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Future of Crimea


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#21
MarcZ

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I didn't make the comment about Ukraine putting its house in order. I don't think it will. The GDP per capita readings are very much at odds between the World Bank and the IMF and CIA. According to the IMF and CIA Estonians on average have about $4,000 more according to GDP per capita than Russia. I would be interested in seeing what methodologies are used when measuring this statistic between the World Bank and the IMF. Also Russia has a higher GINI coefficient than any of the Baltic States meaning its wealth is far less equally distributed with more of it accumulating among the rich, which effectively also makes the average Russian poorer. 

 

Now, as a side comment the U.S. has a higher GINI than Russia, however the U.S. has a higher GDP per capita which means effectively the Americans are also still richer...

 

I also made no comment about Russia being a "third world country"... I said it was corrupt, but if you want to argue with me about that please feel free.

 

See:

 

https://en.wikipedia...PPP)_per_capita

https://en.wikipedia...income_equality



#22
Bradley

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...so, a few words about who is rich and who is poor. The more that i just found a new interesting toy called "google public data". First about Ukraine. Regadrles of future regime (democratic, quasi-democratic, nationalist, neo-nazi, hybrid of them all) Ukraine have no a slightest chance to catch up Russia in the foreseeable future. 

 

In terms of the future of economics, politics and culture, I don't see a bright future for Russia. No one wants to live in a country where they are told what to do and how to think. Most people can't afford to pick up and leave a country. But the Russian liberal educated elite are mobile. And Putin crushed their dissent regarding Crimea. Thus, a portion of the liberal minded in Russia will choose to leave and reside in countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent.

 

Technology has allowed city shopping for quite a while now. The spread of high speed internet is permitting certain segments to start nation shopping. Countries like the United States really are threatening Russia, but not in a way that you would expect. In the case of the United States, the threat comes from programs like the H-1B immigration visa. It allows American employers to temporarily immigrate foreign nationals for specialized occupations. Thus, it has been dubbed the 'genius visa'.

 

Certain headhunting firms specialize in procuring H-1Bs for US companies. They literally suck brain power from foreign nations. At present, Putin is giving Russian intellectuals every reason to leave Russia and move to western countries. In the future, intellect will drift toward politically liberal countries. And GDP will follow. 



#23
KomissarBojantchev

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...so, a few words about who is rich and who is poor. The more that i just found a new interesting toy called "google public data". First about Ukraine. Regadrles of future regime (democratic, quasi-democratic, nationalist, neo-nazi, hybrid of them all) Ukraine have no a slightest chance to catch up Russia in the foreseeable future. 

 

In terms of the future of economics, politics and culture, I don't see a bright future for Russia. No one wants to live in a country where they are told what to do and how to think. Most people can't afford to pick up and leave a country. But the Russian liberal educated elite are mobile. And Putin crushed their dissent regarding Crimea. Thus, a portion of the liberal minded in Russia will choose to leave and reside in countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent.

 

 

LOL when I was in  russia in 2010 everybody talked what they wanted and nobody cared. Pretty far flung what CNN babbles. See an anti-crimea protest here:nobody cares anout it and are little more than 3000 of them everytime the protests take place.https://www.youtube...._On_-gI5LqNoVzA

"educated liberal elite" Double LOL. These people are anything but elite and educated. They just bark slanders about the russian political interests while being on american payroll. And as for their popularity, they never only get single digit ratings. Oppressed majority my ass...

"countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent" The way I see how OWS, Blockuppy frankfurt, bradley manning are being treated your description wouldn't be very accurate.

Thus, a portion of the liberal minded in Russia will choose to leave and reside in countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent.

 

That would be a good riddance of such useless lie spreading people.



#24
Mashallah

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LOL when I was in  russia in 2010 everybody talked what they wanted and nobody cared. Pretty far flung what CNN babbles. See an anti-crimea protest here:nobody cares anout it and are little more than 3000 of them everytime the protests take place.https://www.youtube...._On_-gI5LqNoVzA

 

"educated liberal elite" Double LOL. These people are anything but elite and educated. They just bark slanders about the russian political interests while being on american payroll. And as for their popularity, they [color=#ff0000;]ever [/color]only get single digit ratings. Oppressed majority my ass...

"countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent" The way I see how OWS, Blockuppy frankfurt, bradley manning are being treated your description wouldn't be very accurate.

Thus, a portion of the liberal minded in Russia will choose to leave and reside in countries that offer freedom of expression and dissent.

 

That would be a good riddance of such useless lie spreading people.

 

 

Fixed that for you.


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Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#25
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I feel like putin is going to use Crimea as a vacation home.

 

Posted Image



#26
TheComrade

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Russia has a higher GINI coefficient than any of the Baltic States meaning its wealth is far less equally distributed...

 

I also made no comment about Russia being a "third world country"... I said it was corrupt, but if you want to argue...

 

First, about corruption. No, i don't want to argue, Russia is indeed terribly corrupt. I tested this on my own skin. Unfortunately it's very difficult (nearly impossible) to measure the real level of corruption year by year...

