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2012 US Presidential Election


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#41
mic of orion

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Exactly, gravity is technically a theory. But like evolution, it's been tested so many times it's just regarded as a fact. Especially because people have seen it happen. We have seen animals evolve since the theory of evolution was introduced, and we have also seen gravity through space exploration and just walking around. It just so happens that the church is extremely slow at accepting ideas, it didn't accept that the earth went around the sun until the 1990's for example.


"gravity isn't technically a theory", sorry to bust your chops, it is a theory, reason why it is still a theory it is because we know too little about other aspects of theoretical physics to make any assumptions as to why things are as they are. There are few facts about gravity that we know and these facts are Newtonian principles, but overall we are still in cosmic darkness as to much of physics, we have theories and we are trying to figure things out, but it is quite complex set of problems that might take centuries if not millennia to solve.

You might know this conundrum under different name; quantum physics, string theory and theory of everything is what we are trying to solve.
It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

#42
jjf3

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Let me correct you here on few points.

I didn't say entire republican party is a right wing loony bin collection of racist bigots, i've said only far right element, the teabaggers and right wing ex-kkk members.
Overall Republican party has some decent politicians and individuals who represent moderate view point that brings me to number 2.

2, Teabaggers aren't small fringe part of the republican movement, they represent one fifth of republican electorate, many of whom hate minorities, non-whites and believe nonsense such as that Earth is 6000 years old and that there are talking snakes.

A large segment of Republican party is also of similar opinion, many use religion to base their political campaigns on, somehow that makes them more honest and electable.

As to your comments regarding Obama and that evil women I can't bare to think or write her name, first off. Obama is not a radical, racist, bigoted, uneducated, stupid, self absorbed cu*t unlike someone else we know, his policies aren't radical or comprehensive, all he has done was to instigate health care reforms that were way overdue and give 50 million un-insured Americans access to medical insurance without being bankrupted in a process.

Reforms he initiated didn't go far enough to give all Americans access to free medical help/coverage as it is the case across the EU and all major industrialized nations, reason why so many liberals hate Obama, and the fact that is he compromises too much with the rebs.

Also, you can't blame Obama for economic wows America is in, you must blame Bush and his administration for it was Bush who ruined and destroyed American economy and any self-respect America had.

Now I really couldn't give a toss who you going to vote for, be it republican mainstream candidate or teabagger candidate at the next elections, but do read on what is happening around you before you start to point fingers, Rebs are good at it, yet they are the ones who caused all this mess, they are the ones who sold out America and made is a literally bankrupt. What Obama has inherited is a ruin with 14 trillion dollar debt and budget deficit that would scare Greek finance minister.

Now if you think this mess can be sorted in 4 years time you are deluding yourself, Rebs ruined America, it would take 2-3 generations of Americans to pay back/repair what Rebs/Bush did in 8 years of his rule.


First of all, have you ever talked to a tea party member? I know many tea party people through my parents and many are not how you describe them. IDK where you have been living for your lifetime, but America is a nation formed under religious beliefs and ideals no matter which way you spin how evil religion is. Billion of people believe in religion. The reason we have moral rights in our constitution and God in our pledge of allegiance. I agree with you, I don't care for it, but it is reality.

Obama's policies are not radical??? What was that slogan that he used to run for President? Change!!!! But he forgot to mention what type of change he was talking about! Besides I was not talking about Obama's policies, i was talking about his beliefs. It has been ruled illegal to force people to buy into a national healthcare plan. People have the right to choose if they want government run health care.

Look who's pointing fingers now, republicans did not cause the economic recession. Bush did not cause the recession. Bush probably doesn't know enough about economics to cause a recession. It was a combined effort between both parties and the banks. The reason for the recession was greedy wall street people with $100 million+ Salaries who think that the US economy is their playground and magic show! And while Bush added significantly to our debt, I don't see Obama doing anything different than he was where the economy is concerned. Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt. All of this is discussed behind closed doors through the major banks and corporations and it doesn't matter who is president. I never blamed Obama for the debt he just added onto it like everyone else has. The founding fathers were actually against creating a worthless paper money system and central banks which started all this mess.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#43
OrbitalResonance

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Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt.


