Jump to content

Welcome to FutureTimeline.forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Perpetual Motion Machines: A conspiracy of Denial!

perpetual Motion physics conspiracy

  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#41
Flatfingers

Flatfingers

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
I'm not a theoretical physicist, but I can take a stab at this one on logical grounds. There's always some risk in asserting that something "can't" happen. However, I'm inclined to think that perpetual motion -- that is, violating the First Law of Thermodynamics -- is unlikely in any universe. Consider entropy. There are only three possibilities for all work-producing closed systems: entropy is positive (as in our universe), it's negative (in a universe where perpetual motion is possible), or it's steady-state (which would violate the Second Law but not the First, implying perfect conversion of energy from one form to another but no gain). In the case of positive entropy as in our universe, every case of work within a closed system loses some energy as waste heat that can't be used for any work. ("Work" could be anything from burning petrochemicals to the rotation of planets.) Over billions of years, this conversion process means that ultimately everything -- all matter -- will assume the form of heat energy at four degrees Absolute, meaning that no further work will ever be possible. This conclusion makes sense as a universal effect because it has a definate endpoint. Now consider the case of a universe in which perpetual motion is possible. In this universe, it would be possible within some closed systems to get more usable energy out of the system than exists within it. What would be the result of the accumulation of these processes over many billions of years? As systems gain more and more energy, where our universe will eventually go cold and dark a perpetual motion universe would become increasingly hot and bright... but what is the upper limit on that? Imagine an entire universe in which every single cubic nanometer is filled with increasingly active energy because the physical laws of that universe allow "extra" energy to come from nowhere. Is such a never-ending increase possible in any universe under any physical organization? Maybe it is, and I'm just too bounded by the simple, easily understood form of our own universe's extinction to be able to accept a more complex alternative. That said, a runaway universe seems much less likely than a run-down universe. Finally, there's the question of "extra energy from nowhere." Energy *can't* come from nowhere; it must come from somewhere... but where? If it comes from some other universe, what's to prevent the application of the Third Law to consider both the target and source universes together to be "the system," so that at least the Second Law (and probably the First as well) remains unviolated? Perpetual motion is always going to seem attractive. It's just one of those things. But ultimately it is magic.

#42
Craven

Craven

    Elephant in the forest

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,325 posts
  • LocationPoland, Cracow

I don't understand why people feel it's OK to be so rude about this stuff. How are people supposed to learn if they get verbally assaulted every time they ask a question?


Check first page of this topic. Apart from Unrequited Lust, who already shown lack of good parenting, others didn't assaulted him. Most just stated that it's simply impossible, Wjfox redirected jjf3 to Michio Kaku's book, Roh even explained it in terms of thermodynamics. I can understand that people can get nervous once jjf3 goes on and on with his fantasies even when provided with physical explanation.
"I walk alone and do no evil, having only a few wishes, just like an elephant in the forest."

"Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and you weep alone."

#43
TreeHandThing

TreeHandThing

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 252 posts
jjf3: You are a complete idiot.

#44
Caiman

Caiman

    Funky Duck

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 952 posts
  • LocationManchester, England

jjf3: You are a complete idiot.

Enough is enough with this, guys. If you don’t like what someone has to say, criticise it constructively. If all you’re going to do is post nothing more than a direct, personal attack, don’t bother because in future it’s just going to get removed.

~Jon


#45
jjf3

jjf3

    Not a Member of the Tea Party! Just a Concerned Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,046 posts
  • LocationHolmdel NJ/Tampa Fl

jjf3: You are a complete idiot.


I'm sorry for dreaming?
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#46
ShallowLeaf

ShallowLeaf

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • LocationTampa, Fl
I agree with Caiman and Flatfingers. It's not as if jjf3 created the topic and said, "I believe that perpetual motion machines exist, and that all of y'all who say otherwise can go suck it! I am right!!!!!" No. He did not. Another thing that surprised me is how smart some of the other people who bashed him seem to be. I could not believe that people as intelligent as they are, could not even begin to consider the concept of replying calmly, like an adult, and instead, acted like children. Personally, I am rather disappointed with some of the members of this forum, and how hell-bent they seem to be on destroying any semblance of a creative academic environment.
I sail on the currents of my dreams; my imagination the vessel I command.
http://shallowleaf-w...e.blogspot.com/





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: perpetual, Motion, physics, conspiracy

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users