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What fictional future would you like to live in?


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#21
Cosmic Cat

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Except that there is no such thing as unlimited resources, and thus post scarcity will never happen. Didn't we already go over this? Plus, doesn't the removal of freedom of choice make communism suck?

 

I think by unlimited resources he means post-scarcity or abundance of materials. Something in which we already have but for some reason, it isn't distributed evenly and properly. Hmmmm, I wonder why?

 

Besides that, reading the wookiepedia again, I may want to live in the Star Wars universe too. More diverse than other universes.



#22
TreeHandThing

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A fun fact I love to throw out is that most of the planets that we seen in the original SW trilogy are the galactic equivalent of third world countries: Tatooine, Hoth, Dagobah, Endor. The only advanced planet that we saw was Alderaan, but we never actually got a view from the surface.

The SW galaxy has 3.2 billion habitable planets and 20 million sapient species. The population of sapient species is in the quintillions. Most citizens live on ecumenopolis planets/moons such as Coruscant or Nar Shaddaa. Hyperdrives allow for 100,000,000c. SW ships can cross the galaxy in hours. In comparison, ST's warp drive allows for 2,000c.

#23
Cosmic Cat

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A fun fact I love to throw out is that most of the planets that we seen in the original SW trilogy are the galactic equivalent of third world countries: Tatooine, Hoth, Dagobah, Endor. The only advanced planet that we saw was Alderaan, but we never actually got a view from the surface.

The SW galaxy has 3.2 billion habitable planets and 20 million sapient species. The population of sapient species is in the quintillions. Most citizens live on ecumenopolis planets/moons such as Coruscant or Nar Shaddaa. Hyperdrives allow for 100,000,000c. SW ships can cross the galaxy in hours. In comparison, ST's warp drive allows for 2,000c.

 

I'll take your word for it.



#24
FutureGuy

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Except that there is no such thing as unlimited resources, and thus post scarcity will never happen

 

 

Unlimited as in much more than you'll ever need. 

 

 

 

 

The Star Trek universe is a dystopia masquerading as a utopia.

The Star Wars universe is a utopia masquerading as a dystopia.

 

 

I call bullshit on this. The star wars universe is pretty much like the 1970s just in space with some more technology. It's not a dystopia, but I would never want a future like that, because it's not that different compared to our world, the society is the same, same structure, same economy, same everything but in space. And, society as it is now is terrible, and it would be terrible in space too, even with warp drives, even with lightsabers, even with aliens and robots. How is something that resembles our modern world a utopia?



#25
Cosmic Cat

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Not here please

#26
TreeHandThing

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That comment is so stupid in so many ways that I'm not going to bother writing an in-depth response.

Do some nerd research, jackass.

#27
Cosmic Cat

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That comment is so stupid in so many ways that I'm not going to bother writing an in-depth response.
Do some nerd research, jackass.

"[this] comment is so stupid in so many ways that I'm not going to bother writing an in-depth response."

#28
TreeHandThing

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+9000

#29
TheAsianGuy_LOL

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Umm, how is this going down already? Anyways, I haven't heard much of any other sci-fi places you guys want to be.


"We know Everything, but not Everything"~ Me

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#30
tigerghost

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Definitely a Star Trek guy here [and yes, I read that whole wall thing that was posted and think it's utter bull]. Capitalism will not last forever, not saying that communism will replace it, but I prefer Utopian socialism. The only thing resembling Communism in the Star Trek universe is the Borg, which is ironic in a way since both the Borg and the Federation have similar end goals [seek out new life, civilizations, knowledge, ect...] just through different means. The Borg offer no choice. It just proves to show that the political spectrum is not linear, but more circular [the further right or left you go seems to fall in the same place].

 

You are looking at the Star Trek universe through the lens of, essentially, the NAVY, so of course it's going to have a government-esque feel to it. Think about it, you never really see how life conducts itself on individual planets because the next episode takes us somewhere else [aka Star Trek as the "Space Western"] and who knows how the colonies experiment with currency and livlihood. The only series that actually dove into the lifestyle and culture of the Federation was Deep Space Nine and it was still operated by the NAVY (Starfleet) and placed far away from Federation space [Bajor was not a member of the Federation during the bulk of the series]. A money-less society is not necessarily a communist one. There are a multitude of economic schools that have money, why can't the same be true for schools with no money?

 

It's a post-work society. We labor because we WANT to, not because we HAVE to. Communism doesn't function like that. Communism forces work. In fact, at the rate at which we are going in the advancement of robotics, I'd say we are well on our way to approaching that era where we will need to fundamentally change our attitude towards work in general since robots will end up holding most of the jobs. I'd point to the anime Vexille as a good example of what is lost when humanity is relies all of its labor on machines in a negative sense, but I digress. 