Be sure to research before you make a statement like this in an argument before it bites you.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#44
jjf3

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Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt.


Be sure to research before you make a statement like this in an argument before it bites you.


Ok it was 1930s my bad...

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#45
Rook

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ExplorerAtHeart pointed it out best. Evolution is in fact a theory but that's mostly the nature of science. We call things theories even when we have a great deal of evidence to support it, because we acknowledge that tomorrow someone might make a discovery that goes against it. Right now though, there is a great deal of evidence supporting evolution, while most of the time the "evidence" for creationists is simply saying "but we don't know how x, y and z happened". Not knowing something isn't evidence of (an) intelligent being(s). It just means "we don't know yet".

By the way we do have a reasonable guess of how random molecules came together to form unicellular organisms, and how they became complex multicellular ones. Randomness. Hundreds of millions of years of atoms smashing together until they formed molecules. For example, some atoms stuck together due to their electrons lining up in just the right way so their mutual attraction sticks. The same thing happened with molecules. They floated around until some formed together to make structures that became part of cells, including strands of simple DNA. So smaller objects interact with each other due to their physical/mechanical characteristics forming certain times of behavior. When that behavior proves to allow it to "survive" (i.e., not break apart and "die") they keep on existing in the world. Structures that developed together to make the mechanism of reproduction had a great chance of continued existence, and so those lived on, at some point becoming things we called cells. Repeat the process again with more complex structures (cells) and mechanisms (cell functions such as mitosis, consuming other cells, etc) and those cells that happened to work together in ways that were mutually beneficial became multicellular.

As I understand it, that's the working theory and it seems to coincide with evidence in other fields (e.g., physics) of the age of the universe. So for now it's what sounds the most convincing.

Bringing the topic back to Bachmann...

http://www.bostonher..._both_clueless/

Yes the media seems to go harder on Palin and Bachmann with their mistakes... but a lot of them just can't be attributed to simply misspeaking. I can understand ACCIDENTALLY saying Paul Revere warned the British. I'm giving Palin the benefit of the doubt and hoping that as soon as someone mentioned something she corrected herself (maybe). But Bachmann's claim that the founding fathers freed the slaves? The Lion King was a brainwashing promoter of homosexuality? What????

Not to mention so many things I've read about her saying (about present day policies and what's happening, not just history) are just flat out wrong. I have no problem with voting for a woman as president. But really, none in the Republican party have stepped up that really instill confidence in me (at all...).
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#46
jjf3

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But really, none in the Republican party have stepped up that really instill confidence in me (at all...).


As one of the most open minded people of the last generation Jacque Fresco once said, "People are not elected to political office to change things. They're put there to keep things the way they are."

And this is the reason why I hesitate to vote in any election. Why vote for a system, that is probably more corrupt than anyone can possibly imagine?
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#47
Rook

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As one of the most open minded people of the last generation Jacque Fresco once said, "People are not elected to political office to change things. They're put there to keep things the way they are."

And this is the reason why I hesitate to vote in any election. Why vote for a system, that is probably more corrupt than anyone can possibly imagine?


Because the alternative is someone being elected whose policies diverges even further from what you believe in?

Side note: I just realized this thread actually had 3 pages... hah! My post might be totally irrelevant now :p

#48
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As one of the most open minded people of the last generation Jacque Fresco once said, "People are not elected to political office to change things. They're put there to keep things the way they are."

And this is the reason why I hesitate to vote in any election. Why vote for a system, that is probably more corrupt than anyone can possibly imagine?


Because the alternative is someone being elected whose policies diverges even further from what you believe in?

