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Well Hello to all, this is my first time ever on here. So yes, be gentle. But seriously, here it goes: EVERYTHING THUS FAR IS A THEORY or, people a multitude of people no offense  WHO DO NOT HAVE THIER FACTS STRAIGHT! Regarding Scientific Archaeological Finds, Which would and are carbon dated, to you name it. Too many THEORIES ON HERE. Tell me I am wrong?

I don't see a problem in regards to having many hypothesis and/or theories here. If one intends to pass something off as fact, then one should provide evidence for it, but there is nothing wrong with stating one's opinions on here as well.






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