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Death penalty abolished worldwide?


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#21
Wesfky

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I'll just leave this here.
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#22
Roh234

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I'll just leave this here.
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Thanks! I prefer to be different.

What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty. -Hans Hermann Hoppe


#23
Caiman

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http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-15411372

Thought I’d stir this one again. I was just reading the above article on the BBC. It’s interesting because I think it illustrates how people are willing to flip flop on issues like this depending on the context. The death penalty doesn’t work as a deterrent, and I think this is evidenced on violent crime rates in countries that still practice it versus those where it has been abolished as discussed earlier in the thread. As a ‘punishment’ per se it’s just uncivilised and something of a hypocrisy, isn’t it?

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#24
jjf3

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I agree when you talk about mass murderers (seal beach) and people like Qaddafi, then its ok. But overall, its not ok, because some mistakes will be made? This is probably why I am more conservative. I don't understand how something can be right in some circumstances and wrong in others. This is why we have laws. It's difficult to make every law "right" in certain circumstances.
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#25
Unrequited Lust

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If you get abortion, then we get the death penalty. Although in recent years death seems like too easy of a way out. I think eternal solitary confinement with absolutely no human interaction for people like Anders Breivik is a suitable punishment and enough to make him feel regret, even if for the wrong reasons. I cold, dark cell with a flap for food and a toilet. After a few years, he'd be begging for the death penalty.

#26
Roh234

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What happens when Immortality is reality. Confining a person in jail for rest of their immortal lives............

What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty. -Hans Hermann Hoppe


#27
Unrequited Lust

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What happens when Immortality is reality. Confining a person in jail for rest of their immortal lives............

Immortality will never be a reality.

#28
Roh234

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What happens when Immortality is reality. Confining a person in jail for rest of their immortal lives............

Immortality will never be a reality.

You know what kind of immortality I mean. not the real indefenite lifespans. But lifespans over 5000 years which is a possiblility.

What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty. -Hans Hermann Hoppe


#29
truthiness

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I think we'll see more Western countries moving toward the Norwegian model for prisons and justice, which has already met with great success in rehabilitating even hardened criminals by treating them very humanely while isolating them from society while they serve their sentences. In Norway, prisons such as the now famous Halden prison boast a prisoner return rate of only 20%, compared with more than 50% in the US or UK.

Even if the amenities are relatively expensive, if your prison isn't acting as a revolving door, generating inmates that return over and over again, the cost to society both in direct prison costs and in losses due to crime will drop. These modern prisons in Norway treat the prisoners as human beings, and actively rehabilitate these people. The maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years.

We don't need to be the kind of society that kills its criminals or sentences them to serve the rest of their lives in a dank concrete dungeon. We ought to be doing better than that. We should get these people the help they need to become contributing members of society. No one really benefits from killing anyone, even out of revenge or in the name of "justice", and no one benefits from locking a human being away for the rest of their lives in a cell. No question, some people need to be taken out of society and put in a "penalty box" for a period of time, but while they're there why not do what we can to rehabilitate them rather than waste our tax dollars on bare-minimum feeding and sheltering them for that period?
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#30
Unrequited Lust

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I think we'll see more Western countries moving toward the Norwegian model for prisons and justice, which has already met with great success in rehabilitating even hardened criminals by treating them very humanely while isolating them from society while they serve their sentences. In Norway, prisons such as the now famous Halden prison boast a prisoner return rate of only 20%, compared with more than 50% in the US or UK.

Even if the amenities are relatively expensive, if your prison isn't acting as a revolving door, generating inmates that return over and over again, the cost to society both in direct prison costs and in losses due to crime will drop. These modern prisons in Norway treat the prisoners as human beings, and actively rehabilitate these people. The maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years.

We don't need to be the kind of society that kills its criminals or sentences them to serve the rest of their lives in a dank concrete dungeon. We ought to be doing better than that. We should get these people the help they need to become contributing members of society. No one really benefits from killing anyone, even out of revenge or in the name of "justice", and no one benefits from locking a human being away for the rest of their lives in a cell. No question, some people need to be taken out of society and put in a "penalty box" for a period of time, but while they're there why not do what we can to rehabilitate them rather than waste our tax dollars on bare-minimum feeding and sheltering them for that period?

No. I vehemently reject that philosophy. Prison is about justice, not rehabilitation. I don't believe in any afterlife, so it's up to people to administer justice. If you're Anders Breivik, you deserve to be put in dark solitary confinement with zero human interaction for the rest of your life. You will regret what you've done when subjected to such torment. You've already proven yourself to be a monster and you will be treated as such. You're no longer human in my eyes.