 

The point is 1) you are assuming that Utopian Socialism and Communism are the same thing, which they are not 2) Star Trek is a show centered around the NAVY (Starfleet) thus will hold a somewhat biased statement on how life is within that organization 3) We don't really know how Federation citizens conduct their lives in the colonies due to lack of time spent on any individual planet per episode 4) People work, but it's not because they are forced to, they WANT to 5) You want Communism in Star Trek, it exists - it's the BORG and the Federation isn't exactly an ally of the Borg 6) Replicators would make money and currency virtually obsolete 7) You seem to forget that TNG-era Star Trek was made in the late-eighties and throughout the 1990s, so modern limitations such as copyrights, feasibility, and our technology at the time couldn't produce the special effects to create a Coruscant for a televised program 8 ) Picard never said how society chose to abandon the acquisition of wealth in The Neutral Zone episode, so again you are assuming (through a modern lens) that it MUST have been through communism.

 

I'm a socialist, not a communist. If left unchecked, capitalism does a pretty good job of destroying itself through monopolization and boom-and-bust cycles until it turns into something very un-capitalistic. Why do you think governments in 2008 were so frantic about saving banks, investment firms and throwing bail-out money everywhere? Because, at its heart (no pun intended because it doesn't have a heart), capitalism can't survive without a little dose of socialism every once in a while. Maybe it really would have been better to NOT interfere and just see how it goes. Watching Capitalism suffer the same fate of the Communist Soviet Union would have been a real show. It's sad that we never seem to learn our lesson though, FDR was right, but again I digress. That's for another post.



#31
TreeHandThing

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Capitalism will not last forever, not saying that communism will replace it, but I prefer Utopian socialism.

Why won't it last forever? Give me reasons. Why is a free market a bad thing?

It's a post-work society. We labor because we WANT to, not because we HAVE to. Communism doesn't function like that. Communism forces work.

Prove that the Federation doesn't force work (through either brainwashing, or threat of punishment). If everyone has what they need to live, why do they work? Why do they want to? Laziness is an evolved trait: we want to work the least amount of time to conserve energy.

In fact, at the rate at which we are going in the advancement of robotics, I'd say we are well on our way to approaching that era where we will need to fundamentally change our attitude towards work in general since robots will end up holding most of the jobs.

For my opinion on this, see: http://www.futuretim...-are-old/page-3

1) you are assuming that Utopian Socialism and Communism are the same thing, which they are not

If I am, and ST is "utopian socialism", tell me why nobody owns property, the state owns all transportation, the state owns all communication, the state owns all industry, and citizens are forced to work (prove to me that they aren't).

2) Star Trek is a show centered around the NAVY (Starfleet) thus will hold a somewhat biased statement on how life is within that organization

And SW is centered around a terrorist organization. However, we can still clearly see that they have an enlightened free market.

It doesn't matter what organization that the media is centered around. We can still deduce the economic system.

4) People work, but it's not because they are forced to, they WANT to

Prove it.

6) Replicators would make money and currency virtually obsolete

So replicators create objects ex nihilo? No? Oh, so replicators remove supply and demand? No? Oh, so replicators don't require power, maintenance, or information? No? Oh, so replicators can synthesize everything? No?

The Ferengi have replicators and they are clearly capitalist. Replicators change the value and availability of commodities, but not much else.

BTW, SW has replicators too (Han Solo and the Lost Legacy).

7) You seem to forget that TNG-era Star Trek was made in the late-eighties and throughout the 1990s, so modern limitations such as copyrights, feasibility, and our technology at the time couldn't produce the special effects to create a Coruscant for a televised program

Doesn't matter. We never saw any personal transport, nor did we any private enterprise which is commonplace on the bustling Coruscant. And that's what matters.

8 ) Picard never said how society chose to abandon the acquisition of wealth in The Neutral Zone episode, so again you are assuming (through a modern lens) that it MUST have been through communism.

I'm not assuming anything. There is plenty of evidence that they are communist.

If left unchecked, capitalism does a pretty good job of destroying itself through monopolization and boom-and-bust cycles until it turns into something very un-capitalistic.

100% true. We need government intervention.

Also of note is that Federation citizens constantly commit suicide for the sake of the collective. Transporters kill you, and clone you (Second Chances).

#32
zEVerzan

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That comment is so stupid in so many ways that I'm not going to bother writing an in-depth response.

