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Multi-planetary civilization: Mars & Moon but what's next?


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#41
Squillimy

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boi u crazy. heating is easier than cooling because of simple laws of thermodynamics. So heating mars is much easier than cooling venus. I mean, heating up an oven is faster than turning off the heat and waiting for it to cool down.


What becomes of man when the things that man can create are greater than man itself?


#42
Mashallah

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boi u crazy. heating is easier than cooling because of simple laws of thermodynamics. So heating mars is much easier than cooling venus. I mean, heating up an oven is faster than turning off the heat and waiting for it to cool down.

 

To heat something up, you need to add a constant supply of energy to it.

To cool something down, you need to cut off the existing energy source.

I think that the second option is simpler in our case.


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#43
kjaggard

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Thermal mass!

 

If it's too cold you can heat me up with a wire and four batteries with a fan blowing into my suit.

 

If the ground flows with molten lead, no amount of turning off the sun will cool the molten core of the planet in my lifetime to prevent it from being too hot for me to survive.

 

Serious what don't you get about this. There is literally no way an understanding of basic science allows you to conclude that colonizing venus is less laborious than a mars colony. Lol.


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#44
Ru1138

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There was an article that talked about a method of terraforming Venus in a quick fashion (by "quick" meaning <100 years), but it's a lot more difficult than terraforming Mars.

 

Edit: the article is here and the projected timescale is actually around 200 years.    

To heat something up, you need to add a constant supply of energy to it.

Actually, Mars gets plenty of energy in the form of sunlight, we just have to increase the greenhouse effect on Mars. Simple enough, we're doing it on Earth right now. The only way I can see Venus being cooled down effectively and getting a 24 hour day/night cycle is through a planet sized mirror. We just can't build on that scale yet.


What difference does it make?


#45
Mashallah

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Thermal mass!

 

If it's too cold you can heat me up with a wire and four batteries with a fan blowing into my suit.

 

If the ground flows with molten lead, no amount of turning off the sun will cool the molten core of the planet in my lifetime to prevent it from being too hot for me to survive.

 

Serious what don't you get about this. There is literally no way an understanding of basic science allows you to conclude that colonizing venus is less laborious than a mars colony. Lol.

 

The core of Venus isn't too hot. Our own core is molten, so what? By the way, according to the wiki, it's no even yet known for sure if the core of Venus is actually liquid or not. This means that it can easily be colder than ours. The problem is the surface, which is primarily heated up by the sun.

 

There was an article that talked about a method of terraforming Venus in a quick fashion (by "quick" meaning <100 years), but it's a lot more difficult than terraforming Mars.

 

Edit: the article is here and the projected timescale is actually around 200 years.    

To heat something up, you need to add a constant supply of energy to it.

Actually, Mars gets plenty of energy in the form of sunlight, we just have to increase the greenhouse effect on Mars. Simple enough, we're doing it on Earth right now. The only way I can see Venus being cooled down effectively and getting a 24 hour day/night cycle is through a planet sized mirror. We just can't build on that scale yet.

 

Mars receives literally around 2.3 times less light per unit of surface than Earth. It also has almost no atmosphere as of now. Fixing that is a colossal project.

 

But overall I think I should agree with you guys. After some thinking I now also think that terraforming Mars would be probably significantly simpler, but there's still the fact that Venus has far more pleasant gravity. And I still think that because Moon exists there's little point in actually colonizing Mars as it offers nothing useful.


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#46
Ru1138

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Mars receives literally around 2.3 times less light per unit of surface than Earth. It also has almost no atmosphere as of now. Fixing that is a colossal project.

Not as massive as you might think. Build a few thousand perfluorocarbon factories; run them for a while and when the temperature rises by about 20C the latent CO2 in the Martian regolith will be released.


What difference does it make?


#47
Sciencerocks

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China by 2100 might be on the moon and mars. America is finished as a country that moves forward as a great innovator and explorer. Too many idiiots that want to live in the woods.

 

This is just reality of it. Apollo was canceled and it was one of the greatest things humanity ever did.



#48
Squillimy

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boi u crazy. heating is easier than cooling because of simple laws of thermodynamics. So heating mars is much easier than cooling venus. I mean, heating up an oven is faster than turning off the heat and waiting for it to cool down.

 

To heat something up, you need to add a constant supply of energy to it.

To cool something down, you need to cut off the existing energy source.

I think that the second option is simpler in our case.

