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What is wrong with divorcing reality?


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#41
Cosmic Cat

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Game developers make more game than the average professional gamer but not more than the top of the top. They win tons of money, streams, publicity, team sponsorship, tournaments, bets, some pro gamers bet thousands of €/$ with rich fanboys that want a chance to play with theme, they also bet against other pros. You doubt someone will get rich in VR? Haha, there are people already that are rich, not super rich but rich just by selling virtual items in Second Life and you are teeling me no one will be rich with VR? Some pro gamers earn enough to sustain themselves and wife plus their children JUST BY STREAMING. Now imagine someone streaming his field of view to millions of people in 2060 when VR is famous in every country of the world. Sorry if i am being a bit rude but you have no idea.

 

And for you!

 

Calm down, I never said anything provocative. I don't have any idea, neither do you. This is 50 years man, 50 years. I expect VR not to be a video game device, more so a simulation device. You can't really compare the two though. You got simulation games and you got pure simulation (for research). VR can be used by the two. Now, you make three points in that post that I agree with.

 

1. Pro-gamers do get a lot of money from streaming and taking part in competitions. So will VR players.

2. I do imagine there will be people watching VR players like people watch sports players today.

3. People do sell virtual items (which I do think that is stupid)

 

You have put words in my mouth because I never said that any of those points were wrong. I said

 

 

And if the pro VR players were to get rich, I doubt they'd get rich on VR, just really famous. They would have to spend there money on real life items.

 

 

My point was that trading in games is dumb. Especially when you can make your own game with your own items and your own world and your own people. I mean seriously, people who trade virtual items with money are desperate. I have never heard any billionaire who made his fortune out of trading virtual items. When I say virtual, i do not mean 3D models or software or anything like that. I'm talking trading on game items for real money. Like a legendary sword for real life money. It does happen but it's pointless. That is what I was trying to say. I hope you understood the misunderstanding.



#42
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I accidentally double posted. 



#43
José Andrade

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And for you!

 

Calm down, I never said anything provocative. I don't have any idea, neither do you. This is 50 years man, 50 years. I expect VR not to be a video game device, more so a simulation device. You can't really compare the two though. You got simulation games and you got pure simulation (for research). VR can be used by the two. Now, you make three points in that post that I agree with.

 

1. Pro-gamers do get a lot of money from streaming and taking part in competitions. So will VR players.

2. I do imagine there will be people watching VR players like people watch sports players today.

3. People do sell virtual items (which I do think that is stupid)

 

And i didn't provoke you either, i even said "sorry if i am being rude but you have no idea" I didn't meant in the future alone, i meant in the present too, you said that developers make more money than pro players and the core goal of my whole post was to say that  if you think that way you have no idea how much the real pro gamers make already in the present, leave alone in the future where everything virtual will be thousands of times more important to everyone. I don't know what's going to happen in 50 years for sure, of course not, but at least i have a precise idea what's going around in E-Sports now, while you don't. If you tell me to calm down and accuse me of being provocative because of bad reading comprehension then our debates end right here. I don't have a little brother and i finished middle school a good while ago.

 

 

 

 

My point was that trading in games is dumb. Especially when you can make your own game with your own items and your own world and your own people. I mean seriously, people who trade virtual items with money are desperate. I have never heard any billionaire who made his fortune out of trading virtual items. When I say virtual, i do not mean 3D models or software or anything like that. I'm talking trading on game items for real money. Like a legendary sword for real life money. It does happen but it's pointless. That is what I was trying to say. I hope you understood the misunderstanding.

 

It's pointless for you. People can do whatever they want with their real money, instead using for virtual items they can even burn it. Stop saying that what you think is fact.

 

You will NEVER spend real money in virtual goods and you find people who do desperate and stupid, we get it, you said it in almost all your posts in this thread, so don't do it when the time comes and let the ones who want to do it, do it without criticizing.