 

As for Russian GINI, there is a picture:

 

Posted Image

 

As you can see this GINI stays roughly the same since 1993 while GDP per capita rapidly increased. So that not only the oligarchs, but the majority of Russians really getting richer. Again, tested on my father's skin. Back in ealy 1990-s, the average salary of average worker was about 200-300 usd, today it's about 800-1000 usd (varies depending of region).

 

As for this:

 

In terms of the future of economics, politics and culture, I don't see a bright future for Russia. No one wants to live in a country where they are told what to do and how to think. Most people can't afford to pick up and leave a country. But the Russian liberal educated elite...

 

Nothing personal, but this absurd statement simply has nothing to do with reality. Maybe it was true in 1990-s, but today... you can trust me or not, but most of people here are fiercely patriotic and will not emigrate, if even you'll give them this opportunity. Btw, according to polls, all social classes (from homeless alcoholics up to State Duma deputees) showing roughly the same level of nationalism. About 90% of polulation (incl. me) supports annexation of Crimea. So:

 

At present, Putin is giving Russian intellectuals every reason to leave Russia and move to western countries...

 

On the contrary, thanks to Putin, people finally feels pride of their country. If even this is nothing but illusion, it's still a very powerful feeling. Those "liberal pro-western intellectuals" you're talking about, are marginal minority here. Most of those "intellectuals" are in fact rotten local bohemia, something in Pussy Riot style. Maybe they're the heroes of western media, but here in Russia they are despised and treated as "fifth column" by majority of people. I'm not saying is it good or bad, but such is the reality.

 

Anyway, this thread is about Crimea, not about future of Russia.



#27
Bradley

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At present, Putin is giving Russian intellectuals every reason to leave Russia and move to western countries...

 

On the contrary, thanks to Putin, people finally feels pride of their country. If even this is nothing but illusion, it's still a very powerful feeling. Those "liberal pro-western intellectuals" you're talking about, are marginal minority here. Most of those "intellectuals" are in fact rotten local bohemia, something in Pussy Riot style. Maybe they're the heroes of western media, but here in Russia they are despised and treated as "fifth column" by majority of people. I'm not saying is it good or bad, but such is the reality.

 

Anyway, this thread is about Crimea, not about future of Russia.

 

 

The future is about country shopping. Intellectuals want to live in countries that allow Pussy Riot the freedom to be local rotten blasphemous bohemians. Nationalism (national pride) counts for exactly nothing in terms of attracting intellectuals. You'll never see advertising leverage national pride to sell products to scientists and engineers. 



#28
Futurist

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At present, Putin is giving Russian intellectuals every reason to leave Russia and move to western countries...

 

On the contrary, thanks to Putin, people finally feels pride of their country. If even this is nothing but illusion, it's still a very powerful feeling. Those "liberal pro-western intellectuals" you're talking about, are marginal minority here. Most of those "intellectuals" are in fact rotten local bohemia, something in Pussy Riot style. Maybe they're the heroes of western media, but here in Russia they are despised and treated as "fifth column" by majority of people. I'm not saying is it good or bad, but such is the reality.

 

Anyway, this thread is about Crimea, not about future of Russia.

 

 

The future is about country shopping. Intellectuals want to live in countries that allow Pussy Riot the freedom to be local rotten blasphemous bohemians. Nationalism (national pride) counts for exactly nothing in terms of attracting intellectuals. You'll never see advertising leverage national pride to sell products to scientists and engineers. 

Out of curiosity--which anti-science and anti-engineering policies exactly has Putin implemented?



#29
Mashallah

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The future is about country shopping. Intellectuals want to live in countries that allow Pussy Riot the freedom to be local rotten blasphemous bohemians. Nationalism (national pride) counts for exactly nothing in terms of attracting intellectuals. You'll never see advertising leverage national pride to sell products to scientists and engineers. 

 

 

I am sorry to disappoint you, but as someone who significantly communicates with the academic circles, I can assure you that a lot of scientists are currently also patriotic and nationalistic. There are some anti-patriots, but they are the minority and don't plan to migrate anyway.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#30
Bradley

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Out of curiosity--which anti-science and anti-engineering policies exactly has Putin implemented?

 

 

Did you do that on purpose or accident? 



#31
TheComrade

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Intellectuals want to live in countries that allow Pussy Riot the freedom to be local rotten blasphemous bohemians. Nationalism (national pride) counts for exactly nothing in terms of attracting intellectuals. 

 

This is so wrong that I don't even know where to start... as driving and inspirational force, national pride is 1000 times more important than any dances of Pussy Riot. At least in this country. You have no idea what you talking about. Russia is not just a poor and undeveloped version of USA, there are huge cultural differences. I personally know some of those intellectuals and nobody of them going to emigrate. For example, one of them (my former best school friend) works as aircraft designer... Seriously, let's just stop it.