#31
truthiness

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What is justice, though? It's had a slippery definition as time (and values) have progressed. A medieval European would have scoffed at the cushy conditions our prisoners "endure" in America today. For lesser crimes, men were killed gruesomely and publicly back then. An American from just 150 years ago would be hanged for robbing a bank. Now he might do 5 years time, perhaps less for good behavior (or the right lawyer). With the American prison system as it is, he'll be likely to rob a bank again shortly after his release. Not so in Norway. I think the Norwegians are ahead of the curve. In the future, we will look back at "life sentences" or "solitary confinement" as cruel and unusual punishment. Our prisons will be seen as backward dungeons that treated men as animals. Dungeons, which only served to turn a person who was down on their luck into a truly unbalanced individual. The success of the Norwegian system speaks for itself. It doesn't generate repeat offenders. Criminals come out of prison as confident and balanced individuals, not feeling as though they lost some chunk of their lives, though they did lose their freedom for that period. Taking away an adult's freedom for a significant fraction of his one and only mortal life is a powerful thing. Can't that be enough? Or do we need vengeance? Do we need to take peoples' lives away from them, as they may have done to us? How does that advantage us, as a society? If you don't believe in an afterlife, and I don't either, isn't it up to us to administer compassion, forgiveness, and a shot at redemption as a show of respect for the singular mortal lives that we all have?
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#32
Unrequited Lust

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What is justice, though? It's had a slippery definition as time (and values) have progressed. A medieval European would have scoffed at the cushy conditions our prisoners "endure" in America today. For lesser crimes, men were killed gruesomely and publicly back then. An American from just 150 years ago would be hanged for robbing a bank. Now he might do 5 years time, perhaps less for good behavior (or the right lawyer). With the American prison system as it is, he'll be likely to rob a bank again shortly after his release. Not so in Norway.

I think the Norwegians are ahead of the curve. In the future, we will look back at "life sentences" or "solitary confinement" as cruel and unusual punishment. Our prisons will be seen as backward dungeons that treated men as animals. Dungeons, which only served to turn a person who was down on their luck into a truly unbalanced individual. The success of the Norwegian system speaks for itself. It doesn't generate repeat offenders. Criminals come out of prison as confident and balanced individuals, not feeling as though they lost some chunk of their lives, though they did lose their freedom for that period. Taking away an adult's freedom for a significant fraction of his one and only mortal life is a powerful thing. Can't that be enough? Or do we need vengeance? Do we need to take peoples' lives away from them, as they may have done to us? How does that advantage us, as a society? If you don't believe in an afterlife, and I don't either, isn't it up to us to administer compassion, forgiveness, and a shot at redemption as a show of respect for the singular mortal lives that we all have?

Not when the perpetrator sadistically and indiscriminately murdered over 60 children trying to run away from him in fear. That is something I will not forgive.

#33
Craven

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For me it's not about punishment or justice, nor it is about rehabilitation. You won't bring back dead, you won't erase rape. There's no justice for that. Also rehabilitation is mostly just a joke. For me system should be about protection and removing dangerouns, unfit units from population. I see no point in life sentence, or putting guys in humane, comfy conditions for 30 years. Erase bastards from face of Earth, so that they can't hurt anyone else. Of course this is only for extreme cases (quite common still). I'm not talking about frauds, thefts or minor offenders.
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#34
Roh234

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I highly doubt you can 'rehabilate' a war criminal.

What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty. -Hans Hermann Hoppe


#35
Shimmy

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Well a lot of war criminals will (when not in a position of military authority) just be normal law abiding citizens. So the idea of rehabilitation is pointless. It's like sentencing an 80 year ex nazi prison guard, there's nothing at all rehabilitating about it, it's just punishment to try and make other people think some kind of justice has been done. Personally I think if anyone gets away with a crime for more than 10 years and that in that 10 years since they have been a perfectly law abiding normal citizen, the charges should just be dropped.

#36
truthiness

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The world isn't such a simple place that you can just lock up a "bad guy" forever and be done with it. Well, you can, and it may seem like a moral or just thing to do, but the fact is that there is no such thing as an evil person. There are people that do bad things - no question about it - but there is always some motivation or reason why they did whatever that thing is. Noone is born evil. It's not that simple. Things happen to people that turn them toward violence or other sociopathic behavior. People witness unjust things, and feel justified in acting unjustly out of some warped sense of "fairness". People are born into poverty and see that others are born into wealth and sometimes strike out at the wealthy in order to achieve some sense of balance. Others will find scapegoats - sometimes an entire race of scapegoats to blame their problems on, and will lash out when the opportunity arises. Still others have real chemical imbalances in their brains that blocks out what the rest of us call "empathy". Should a person be locked away forever for a chemical imbalance? People are abused as children, and act out as adults. I have no problem at all with depriving a convicted criminal of his or her freedom for a period of time, but that person should be made able to return to society when their time is served.