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#44
Accelerator

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I have to say that i myself am an FIVR enthusiast. I thought about my future and i saw a pass in game programming. Think about it. You will be able to transfer your thoughts into lines of codes directly, so programmers will reach programming speed like never before :) The purpose of mankind is being changed. We are being rendered more and more useless in the physical world (and by pshysical world i mean every kind of manual labour), with the upgrading of machines, while intellectuals are being more and more wanted. However, in the future, AI will take over most scientific research, so only top-notch scientists will have their dream jobs. The only prospect i see is in the gaming industry. There's a reason free time is called "free time". It's the time you use to make yourself happy and content, giving your ordinary, boring work life (some jobs not being as boring),a gray canvas, a stripe of beatiful colors. You said yourself that you can't imagine anything that would surpass VR in the means of entertainment. I'm sure that you played an MMORPG at some point in your life. Maybe you even watched an anime(probably). Didn't you ever think "I would like to be there: to see what it looks like, too see what it feels like. I would like to do what they're doing.". The main reason of VR is making your fantasies come true. Fantasies are the things you wish for;things you imagine while being in the reality you are now. Having your fantasies in the palm of your hand would you really choose a boring reality? On a side note: imagine standing in a practice room working on your sword skills, then sparring with your friends for the same purpose, working hard to become the best of the best, to be able to defeat raid bosses solo(or with a few friends), having special bosses made just for you and other top players to try to beat(i imagine such a FIVRMMORPG would be 50% grinding(levels and stats) and 50% skills).



#45
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And for you!

 

Calm down, I never said anything provocative. I don't have any idea, neither do you. This is 50 years man, 50 years. I expect VR not to be a video game device, more so a simulation device. You can't really compare the two though. You got simulation games and you got pure simulation (for research). VR can be used by the two. Now, you make three points in that post that I agree with.

 

1. Pro-gamers do get a lot of money from streaming and taking part in competitions. So will VR players.

2. I do imagine there will be people watching VR players like people watch sports players today.

3. People do sell virtual items (which I do think that is stupid)

 

And i didn't provoke you either, i even said "sorry if i am being rude but you have no idea" I didn't meant in the future alone, i meant in the present too, you said that developers make more money than pro players and the core goal of my whole post was to say that  if you think that way you have no idea how much the real pro gamers make already in the present, leave alone in the future where everything virtual will be thousands of times more important to everyone. I don't know what's going to happen in 50 years for sure, of course not, but at least i have a precise idea what's going around in E-Sports now, while you don't. If you tell me to calm down and accuse me of being provocative because of bad reading comprehension then our debates end right here. I don't have a little brother and i finished middle school a good while ago.

 

 

 

 

My point was that trading in games is dumb. Especially when you can make your own game with your own items and your own world and your own people. I mean seriously, people who trade virtual items with money are desperate. I have never heard any billionaire who made his fortune out of trading virtual items. When I say virtual, i do not mean 3D models or software or anything like that. I'm talking trading on game items for real money. Like a legendary sword for real life money. It does happen but it's pointless. That is what I was trying to say. I hope you understood the misunderstanding.

 

It's pointless for you. People can do whatever they want with their real money, instead using for virtual items they can even burn it. Stop saying that what you think is fact.

 

You will NEVER spend real money in virtual goods and you find people who do desperate and stupid, we get it, you said it in almost all your posts in this thread, so don't do it when the time comes and let the ones who want to do it, do it without criticizing.

 

Why do you reply every time if I keep repeating what I have said about virtual goods? I found it mockery when you said "sorry if i am being rude but you have no idea"  you could have just said "sorry i'm being rude" and moved on. You are also rude in this post. It's not that I take it personally but it's the ridiculousness of you accusing me of not knowing E-Sports. Next time you accuse me when you have no information to back that up, please keep it to yourself. It's lowering your reputation. You also accuse me of bad reading. I mean, really? did you have to go that low? The argument has ended but you could have ended it more seriously and more smoothly. You didn't have to return the message provocatively again. I may be 14 years old, but I know when to stop. I apologize if I provoked you with my previous message though. Don't take this message personally too. Consider it constructive criticism for your rant.



#46
star0

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I suppose one argument against it is that if you retreat into virtual-reality then you're not helping people -- you are living out some sort of narcissistic fantasy. But that kind of thinking is based in a world where people actually need help. In a few decades I imagine machines will do all manner of drudgery, so that people will no longer need your help; and in such a world this argument against virtual-reality no longer makes sense. Much of the moralizing about laziness and "not doing your job" is based in industrial society thinking. Hunter gatherers worked for themselves, not corporations. See what Douglas Rushkoff has to say in this piece: http://www.cnn.com/2....jobs.obsolete/ There is also the tale of the Island of the Lotus Eaters that some might try to use against VR. The morals in that tale don't really apply, because virtual-reality is not like a drug-induced stupor; VR worlds offer challenge, and a chance to grow; and they need not be solipsistic hells -- people can connect with others in these worlds, and grow together.