Side note: I just realized this thread actually had 3 pages... hah! My post might be totally irrelevant now :p


Yeah probably. This post was talking about how corrupt the entire system is in general, and how both parties can never truly enact real change.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#49
Caiman

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Evolution is in fact a theory

Of course, but it's absolutely important to make a distinction between the semantics of the word theory in this context (scientific theory), because as has happened in this very thread that word is seized upon as some sort of implication that the explanation is untrue or equal in value to any crackpot (non-scientific) theory out there. Evidently, a large number of people do not understand the distinction- what we would call a 'theory' in other fields is in science just a hypothesis, it is only when the evidence stacks up to verify a hypothesis that it is upgraded to a theory. Also, it is wrong to say that 'a theory becomes a law' as was asserted earlier in this thread. No it does not. Theories are supported by laws i.e. the theory of gravity is an explanation, it is distinct from the laws/rules which gravity appears to abide by. For 150 years the theory of evolution is yet to be falsified and no alternative even comes close to offering a viable explanation for the diversity of life on earth. It is by all measures a fact (until someone proves otherwise ;)).

Anyway, in an effort to also stay on topic, I expect Barack Obama will achieve a second term so the only thing to worry about here is whether this woman wins the primaries and is actually considered a credible leader of the United States by fifty million Republican voters or not- because that would be worrying.

~Jon


#50
jjf3

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Evolution is in fact a theory

Of course, but it's absolutely important to make a distinction between the semantics of the word theory in this context (scientific theory), because as has happened in this very thread that word is seized upon as some sort of implication that the explanation is untrue or equal in value to any crackpot (non-scientific) theory out there. Evidently, a large number of people do not understand the distinction- what we would call a 'theory' in other fields is in science just a hypothesis, it is only when the evidence stacks up to verify a hypothesis that it is upgraded to a theory. Also, it is wrong to say that 'a theory becomes a law' as was asserted earlier in this thread. No it does not. Theories are supported by laws i.e. the theory of gravity is an explanation, it is distinct from the laws/rules which gravity appears to abide by. For 150 years the theory of evolution is yet to be falsified and no alternative even comes close to offering a viable explanation for the diversity of life on earth. It is by all measures a fact (until someone proves otherwise ;)).

Anyway, in an effort to also stay on topic, I expect Barack Obama will achieve a second term so the only thing to worry about here is whether this woman wins the primaries and is actually considered a credible leader of the United States by fifty million Republican voters or not- because that would be worrying.


Exactly, it's the best we've got but that doesn't make it perfect.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#51
Rook

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Gotcha, I see where you're coming from now Caiman. Point conceded. :D

#52
Caiman

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Exactly, it's the best we've got but that doesn't make it perfect.

Indeed, just like our theories for gravity which don't reconcile whatsoever between the quantum and macro scale. Why no vitriol against the theory of gravity? But seriously, the theory of evolution may not be perfect, yet it appears to put all the pieces of the puzzle together in a very elegant way backed up by a mountain of evidence, something which no other explanation be it divine beings or ancient aliens ever has a hope of achieving. Nothing can ever be known with absolute certainty, but 99% certainty, supported by a hundred and fifty years of research and evidence which has yet to be falsified, is good enough to be called a fact.

~Jon


#53
jjf3

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Exactly, it's the best we've got but that doesn't make it perfect.

Indeed, just like our theories for gravity which don't reconcile whatsoever between the quantum and macro scale. Why no vitriol against the theory of gravity? But seriously, the theory of evolution may not be perfect, yet it appears to put all the pieces of the puzzle together in a very elegant way backed up by a mountain of evidence, something which no other explanation be it divine beings or ancient aliens ever has a hope of achieving. Nothing can ever be known with absolute certainty, but 99% certainty, supported by a hundred and fifty years of research and evidence which has yet to be falsified, is good enough to be called a fact.


Honestly I haven't studied or researched gravity enough to try and argue against it, but if so desired i am sure i can find holes in the theory, if I do do this I will make it a new topic lolz. http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/thumbsup.gif
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#54
Rook

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Nothing can ever be known with absolute certainty, but 99% certainty, supported by a hundred and fifty years of research and evidence which has yet to be falsified, is good enough to be called a fact.


Well I agree that evidence right now is overwhelming and as far as I know there's nothing that could even be a potential contender. But calling evolution fact can move us down a bad path. It's important that evolution is taught as a theory and that it's stressed WHY it's called a theory. It's also extremely important that people be encouraged to look for alternative explanations, but stress that those explanations must also be based on observable, scientific evidence. It would be dangerous if everyone simply accepted the current popular thought and didn't at least try to come up with other theories.