It is a simple solution to think that we can lock away our problems - just send them away so we can get on with our lives - but it's not the right thing to do, and we're seeing that it doesn't work. Our prisons are overcrowded because the prisoners are so mistreated that the only way to survive prison life is to become hardened - to join gangs with other criminals. It turns a one-time bank robber or drug pusher into a lifetime offender who will return to prison over and over again. We turn one criminal into several. We multiply our problems. Ex-cons can't find work when released. They may be isolated from society for so long that society no longer makes sense when they are released. They never really have a second chance at life even when their time is served.
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#37
Raklian

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The world isn't such a simple place that you can just lock up a "bad guy" forever and be done with it. Well, you can, and it may seem like a moral or just thing to do, but the fact is that there is no such thing as an evil person. There are people that do bad things - no question about it - but there is always some motivation or reason why they did whatever that thing is. Noone is born evil. It's not that simple. Things happen to people that turn them toward violence or other sociopathic behavior. People witness unjust things, and feel justified in acting unjustly out of some warped sense of "fairness". People are born into poverty and see that others are born into wealth and sometimes strike out at the wealthy in order to achieve some sense of balance. Others will find scapegoats - sometimes an entire race of scapegoats to blame their problems on, and will lash out when the opportunity arises. Still others have real chemical imbalances in their brains that blocks out what the rest of us call "empathy". Should a person be locked away forever for a chemical imbalance? People are abused as children, and act out as adults. I have no problem at all with depriving a convicted criminal of his or her freedom for a period of time, but that person should be made able to return to society when their time is served.


I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy that no man or woman is inherently "evil" but they are in the eyes of the beholder. There is always a reason for their actions which, of course, eventually have them being labeled as evil, criminal, or anti-social, etc. Simply put, the word "evil" is a result of our tendency to categorize or group certain behaviors as a way to make sense of the world or define our inner relationship to that of the world out there. There is no absolute "that" or "that", but the only thing we have is a frame of reference by which we judge everything.

One day, our science will be sophisticated enough to explain the actions of our "criminals" and recommend prudent solutions on an individual basis. I cannot predict exactly how this is going to unfold because my own feeble brain can only handle so much complexity. One thing I know for sure is that today's concept of imprisoning people will be overhauled or reformed, if you will. I am not sure if this process is going to be more humane (a subjective word, I know), but it is going to be different because we will know more about the human brain and its interactions with the outside world than we do today.
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#38
Logically Irrational

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Well a lot of war criminals will (when not in a position of military authority) just be normal law abiding citizens. So the idea of rehabilitation is pointless. It's like sentencing an 80 year ex nazi prison guard, there's nothing at all rehabilitating about it, it's just punishment to try and make other people think some kind of justice has been done. Personally I think if anyone gets away with a crime for more than 10 years and that in that 10 years since they have been a perfectly law abiding normal citizen, the charges should just be dropped.


I could see that happening in a perfect world in which bias doesn't exist, but not our current world. I don't think people are ever going to get past the notion of there being some all-encompasing sense of right in the world that must be upheld at all costs, even if no such thing actually exists. It's just the way that our brains are wired. Life has to be "fair." Of course, I completely understand why people think that way. It's extremely difficult to see the disconect between "this person is bad but currently does not harm society" and "this person is bad for society." It's trying to eradicate intrinsic evil in the world on top of manifested evil. If I was to see a person who had killed someone, who wasn't sorry, and who wasn't in prison, but also didn't show any signs of doing anything further, I would think "this person should be punished for being a bad person," not "this person did bad things but it ultimately doesn't effect me."

What I'm trying to say is that the reason we will always have punishment for things like murder is that humans are closely connected to each other, but in ways that limit us. The average person may have a lot of different friends, but often they are all in such similar situations (usually) that they don't allow room for the actions of other people. They tend to define what a human being is like based off of themselves and the human beings they know. "That person killed someone. I can't imagine doing that myself and I can't imagine my friends doing that. I like me and I like my friends, we're good and we don't kill so that's not how any good person should act."

Basically what I'm rambling on about is that society is never going to accept rehabilitation in its entirety, or what Shimmy suggested, as long as good and bad are applied to people instead of their actions. Probably could have just condensed it down to that.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

#39
Raklian

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[quote/] Basically what I'm rambling on about is that society is never going to accept rehabilitation in its entirety, or what Shimmy suggested, as long as good and bad are applied to people instead of their actions. Probably could have just condensed it down to that. [/quote] I agree. Ubiquitous knowledge is key. Once pretty much everyone (or most) understands the complex machinery in the mind that causes people to do terrible crimes, the public safety system as well as the prosecution side will change their bias and suggest a more benign solution to these crimes than the seemingly barbaric options we have today such as the death penalty and a life-time prison sentence which are very expensive propositions. The only reason I tolerate these punishments because we don't have any other options at this point.
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#40
Zachemc2

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Thanks! I prefer to be different.


This. We're killing people who kill people. The death penalty does seem just, but only for murders.

Edited by Zachemc2, 25 November 2011 - 03:42 AM.





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