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2012 US Presidential Election


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#61
wjfox

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We have been in a huge debt ever since the great depression!

Not true. It seems to me that you're just looking at total national debt, without considering the debt as a percentage of GDP.

These two graphs illustrate my point -

Debt: http://www.futuretim...-graph-2020.jpg

Debt as a percentage of GDP: http://www.futuretim...0-2010-2020.jpg

You can see that America's debt came tumbling down from 1945-1975.

#62
jjf3

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It also illustrates my point that since the great depression we have been in debt. The graphs also shows that the US economy fluctuates like a roller coaster. Depending on different variables, (who's in office hardly applies). The point that is the highest is at the peak of WWII. Afterwards ppl stayed home and cut back on spending. So did the gov't because we didn't need a huge military defense system anymore. It also shows that the Bush administration raised the GDP from 50-60% in 8 years from his personal war in Afghanistan to try to get more oil. While the Obama Administration raised it from 60% to 90% in 1.5 years with the gov't bailout. Of course without the bailout the USA would no longer be functional. However, the gov't could shut down any day now because we are not paying back our debts (we don't have the money to do so) and are just creating more smoke and mirrors (this is both sides). In my view Economic Collapse is inevitable! No matter how hard wall street can try to make the problem go away. This serious nonsense spending on both sides needs to stop and we have to start paying back out debts!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#63
mic of orion

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Just to add it is Bush who ruined America, him and his Administration alone did it. when Clinton left America was prosperous, growing and with balanced budget (650 billion dollar surplus) and with strong regulations, Bush made America what it is today.

U are yapping about big government and how you hate it, yet spend more money on defense than entire world combined. You have big government because you have big military complex, if you didn't have 1.1 trillion dollar military complex , you'd pay 40% less taxes, in short if you adopted European attitudes to defense doctrine US taxpayers would pay 3000 dollars less per head, or 9 000 dollars less per household.

You want less of government, start were you pay most, and if you don't want state pension or social security, affordable health-care benefits than you should demand of your politicians to vote for no to these benefits, and when you are ripped off by corporations as most yanks are don't come to here crying about it.

FFS your heath care system is one of the worst in developed world.


Blaming one administration for the economic crisis is absurd and just wrong! Yeah the Clinton Administration balanced it out somewhat but as the graph that i posted awhile back proves we were still in a huge debt!!!!! We have been in a huge debt ever since the great depression! That was the best thing that ever happened on wall street and as I look more and more into it was probably planned!

I agree with you that America should not be the policemen of the world and that we should scale back pretty much all of our pointless military operations and in Bush's case, personal agendas. We should seriously sit down and work out and discuss all of our internal issues before we start telling other people that our political system is better. Which it is far from.


well these should be priorities of all political parties in America, and this is why I find teabaggers so hypocritical, they want cuts, but deep down they don't want a thing to change.


U want a change, start thinking big, and start thinking how to pay back what you owe to likes of china, russia, saudi....

It is a sad day when a democratic nation needs to seek bailout money from some of the most deprived regimes on planet.
It's dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

#64
jjf3

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well these should be priorities of all political parties in America, and this is why I find teabaggers so hypocritical, they want cuts, but deep down they don't want a thing to change.


U want a change, start thinking big, and start thinking how to pay back what you owe to likes of china, russia, saudi....

It is a sad day when a democratic nation needs to seek bailout money from some of the most deprived regimes on planet.


Your right about that, they don't want real change they want to go back to the late 1940s after the war and 1950s when the economy was better than it was today and life was simpler. So I guess if that happened, it would be a change in a sense, but that can never happen. They need to wake up and see that life has changed drastically in those 50 years since then its a lot more complicated!

I welcome your opinion about how one should pay back these countries. Because honestly aside from WWIII and economic collapse I see no solution here http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#65
Wesfky

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well these should be priorities of all political parties in America, and this is why I find teabaggers so hypocritical, they want cuts, but deep down they don't want a thing to change.


U want a change, start thinking big, and start thinking how to pay back what you owe to likes of china, russia, saudi....

It is a sad day when a democratic nation needs to seek bailout money from some of the most deprived regimes on planet.


Your right about that, they don't want real change they want to go back to the late 1940s after the war and 1950s when the economy was better than it was today and life was simpler. So I guess if that happened, it would be a change in a sense, but that can never happen. They need to wake up and see that life has changed drastically in those 50 years since then its a lot more complicated!

I welcome your opinion about how one should pay back these countries. Because honestly aside from WWIII and economic collapse I see no solution here http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/question.gif


You mean back when the rich were taxed? That's bad because it is socialism and communism, EVIL!!!

TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS WORKS!!! Ronald Reagan has a degree in economics, he knew what he was doing when he tripled the nations debt.

#66
jjf3

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Communism will never happen because humans are greedy and they will never learn how to share anything equally including ideas as shown in this past debate. That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people! Socialism has been tried and is failing right before our eyes. USSR completely collapsed and China is on the verge of collapse or complete gov't change. Indeed, America has helped brainwash certain people about how 'evil' these two ideals are. Especially in the previous generation when it was all out attacking communists left and right and anybody who looked at you suspiciously was a communist. It's pretty much the same way majority of Americans are treating Arabs people today. As much as I hate to admit it, that's prejudice, and America shouldn't condone it. But this is a touchy topic because of what happened on 9/11 and since! These are great ideals but sadly will never spread throughout the world, partially due to America's police force.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#67
Wesfky

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Communism will never happen because humans are greedy and they will never learn how to share anything equally including ideas as shown in this past debate. That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Socialism has been tried and is failing right before our eyes. USSR completely collapsed and China is on the verge of collapse or complete gov't change.

Indeed, America has helped brainwash certain people about how 'evil' these two ideals are. Especially in the previous generation when it was all out attacking communists left and right and anybody who looked at you suspiciously was a communist. It's pretty much the same way majority of Americans are treating Arabs people today. As much as I hate to admit it, that's prejudice, and America shouldn't condone it. But this is a touchy topic because of what happened on 9/11 and since!

These are great ideals but sadly will never spread throughout the world, partially due to America's police force.

Capitalism is fundamentally flawed in its self, as it promotes mechanisation even if that in turn reduces the purchasing power of consumers.

http://www.futuretim...eakthrough-2010
http://www.futuretim...otic-pack-mules
http://www.futuretim...etailautomation
http://www.futuretim...htm#3d-printing
http://www.futuretim...htm#robotinsect
http://www.futuretim...utomatedfreight No truck drivers.
http://www.futuretim...m#telecommuting
http://www.futuretim...20-2029.htm#uav
http://www.futuretim...tedsupermarkets No one works in super markets.
http://www.futuretim...030-2039.htm#ai No human tele-marketers.
http://www.futuretim...htm#selfdriving No human taxi, bus and train drivers.
http://www.futuretim...2039.htm#robots No more humans in the army.
http://www.futuretim...nt-not-workers/

Also all the bad things in the West are caused by capitalism, debt, market collapse, poverty, starvation, homelessness.

(Trying to get back on topic)

That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Last week I remember hearing an American politician was charged with corruption facing eight or so years, I lol'd.

Not the people, eh? well we will found out at the next election or were you just referencing how its unconstitutional to be forced to vote, so the rich people can't make you vote for them?

#68
jjf3

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Capitalism is fundamentally flawed in its self, as it promotes mechanisation even if that in turn reduces the purchasing power of consumers.

http://www.futuretim...eakthrough-2010
http://www.futuretim...otic-pack-mules
http://www.futuretim...etailautomation
http://www.futuretim...htm#3d-printing
http://www.futuretim...htm#robotinsect
http://www.futuretim...utomatedfreight No truck drivers.
http://www.futuretim...m#telecommuting
http://www.futuretim...20-2029.htm#uav
http://www.futuretim...tedsupermarkets No one works in super markets.
http://www.futuretim...030-2039.htm#ai No human tele-marketers.
http://www.futuretim...htm#selfdriving No human taxi, bus and train drivers.
http://www.futuretim...2039.htm#robots No more humans in the army.
http://www.futuretim...nt-not-workers/

Also all the bad things in the West are caused by capitalism, debt, market collapse, poverty, starvation, homelessness.

(Trying to get back on topic)

That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Last week I remember hearing an American politician was charged with corruption facing eight or so years, I lol'd.

Not the people, eh? well we will found out at the next election or were you just referencing how its unconstitutional to be forced to vote, so the rich people can't make you vote for them?


The links you posted only proves that technology is taking over our society at an alarmingly fast rate, and it will probably take over our political system to, most likely in our generation. I don't believe that capitalism is the reason for the worries of the world. It's the Wall Streeters and the rich families of the world that really control it. Even if somehow our society became socialists or communists the rich would still rule the world, because it would be the rich that set the system up. Technology would still be around even without capitalism, but its likely that the everyday citizen wouldn't have access to it. Think about the countries like Libya (which combines socialism and islamic traditions) and where Gaddafi has complete control over the entire technological community. I don't think that's soo much better than our system.