#47
José Andrade

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Why do you reply every time if I keep repeating what I have said about virtual goods? I found it mockery when you said "sorry if i am being rude but you have no idea"  you could have just said "sorry i'm being rude" and moved on. You are also rude in this post. It's not that I take it personally but it's the ridiculousness of you accusing me of not knowing E-Sports. Next time you accuse me when you have no information to back that up, please keep it to yourself. It's lowering your reputation. You also accuse me of bad reading. I mean, really? did you have to go that low? The argument has ended but you could have ended it more seriously and more smoothly. You didn't have to return the message provocatively again. I may be 14 years old, but I know when to stop. I apologize if I provoked you with my previous message though. Don't take this message personally too. Consider it constructive criticism for your rant.

 

I reply every time because you are calling people stupid and desperate. Can't you just say you don't like the idea? You need to offend? And before you say it, nop, i never bought virtual items but i am no homosexual either and that doesn't stop me from defending their rights.

 

You said developers make more money than pro gamers and that's not true. You corrected me where i was not wrong. So i said you have no idea. If you feel so offended by that it just proves how childish you are, and no, i am not talking about age. You can be childish at 50 years old.

 

Again, i am being rude it's because you are giving me no choice. If you want to correct me, at least check you facts.

 

I don't have much info to back it up but just the fact that you think developers make more money than pro gamers gives me a hint that you don't know as much as you think.

 

My reputation, do you think i care about reputation? I am not 14yo, seriously, and you call me ridiculous.

 

Go that low? How is that going low if it's true....

 

That's the point of my replies, you are not being constructive, at least not at first. You call people stupid and desperate and then you act all innocent...


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#48
Mashallah

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Jose, sorry to intervene, but as an esport fan I am pretty sure that pro players earn several orders of magnitudes less than the devs. In fact, the vast majority of pro players earns less than someone with an okay job in the first world. Only the best of the best (i.e. those who regularly win international championships like The International of Dota 2, which is really difficult) earn significant money and even they are more famous than rich. This should change in the future, though, as the virtual market grows.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#49
José Andrade

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bzflater, yes, half of even more of the pro gamers make less than the average worker. Completely true.

 

Then the top 40% or something like that, i am just giving random number as an example, make maybe 100k a year.

 

But the top 5%? Sorry but they make more than developers for sure, they earn millions a year. As i said, tournaments, streams, publicity, sponsors, couching other players, bets...if it was only tournaments then of course they would earn less than developers but that's not the case.

 

And i am not even talking about the LoL crazyness and StarCraft in South Korea. A e-sporter in South Korea a few years ago bought a car to every member of his family, like extended family, not only parents and brothers.


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#50
Mashallah

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bzflater, yes, half of even more of the pro gamers make less than the average worker. Completely true.

 

Then the top 40% or something like that, i am just giving random number as an example, make maybe 100k a year.

 

But the top 5%? Sorry but they make more than developers for sure, they earn millions a year. As i said, tournaments, streams, publicity, sponsors, couching other players, bets...if it was only tournaments then of course they would earn less than developers but that's not the case.

 

And i am not even talking about the LoL crazyness and StarCraft in South Korea. A e-sporter in South Korea a few years ago bought a car to every member of his family, like extended family, not only parents and brothers.

 

And that is still dwarfed by what the developers earn.

Valve recently stated that there are 2 million hat transactions on their market every day.

Let's, for a moment, assume that that's their only source of income, while this certainly isn't true. They have something like a 15% tax on the transactions, so if we assume that the average hat costs around one dollar, they earn 300000$ every day for literally doing nothing.

Also, the organizers of any Dota 2 tournament earn far more than the players, because like 75% of the ticket costs go to the organizers.

Besides, I've looked at the "e-sport players who earned the most" data recently, and the top 1 spot earned like 500000$ over his career, which is less than what Valve earns from the Market alone in two days. It was either a Dota 2 or a SC player, I'm not sure, but that's CERTAINLY less than what devs earn.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#51
Mashallah

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http://www.esportsearnings.com/players - here's the earnings data.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#52
José Andrade

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But are you talking about the income of all developers together or the income of one? I am taking of the yearly income of 1 developer vs the yearly income of 1 of the top players.

 

I know that list, i am a big StarCraft fan, but the tournaments are the lowest source of their income. Some players make dozens of time more by streaming than they do in tournaments. And when i listed all their income sources i forgot donations. Some streamers make thousands a day just by streaming and donations.