Do some nerd research, jackass.

 

Clearly hurt in the booty.

 

The Star Trek universe is a dystopia masquerading as a utopia.

The Star Wars universe is a utopia masquerading as a dystopia.

 

 

Haha, no. Star Wars isn't really a dystopia or utopia, it's a freaking fantasy setting in space. The Galactic Empire is exactly as evil as the movies make them out to be, in the very first movie they destroy a planet full of people just to spite the Princess even after she met their demands. Yes, she lied, but it was an idiotic move just to be evil. Utopian civilizations don't torture prisoners or destroy planets, nor do they cause rebellions to form in response.

 

Star Trek isn't perfect, but just about everyone seems happy, and at least the Federation bothers to negotiate and attempt to keep the peace rather than practicing rampant abuse of their power.


I always imagined the future as a time of more reason, empathy, and peace, not less. It's time for a change.
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#33
tigerghost

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In response to TreeHandThing (because I'm not going to fill the forum with all quotes): Star Trek is a society of volunteers. Yes, replicators can't create matter out of nothing, but they are pretty good at recycling matter too. In DS9, they've returned dirty plates to their replicators to be reintroduced to the system at which the raw matter could be turned into something else. Who knows? They may even recycle their biological waste products into the machine's raw matter supply (disturbing thought). Replicators aren't magic; Voyager had to start rationing their use in the Delta Quadrant due to energy/supply needs. Money, in some form does exist in the ST universe and the Federation. Basic needs, such as food, clothing, toys for children, tools, ect... can be replicated, so money is pretty null in the core planets of the Federation. Dr. Crusher mentioned having a dress charged to her account in Encounter at Farpoint. She had to use credit because the dress she wanted was labored on, not replicated. The way I see it is that physical money turned into the credit and, with time, a person's stock in credit became less and less important to the individual or the transaction process. A person's "wealth" became trivial knowledge before becoming obsolete entirely. The outer worlds of the Federation would still have a use for the credit because they would trade with bordering, primitive systems that are not under Federation jurisdiction or among themselves because they lacked the infrastructure or resources of the inner planetary systems. This would also be the reason why Federation officers would find Quark's bar appealing for drinks, holo-suites, and gambling. What did they gamble with? The credits that they accumulated from their duty shifts. On Earth, their credit wouldn't matter; but in Bajor space, it would.

 

I volunteer. Many people volunteer. Why is working for nothing such a hard concept for certain individuals to understand. It isn't slave work. I enjoy working. Sometimes, I feel like people act like working for free is a sin against society. Why do I need to be paid for what I do? Money, money, money..... it's such a sad thing to obsess over. You aren't going to win me over by saying I need to be exploitative, greedy, and less empathetic to others less fortunate.

 

Capitalism will not last forever because its predecessor, Mercantilism did not last forever. These dominant schools of economic thought seem to have an average lifespan of 200-400 years, so we are due for a shift soon since Capitalism became the dominant school of economic thought with the industrial revolution. 

 

Wow. Just realized how off topic this debate got from the headlining question, "What fictional future would you like to live in?"

 

PS: TreeHandThing... I absolutely love how into Star Wars you are. You really seem to know your canon.



#34
OrbitalResonance

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It takes a change of values. Change of values. Change of values.

 

Anyway, my chosen future would be the Orion's Arm universe. http://www.orionsarm.com/


We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#35
TheAsianGuy_LOL

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It takes a change of values. Change of values. Change of values.

 

Anyway, my chosen future would be the Orion's Arm universe. http://www.orionsarm.com/

That future is so creepy and complex lol.


"We know Everything, but not Everything"~ Me

"Don't question what I know, question what I don't know."~ Me

"Fear kills more dreams than failure ever will"~Italian UFO


#36
Ru1138

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I'd like to live in the Macrolife universe after the

Spoiler
.


What difference does it make?


#37
OrbitalResonance

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Also, long live the Hiigaran Navy. Sexiest ships in the galaxy. Down with the empire, forever. 

 

hiigaran_crest_by_doberman211-d534jmy.pn


We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. - Carl Sagan


#38
Cosmic Cat

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I'd like to live in the Macrolife universe after the (spoilers) Bulerite collapse (/spoilers).

 

( -> [



#39
Ru1138

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( -> [


'Tis edited.


What difference does it make?


#40
KomissarBojantchev

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I would never want to live in the SW universe. Ridden with hundreds of millenia of warlords, slavery, and the general domininance of the sith. In SW When everything is looking as if it will improve the sith always return it to another few hundred or thousand years of suffering.






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