Short version: Point out the theory part, but make sure to explain why it's a theory. It encourages debate. Debate is good.
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#55
mic of orion

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Let me correct you here on few points.

I didn't say entire republican party is a right wing loony bin collection of racist bigots, i've said only far right element, the teabaggers and right wing ex-kkk members.
Overall Republican party has some decent politicians and individuals who represent moderate view point that brings me to number 2.

2, Teabaggers aren't small fringe part of the republican movement, they represent one fifth of republican electorate, many of whom hate minorities, non-whites and believe nonsense such as that Earth is 6000 years old and that there are talking snakes.

A large segment of Republican party is also of similar opinion, many use religion to base their political campaigns on, somehow that makes them more honest and electable.

As to your comments regarding Obama and that evil women I can't bare to think or write her name, first off. Obama is not a radical, racist, bigoted, uneducated, stupid, self absorbed cu*t unlike someone else we know, his policies aren't radical or comprehensive, all he has done was to instigate health care reforms that were way overdue and give 50 million un-insured Americans access to medical insurance without being bankrupted in a process.

Reforms he initiated didn't go far enough to give all Americans access to free medical help/coverage as it is the case across the EU and all major industrialized nations, reason why so many liberals hate Obama, and the fact that is he compromises too much with the rebs.

Also, you can't blame Obama for economic wows America is in, you must blame Bush and his administration for it was Bush who ruined and destroyed American economy and any self-respect America had.

Now I really couldn't give a toss who you going to vote for, be it republican mainstream candidate or teabagger candidate at the next elections, but do read on what is happening around you before you start to point fingers, Rebs are good at it, yet they are the ones who caused all this mess, they are the ones who sold out America and made is a literally bankrupt. What Obama has inherited is a ruin with 14 trillion dollar debt and budget deficit that would scare Greek finance minister.

Now if you think this mess can be sorted in 4 years time you are deluding yourself, Rebs ruined America, it would take 2-3 generations of Americans to pay back/repair what Rebs/Bush did in 8 years of his rule.


First of all, have you ever talked to a tea party member? I know many tea party people through my parents and many are not how you describe them. IDK where you have been living for your lifetime, but America is a nation formed under religious beliefs and ideals no matter which way you spin how evil religion is. Billion of people believe in religion. The reason we have moral rights in our constitution and God in our pledge of allegiance. I agree with you, I don't care for it, but it is reality.

Obama's policies are not radical??? What was that slogan that he used to run for President? Change!!!! But he forgot to mention what type of change he was talking about! Besides I was not talking about Obama's policies, i was talking about his beliefs. It has been ruled illegal to force people to buy into a national healthcare plan. People have the right to choose if they want government run health care.

Look who's pointing fingers now, republicans did not cause the economic recession. Bush did not cause the recession. Bush probably doesn't know enough about economics to cause a recession. It was a combined effort between both parties and the banks. The reason for the recession was greedy wall street people with $100 million+ Salaries who think that the US economy is their playground and magic show! And while Bush added significantly to our debt, I don't see Obama doing anything different than he was where the economy is concerned. Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt. All of this is discussed behind closed doors through the major banks and corporations and it doesn't matter who is president. I never blamed Obama for the debt he just added onto it like everyone else has. The founding fathers were actually against creating a worthless paper money system and central banks which started all this mess.


something teabager would say! :whistle: http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/whistling.gif http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/shock.gif :rofl:
It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

#56
mic of orion

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Just to add it is Bush who ruined America, him and his Administration alone did it. when Clinton left America was prosperous, growing and with balanced budget (650 billion dollar surplus) and with strong regulations, Bush made America what it is today. U are yapping about big government and how you hate it, yet spend more money on defense than entire world combined. You have big government because you have big military complex, if you didn't have 1.1 trillion dollar military complex , you'd pay 40% less taxes, in short if you adopted European attitudes to defense doctrine US taxpayers would pay 3000 dollars less per head, or 9 000 dollars less per household. You want less of government, start were you pay most, and if you don't want state pension or social security, affordable health-care benefits than you should demand of your politicians to vote for no to these benefits, and when you are ripped off by corporations as most yanks are don't come to here crying about it. FFS your heath care system is one of the worst in developed world.
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It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

#57
jjf3

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Just to add it is Bush who ruined America, him and his Administration alone did it. when Clinton left America was prosperous, growing and with balanced budget (650 billion dollar surplus) and with strong regulations, Bush made America what it is today.