 

 

Yes perhaps it's easier in theory. Only of course if you don't consider the amount of materials it would take to warm said "something" (asteroid bombardment, greenhouse reactors, etc.) vs. the materials it would take to cool said something (solar shields, or whatever). Also the length of time it'd take to do one or the other. Which, again, takes much longer to cool something down.

 

The median temperature in mars is only -80 degrees F. That's just a chilly day in Antartica with no wind. Compared to the median temperature of Venus being over 850 degrees F. You really believe that cooling a planet 800 degrees is easier & faster than heating one 130 degrees? Considering that there's 2 giant moons next to mars readily available for crashing shall we make the call


What becomes of man when the things that man can create are greater than man itself?


#49
Cody930

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1. And Mars has lower gravity, which is significantly harder to solve than sleeping indoors. Your point?

2. Either clean up spots for bases, or just make GM organisms that will deal with the acid.

3. I gave an example of a simple way to do it earlier: just spray highly reflective aerosols in the atmosphere, that should reflect a large portion of the light. Yes, that's not the most effective way to do it (using solar panels or mirrors would be significantly more convenient), but it's most likely the simplest.

4. Actually the storms would be slower than now as the bright side would receive less energy while the dark side would receive just as much energy. So what if it reflects 70%? It would still be cooler if it reflected, say, 90%. Besides, it doesn't reflect 70% in all of the spectrum, only in some parts of it.

5. 1.2/0.02=60; 67/1.2=55.83(3); I fail to see how that's not a problem. Besides, in the case of Venus, you need to remove gas, while in the case of Mars you need to add gas. I might be wrong, but the latter seems inherently harder to me. And it's not more Earth-like, because surface gravity is still a very significant parameter.

 

1. Suddenly that went from day-night cycle to gravity...didn't exactly tackle my point you just brought up something that I mentioned later.

 

2. That's going to mighty difficult under Venus's conditions.

 

3. Eh I could see this here since talks about reflecting light from Earth are of similar nature. Both ways are still difficult.

 

4. Bright side receives less energy...? The daylight side is always the side that receives the needed energy, doesn't matter what planet you're talking about. Despite a good cloud cover on Earth it only reflects 30% of incoming solar radiation. Dissipating the current cloud cover would expose Venus to even more radiation absorption. Storms would not be slower. The additional heat building up would cause high clouds to form due to the convective nature. It's like the equatorial regions on Earth except on a larger scale north and south. I don't see how the dark side is receiving the same energy, that doesn't make much sense. Higher pressure on the night side would cause air to blow toward the hotter side, any energy there is transferred to the other side otherwise it's leaving via infrared. That's how it cools. Now take that to an extreme example to Venus with extremely slow rotation which is the point some of us have been trying to say about the rotation; it's a fairly big problem to deal with. I know about the spectrum too. The reason I pointed that out is because it reflects so much compared to Earth yet the little radiation it traps essentially is stuck there. Even with that amount of reflectivity, so much heat gets caught due to the slow rotation. 

 

5. Removing the excess CO2 on Earth is a challenge right now compared to dumping it easily like we've done for over the past century. Now try that with Venus's loaded, dense atmosphere. 


"Since we first emerged, a few million years ago in East Africa, we have meandered our way around the planet. There are now people on every continent and the remotest islands, from pole to pole, from Mount Everest to the Dead Sea, on the ocean bottoms and even, occasionally, in residence 200 miles up - humans, like the gods of old, living in the sky."


#50
Mashallah

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1. Suddenly that went from day-night cycle to gravity...didn't exactly tackle my point you just brought up something that I mentioned later.

 

2. That's going to mighty difficult under Venus's conditions.

 

3. Eh I could see this here since talks about reflecting light from Earth are of similar nature. Both ways are still difficult.

 

4. [color=#ff0000;]Bright side receives less energy...? [/color]The daylight side is always the side that receives the needed energy, doesn't matter what planet you're talking about. Despite a good cloud cover on Earth it only reflects 30% of incoming solar radiation. Dissipating the current cloud cover would expose Venus to even more radiation absorption. Storms would not be slower. The additional heat building up would cause high clouds to form due to the convective nature. It's like the equatorial regions on Earth except on a larger scale north and south. I don't see how the dark side is receiving the same energy, that doesn't make much sense. Higher pressure on the night side would cause air to blow toward the hotter side, any energy there is transferred to the other side otherwise it's leaving via infrared. That's how it cools. Now take that to an extreme example to Venus with extremely slow rotation which is the point some of us have been trying to say about the rotation; it's a fairly big problem to deal with. I know about the spectrum too. The reason I pointed that out is because it reflects so much compared to Earth yet the little radiation it traps essentially is stuck there. Even with that amount of reflectivity, so much heat gets caught due to the slow rotation. 