Nope, people don't necessarily control their own votes or who they elect into the political office. Every year the most powerful people in the world get together to talk about what they are going to do inside their own companies, private wars, economic policies, and what they will force the gov't to do. Every four years companies and the rich families invest in presidential campaigns. If you lack their support you will likely not make it to the primaries. Then the most powerful corporations go on an all out spending spree after the nominees are elected and they invest, invest, invest. I have a chart somewhere pertaining to the 2008 election. Oh yea and there have been too many elections where there appears to be some type of mysterious lost votes that can never be found and a very close call!!!!

I'm not talking about lowly politicians here. I am talking about the old money families who made their fortunes in the industrial era, and whom now control our very world behind closed doors: the Rockefellers, Morgans, Rothchilds, Fords, Vanderbuilts, Du Ponts, and the Lehmans among a select few others like Sudai kings, royal princes and princesses, the royal British family, and a few celebrities. These people control the world's money and money controls the world!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#69
OrbitalResonance

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Ill keep my capital till an abundance resource management system arises thank you very much.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#70
Wesfky

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Capitalism is fundamentally flawed in its self, as it promotes mechanisation even if that in turn reduces the purchasing power of consumers.

http://www.futuretim...eakthrough-2010
http://www.futuretim...otic-pack-mules
http://www.futuretim...etailautomation
http://www.futuretim...htm#3d-printing
http://www.futuretim...htm#robotinsect
http://www.futuretim...utomatedfreight No truck drivers.
http://www.futuretim...m#telecommuting
http://www.futuretim...20-2029.htm#uav
http://www.futuretim...tedsupermarkets No one works in super markets.
http://www.futuretim...030-2039.htm#ai No human tele-marketers.
http://www.futuretim...htm#selfdriving No human taxi, bus and train drivers.
http://www.futuretim...2039.htm#robots No more humans in the army.
http://www.futuretim...nt-not-workers/

Also all the bad things in the West are caused by capitalism, debt, market collapse, poverty, starvation, homelessness.

(Trying to get back on topic)

That is also the reason why the richest men in the world really control everything. Not the people!

Last week I remember hearing an American politician was charged with corruption facing eight or so years, I lol'd.

Not the people, eh? well we will found out at the next election or were you just referencing how its unconstitutional to be forced to vote, so the rich people can't make you vote for them?


The links you posted only proves that technology is taking over our society at an alarmingly fast rate, and it will probably take over our political system to, most likely in our generation. I don't believe that capitalism is the reason for the worries of the world. It's the Wall Streeters and the rich families of the world that really control it. Even if somehow our society became socialists or communists the rich would still rule the world, because it would be the rich that set the system up. Technology would still be around even without capitalism, but its likely that the everyday citizen wouldn't have access to it. Think about the countries like Libya (which combines socialism and islamic traditions) and where Gaddafi has complete control over the entire technological community. I don't think that's soo much better than our system.

Nope, people don't necessarily control their own votes or who they elect into the political office. Every year the most powerful people in the world get together to talk about what they are going to do inside their own companies, private wars, economic policies, and what they will force the gov't to do. Every four years companies and the rich families invest in presidential campaigns. If you lack their support you will likely not make it to the primaries. Then the most powerful corporations go on an all out spending spree after the nominees are elected and they invest, invest, invest. I have a chart somewhere pertaining to the 2008 election. Oh yea and there have been too many elections where there appears to be some type of mysterious lost votes that can never be found and a very close call!!!!

I'm not talking about lowly politicians here. I am talking about the old money families who made their fortunes in the industrial era, and whom now control our very world behind closed doors: the Rockefellers, Morgans, Rothchilds, Fords, Vanderbuilts, Du Ponts, and the Lehmans among a select few others like Sudai kings, royal princes and princesses, the royal British family, and a few celebrities. These people control the world's money and money controls the world!


So wait, you are saying everything bad and just plain wrong in this world is because of capitalism, and yet you are arguing that it is better than socialism even though it is also flawed as global mechanisation will reduce the purchasing power of consumers.

#71
OrbitalResonance

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I bet I am more of an idealist than you are.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#72
Shimmy

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China is on the verge of collapse or complete gov't change


It is?

#73
jjf3

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So wait, you are saying everything bad and just plain wrong in this world is because of capitalism, and yet you are arguing that it is better than socialism even though it is also flawed as global mechanisation will reduce the purchasing power of consumers.


I'm sorry but the way most people want socialism to work, will never happen because the rich control everything. That wasn't brought on by capitalism, that was brought on by pure human greed. Even if we were to go back in time and become, communists or socialists, there would still be greed among those high profile rich families as I stated before. And also, would you rather be under Stalin's rule? Or Maybe even Hitler's? Most of the rich families in the world invested in Hitler's One World Government when they tried to set it up. America however, fought back along with a few others.