#32
MarcZ

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Russia has a higher GINI coefficient than any of the Baltic States meaning its wealth is far less equally distributed...

 

I also made no comment about Russia being a "third world country"... I said it was corrupt, but if you want to argue...

 

First, about corruption. No, i don't want to argue, Russia is indeed terribly corrupt. I tested this on my own skin. Unfortunately it's very difficult (nearly impossible) to measure the real level of corruption year by year...

 

As for Russian GINI, there is a picture:

 

Posted Image

 

As you can see this GINI stays roughly the same since 1993 while GDP per capita rapidly increased. So that not only the oligarchs, but the majority of Russians really getting richer. Again, tested on my father's skin. Back in ealy 1990-s, the average salary of average worker was about 200-300 usd, today it's about 800-1000 usd (varies depending of region).

 

 

 

However, Estonian wages from what I understand are actually growing faster. That is all I'm saying. We can make all sorts of arguments about GDP and what not but in the end it is the micro level situation which will most determine people's perception of wealth. I've never considered Russia a third world country. It most certainly could be a first world country if the corruption issue was solved it has the resources and technological capability to be one... it is a high second world (developing country), just for comparison Canada which has 33 million people has a GDP of about 1.8 trillion and Russia has a population of 120 million and a GDP of about 2 trillion. There definitely are some issues going on in Russia when a population that has only 1/4th the population has a very similar GDP.



#33
Futurist

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Russia has a population of 120 million

Actually, it is about 143.5 million without Crimea and about 146 million with Crimea.



#34
Mashallah

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Russia has a population of 120 million

Actually, it is about 143.5 million without Crimea and about 146 million with Crimea.

 

 

And a PPP GDP of 3.4 billion according to World Bank or 2.5 billion according to IMF.

 

Still bad in per capita terms, but we lost over 40 years to collapses out of the last 100 years:

1. USSR in 1930 was slightly economically worse off than the Russian Empire in 1910 because of the civil war and economic restructurisation.

2. Russia in 2013 was more or less economically on the level of RSFSR in 1990, worse in some areas and better in others, because of an economic restructurisation.

 

Those two facts explain the current economic problems of Russia, which would probably be significantly better off without the Bolshevik civil war. The perfect scenario for us would be to either switch from monarchy in a relatively short and a painless revolution instead of a 5-year-long civil war or to stay with a monarchy, but hope for good leaders and for a switch to a British-style constitutional monarchy as soon as possible.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#35
Bradley

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Russia would be better off accepting the transition to a Type 1 Kardashev scale civilization. Of course, from the comments in this thread I see how that transition might be culturally difficult for Russia. 



#36
Bradley

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We have different values than in the West. People don't want homosexuals to have rights, and, many things that people in the west want, are not wanted by the vast majority of people here. 

 

This is an example of why the transition to a Type 1 civilization will be difficult for many. Some people insist on discriminating against others for the most trivial reasons. It is also a good example of why Russia needs Pussy Riot. Artists always lead the way in raising awareness. 



#37
Mashallah

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We have different values than in the West. People don't want homosexuals to have rights, and, many things that people in the west want, are not wanted by the vast majority of people here. 

 

This is an example of why the transition to a Type 1 civilization will be difficult for many. Some people insist on discriminating against others for the most trivial reasons. It is also a good example of why Russia needs Pussy Riot. Artists always lead the way in raising awareness. 

 

How is this related to being a Type 1 civilisation in any way or form whatsoever? I think that you're using that term without even knowing its meaning.


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#38
Bradley

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We have different values than in the West. People don't want homosexuals to have rights, and, many things that people in the west want, are not wanted by the vast majority of people here. 

 

This is an example of why the transition to a Type 1 civilization will be difficult for many. Some people insist on discriminating against others for the most trivial reasons. It is also a good example of why Russia needs Pussy Riot. Artists always lead the way in raising awareness. 

 

How is this related to being a Type 1 civilisation in any way or form whatsoever? I think that you're using that term without even knowing its meaning.

 

 

Type 1 civilizations are global in every respect. Thus, discrimination results in isolation. 



#39
Mashallah

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We have different values than in the West. People don't want homosexuals to have rights, and, many things that people in the west want, are not wanted by the vast majority of people here. 

 

This is an example of why the transition to a Type 1 civilization will be difficult for many. Some people insist on discriminating against others for the most trivial reasons. It is also a good example of why Russia needs Pussy Riot. Artists always lead the way in raising awareness. 

 

How is this related to being a Type 1 civilisation in any way or form whatsoever? I think that you're using that term without even knowing its meaning.

 

 

Type 1 civilizations are global in every respect. Thus, discrimination results in isolation. 

 

 

Wrong. Even North Korea could be a Type 1 civilisation if it met a single criterion. 


I don't like being lied to, but I'm also tired of The Truth.

Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor.


#40
Bradley

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Wrong. Even North Korea could be a Type 1 civilisation if it met a single criterion. 

 

 

Why are you applying the Kardashev scale to an individual country? 






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