 

5. Removing the excess CO2 on Earth is a challenge right now compared to dumping it easily like we've done for over the past century. Now try that with Venus's loaded, dense atmosphere. 

 

 

You misunderstood me. Less than now, not less than the dark side. And the dark side would be receiving about the same amount of energy as now (albeit slightly less), but not the same as the bright side.

Besides, I already agreed that terraforming Mars is probably actually simpler - see above.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#51
Cody930

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You misunderstood me. Less than now, not less than the dark side. And the dark side would be receiving about the same amount of energy as now (albeit slightly less), but not the same as the bright side.

Besides, I already agreed that terraforming Mars is probably actually simpler - see above.

 

Alright the way you worded that though was a bit off so it sounded like now sorry. Fair deal. 


"Since we first emerged, a few million years ago in East Africa, we have meandered our way around the planet. There are now people on every continent and the remotest islands, from pole to pole, from Mount Everest to the Dead Sea, on the ocean bottoms and even, occasionally, in residence 200 miles up - humans, like the gods of old, living in the sky."


#52
Avatar1991

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Hi everybody (It's my first post) :)

 

I think everybody agrees that the first non-Earth planet which humans will have a chance to colonize will be Mars. But what planet/place will be colonized next (and when)? Venus is a very hostile place but maybe we'll be able to establish some kind of "cloud cities" on it? Or maybe the next place will be some of Jupiter's/Saturn's moons?

Hi! I think after Mars we will colonize Europa, Jupiter's moon but I don't Know when it will happen, maybe in the next century.



#53
StanleyAlexander

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Hi everybody (It's my first post) :)

 

I think everybody agrees that the first non-Earth planet which humans will have a chance to colonize will be Mars. But what planet/place will be colonized next (and when)? Venus is a very hostile place but maybe we'll be able to establish some kind of "cloud cities" on it? Or maybe the next place will be some of Jupiter's/Saturn's moons?

Hi! I think after Mars we will colonize Europa, Jupiter's moon but I don't Know when it will happen, maybe in the next century.

 

We will definitely look to establish scientific research stations on Europa, but I think that for colonization of the Jovian system, we'll first look to Callisto and Ganymede -- the former because it's far enough away from Jupiter that it receives significantly less radiation, the latter because it actually has a magnetosphere, with which we could maybe leverage some protection from that same radiation.

 

There's a cool bit in Blue Mars about the fledgling colonies on the rims of Valhalla, the largest impact crater in the solar system.  Would make a pretty cool view :)


Humanity's destiny is infinity

#54
OrbitalResonance

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China by 2100 might be on the moon and mars. America is finished as a country that moves forward as a great innovator and explorer. Too many idiiots that want to live in the woods.

 

This is just reality of it. Apollo was canceled and it was one of the greatest things humanity ever did.

 

This is incorrect.

 

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#55
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#56
AngelXZYW

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Perhaps we will terraform venus...



#57
StanleyAlexander

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Perhaps we will terraform venus...

It will be difficult... it's the hottest place in the solar system (apart from the sun & interiors of planets), its atmosphere is almost a hundred times thicker than Earth's (and consists largely of CO2), and its day is longer than its year.

 

In general, there are more resources and less radiation if we colonize up-system, rather than down-.  Let's go for the asteroids & Jovian system after Mars, and leave Venus for when we have ultra-powerful and intelligent space infrastructure that can do the job with exponentially greater accuracy and efficiency.


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#58
OrbitalResonance

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The resources gained from going outwards will increase our wealth to where modifying inner system will be affordable. tHe biggest issue with venus is its rotation. We would need to find out how to spin it up. Lots of energy, how do we apply it?


We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#59
AngelXZYW

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The resources gained from going outwards will increase our wealth to where modifying inner system will be affordable. tHe biggest issue with venus is its rotation. We would need to find out how to spin it up. Lots of energy, how do we apply it?

How about do an asteroid impact to venus in a position and exact impact area?



#60
Avatar1991

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I want to walk on Europa   :)

Europa is so fascinating.

Look at 0:33: Jupiter at the horizon is so beautiful.

 

 

 

 

 

If I made some mistakes in the grammar I'm sorry, my English is not perfect, I'm working on it  :)






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