Even the world socialist movement has realized that their system would eventually become overrun with greed and consumerism/mechanization

Read the last paragraph here.

Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism.


If the world was socialist and communist we wouldn't even have purchasing power because the gov't would tell us what to buy/need to survive and you couldn't buy or own anything else. The rich would still have everything they have because they are rich and pretty much above the political systems they put into place.

Other counties in the world like China, EU, Libya, Egypt are struggling to keep there systems in place just like the US. No one's system is the best, but I think Capitalism is a little bit better than the others. It has worked ok-ish for the countries that have adapted it. Certainly lasted longer than Russia's USSR, China's communism, and Hitler's One World Government. The EU is now struggling as well.

It doesn't matter what system you have; Be it a Kingdom, military rule, capitalism, socialism and/or the fantasy of communism. Humans are greedy. It's in our nature. You can't blame capitalism for the world's problems. Blame human greed, because human greed was around much longer than any political system!!!

China on Verge of collapse: Here, and here

America's evil capitalist society has been around for 235 years!!!! For awhile there we were the strongest Nation in the world, and we still are one of the strongest nations in the world. Live with it! Because you can't go back in time and change the past to make the world socialist, something that couldn't possibly happen anyway.
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#74
OrbitalResonance

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Humans are greedy. It's in our nature.



This is a lie [the nature part], but i am not going to get into it.

Nature vs Nurture, Nurture always wins.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#75
jjf3

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Humans are greedy. It's in our nature.



This is a lie [the nature part], but i am not going to get into it.

Nature vs Nurture, Nurture always wins.


Competition and hence greed arose as early as humanity itself. We are the only species that can think as well as driven by our instincts. If one tribe got more food one day, than your tribe would want to get more food than them the next day. It makes us feel good to beat people, like in that way. That one tribe could have shared it with your tribe but, they feel that you don't deserve it, because you didn't work for it.

Why the competition? Power and Greed! Sure you all need food in your tribe to survive, but you would want to be in the best, biggest, strongest, and smartest tribe and you show that by the amount of food you have or in our case now stuff. As long as there is stuff to be acquired there will always be means of acquiring said stuff, and ppl will want more stuff!

Hence why our society is NOT a utopia and shares everything with everybody. This is also the main reason why Socialism can never work the way most ppl dream about.

It's also the main reason world peace is a silly concept. In this state, world peace cannot be achieved because there will always be those ppl who want more stuff! Maybe with a smaller population, more brainwashing drugs and technologies, and a one world gov't system socialism will work well, but that is not what we have on this world, and it won't happen (if ever) for a very long time.

At some point in the future we could get a world gov't of some type (2050?) but it won't really be a world gov't, because there will always be the 'terrorists' and the rebels.

I have since moved this debate into a new thread because I am done talking about it here!
"Did you really expect some utopian fantasy to rise from the ashes?" Thomas Zarek-- Battlestar Galactica.

#76
Nick1984

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All those technological innovations that Weskfy listen wouldn't be possible without capitalism, just as the technological innovations of the past. What innovations did the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cambodia and Cuba come up with in the 20th century? Why is South Korea the most technically advanced countries in the world while North Koreans still farm with ox carts and eat grass. Communism achieves only two things, famine and starvation.

#77
Wesfky

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All those technological innovations that Weskfy listen wouldn't be possible without capitalism, just as the technological innovations of the past.

Well you are missing the point, I was listing ways capitalism will fail as it increasingly reduces purchasing power to consumers as people to continue to get replaced by robots and AI

Why is South Korea the most technically advanced countries in the world while North Koreans still farm with ox carts and eat grass. Communism achieves only two things, famine and starvation.

I think that's called a dictatorship mate.

Implying that there is no famine and starvation in USA. When it is in fact a fundamentally key in capitalism that the majority of people are in the lower class.

This can be seen when comparing people living below the poverty line in USA and Sweden.

#78
Nick1984

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Yes, and without capitalism we wouldn't have had any of those technological innovations or their forebearers. Name one innovation to come out of a communist country? Capitalist countries and competitive individuals invented the car, the computer, the Internet, mobile phones, videogames, numerous healthcare and scientific advances. What have communists ever invented which they didn't steal?

#79
wjfox

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Name one innovation to come out of a communist country?

The first satellite
The first man in space
Vaccine for meningitis B
'Cheap' Hib vaccine
AK-47
Mig 21/MiG-23/MiG-27/MiG-29 etc.
Nylon 6
Modern contact lenses
Rubik's Cube

More here -
http://en.wikipedia....y_records#1940s

http://www.futuretim...tyle_emoticons/animate/turned.gif

#80
Nick1984

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All modifications of pre-Communist technologies.




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