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#53
Mashallah

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But are you talking about the income of all developers together or the income of one? I am taking of the yearly income of 1 developer vs the yearly income of 1 of the top players.

 

I know that list, i am a big StarCraft fan, but the tournaments are the lowest source of their income. Some players make dozens of time more by streaming than they do in tournaments. And when i listed all their income sources i forgot donations. Some streamers make thousands a day just by streaming and donations.

 

Oh, you are comparing them to the average "codemonkey"? You might be right, then, but comparing the top several percents of the pro players to the bottom of the developers isn't really fair.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#54
José Andrade

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Not just "codemonkeys" all kind of people evolved in the development of the game. You know, everyone but the CEO, president, all those 3 or 4 people that run the company.


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#55
Mashallah

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The average software engineer salary at Valve is 100000$ per year, which is better than at least 80-90% of pro gamers.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#56
José Andrade

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Yeah.


"In this world, a single blade can take you anywhere you want to go. It's a virtual world, but i still feel more alive here than i do in the real one." Kirito - Sword Art Online


#57
Yuli Ban

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Considering what's going on in the world, I wouldn't mind "divorcing" it every now and again


And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.


#58
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... i wanted to see someone try to argue that my points are wrong. i feel so insignificant :'(



#59
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New to the forums and first post. I hope you all don't mind me adding a few thoughts of my own since this a subject of real interest for me these days.

As a 65 year old grandfather in excellent health who lives a comfortable life and with a livable pension that allows me to do whatever I want with my time, I've chosen to spend a significant amount of that time living inside my imagination. I read copious amounts of science fiction and write an equal amount of sci-fi and speculative future short stories and novellas. I'm also a part of the carless community, people who gave up cars in favor of walking, biking and public transportation.

 

I have no trouble envisioning  VR technology as a part of my future as a means of not only replacing reality but supplementing/enhancing reality. For example: the nearest grocery store to my house is about 2 miles away. I walk to there about twice a month for groceries. During the walk I always listen to an audio book (fantasy or sci-fi) to help me escape from the tiresome activity of towing a full load groceries behind me in my carry cart. One of my dreams to have a VR display that will overlay my field of vision with images of the book's world.

 

Another use of VR would be to enhance the visuals of the walking trails I use for exercise. With a visual overlay, I could enhance the colors and contrast of the rather drab scenery or replace with  different flora and fauna. Such enhancements would leave me aware of reality (don't want to get run over by a car) but also take the exercise routine to an entirely new level of enjoyment.

Most of us (assuming too much?) already spend a great deal of time escaping from reality by reading, watching movies, writing, long conversations with a friend or lover, gaming, sleeping, you name it. That's why I envision one of the major uses of near future VR as simply a means to elevate all those currently normal escapist activities to an entirely new level that will both enhance our enjoyment of them but increase our knowledge of new things.

 

One final thought: I want to become a Virtual Reality tourist to places on earth and beyond that I currently cannot travel to. Some imaginative entrepreneur in the next few years is going to create a VR Tourist business where they sell/rent out both the hardware and software that allows shut ins or less wealthy people to be immersed for hours or days at a time into whatever time and place they wish to "travel" to.

 

So, yea, this old guy has great hope for the future of VR and I have no problem seeing it become not so much a liability but more of a asset that will enrich many lives.



#60
IthinkthereforIam(Ithink?)

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First post...(please be kind) :)

 

I suspect that once we are able to generate VR/AR that is equal to, or better than, biological based experience, it will be irresistible!

"Manipulation" of reality has been fundamental in the human experience. The modelling of the exterior and interior world through the use of symbolic language is one of the defining characteristics of the human condition. The power and popularity of the tools and techniques we have developed to enhance this ability (reading, writing, theatre, cinema, radio, television, gaming etc etc etc) suggest to me that the ability to create and enhance realities will be a huge game changer!

Will this be a good thing for society? In many ways yes. The resources required to support rich and fulfilling lives in a virtual universe are orders of magnitude less than the resources required to support (less?) rich and fulfilling lives in "reality".

Of course, a civilisation will need some presence in reality 1 (i.e. this reality) because (among other things) this is where the on/off switch will reside. I envisage a civilisation where the first part of life (say the first hundred years?) is spent doing service in reality 1 (probably augmented reality, with leisure in other realities) and then "retirement" will provide the option of partial or complete immersion in other realities......






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