U are yapping about big government and how you hate it, yet spend more money on defense than entire world combined. You have big government because you have big military complex, if you didn't have 1.1 trillion dollar military complex , you'd pay 40% less taxes, in short if you adopted European attitudes to defense doctrine US taxpayers would pay 3000 dollars less per head, or 9 000 dollars less per household.

You want less of government, start were you pay most, and if you don't want state pension or social security, affordable health-care benefits than you should demand of your politicians to vote for no to these benefits, and when you are ripped off by corporations as most yanks are don't come to here crying about it.

FFS your heath care system is one of the worst in developed world.


Blaming one administration for the economic crisis is absurd and just wrong! Yeah the Clinton Administration balanced it out somewhat but as the graph that i posted awhile back proves we were still in a huge debt!!!!! We have been in a huge debt ever since the great depression! That was the best thing that ever happened on wall street and as I look more and more into it was probably planned!

I agree with you that America should not be the policemen of the world and that we should scale back pretty much all of our pointless military operations and in Bush's case, personal agendas. We should seriously sit down and work out and discuss all of our internal issues before we start telling other people that our political system is better. Which it is far from.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#58
Caiman

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[quote name='jjf3]Honestly I haven't studied or researched gravity enough to try and argue against it' date=' but if so desired i am sure i can find holes in the theory, if I do do this I will make it a new topic lolz.[/quote']
I'm not really suggesting you should, just that arguing against the fact that evolution happens is like arguing against the fact that gravity occurs.

[quote name='Rook' timestamp='1309543883' post='2343']
[quote name='Caiman' timestamp='1309542713' post='2339']
Nothing can ever be known with absolute certainty, but 99% certainty, supported by a hundred and fifty years of research and evidence which has yet to be falsified, is good enough to be called a fact.
[/quote]

Well I agree that evidence right now is overwhelming and as far as I know there's nothing that could even be a potential contender. But calling evolution fact can move us down a bad path. It's important that evolution is taught as a theory and that it's stressed WHY it's called a theory. It's also extremely important that people be encouraged to look for alternative explanations, but stress that those explanations must also be based on observable, scientific evidence. It would be dangerous if everyone simply accepted the current popular thought and didn't at least try to come up with other theories.

Short version: Point out the theory part, but make sure to explain why it's a theory. It encourages debate. Debate is good.
[/quote]
Everything you've written here makes perfect sense. We just differ on semantics, I guess ;) By no means am I suggesting we should accept any theory and move on, just that for all intents and purposes the one that we have appears to be so right, regardless of every attempt to prove otherwise, that's it's the de facto right answer. At this point, if something better comes along, it will not 'prove wrong' the current theory, just improve it (like newton/einstein for instance).

~Jon


#59
wjfox

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Bush probably doesn't know enough about economics to cause a recession.

The Bush government in 2001 predicted a 2 trillion surplus by 2011.

Lol -

http://www.futuretim...s-national-debt


Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt.

US debt as a percentage of GDP, by presidents -

http://upload.wikime...y_President.jpg
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#60
jjf3

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Bush probably doesn't know enough about economics to cause a recession.

The Bush government in 2001 predicted a 2 trillion surplus by 2011.

Lol -

http://www.futuretim...-percentage-gdp


Every president since like the 1800s has added more to the US debt.

US debt as a percentage of GDP, by presidents -

http://upload.wikime...y_President.jpg


Thanx for the graph Will. Another proof to my point that you can't blame one administration for the economic collapse of america.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.




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