Ukraine War Watch Thread

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joe00uk
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by joe00uk »

Again, I’ll tell you what my angle is. Yeah, obviously war is bad and it’s terrible that innocent people have to suffer and die. Every war is tragic, and this one really isn’t unique. My main issue is why we in the West are expected to make sacrifices to support Ukraine. We have nothing to do with them and it’s not justifiable for us to have to get involved and take their side, even just with sanctions, when doing so just makes life harder for us (and also happens to accomplish little else). I really couldn’t care less if not wanting to see more poverty and hardship in my own country than there has to be makes me morally disgusting to you. I’m just not interested in cringeworthy virtue signalling where I have to cheerlead for Ukraine, because what’s the point wasting our time cheerleading for any country that happens to be invaded? And if this can’t be extended to every other invaded country, then why is Ukraine special? In any case, such sycophancy doesn’t make us heroes and it doesn’t even help those people. It’s nothing more than a feel-good exercise for middle class Westerners.

If you’re not interested in all this criticism or the reasons behind it, then sure enough, there’s no point to this conversation because that’s all it’s about. I’m not going to tell you what emotions to feel, but if other people want a more cerebral discussion about history, philosophy and politics, then that’s fine too.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Certain Russian user »

Vakanai wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:16 am I suppose however it is useless to tell you that over nearly 70 years that most Crimeans actually did grow a Ukrainian identity
Useless indeed… where Joe gave you survey data (which you seem to completely ignored), I’ll just quote the old saying (Ukrainian-Jewish saying, btw): "if one still needs to explain this, one actually shouldn't".

You’re so typical, alas… blatant hubris combined with blatant ignorance, appeal to own "feelings" as argument in discussion, proud declarations that opponent's opinion “have no value here” and better to be silenced, and so on. And Joe as “Putin’s apologist”? Oh man…
funkervogt wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:06 pm
joe00uk wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 2:50 pm Whereas I think that the actions countries take should have the interests of their own people at their core. Quite clearly, our governments are more committed to propping up a dying Anglo-American empire than actually tending to the welfare of our people. This conflict shouldn't involve us at all.
What do you mean? Russia is a major rival to the West, and thus it benefits us to do whatever we can to weaken Russia. The opportunity to do so has presented itself in Ukraine thanks to Russia's invasion. The more weapons and money we give to Ukraine, the more Russian forces are destroyed, and the more damaged their economy gets. The West has a much larger economy than Russia, so it can outspend them on the battlefield. The argument for helping Ukraine is practical.
But here I rather agree with Funkervogt. Such a fresh breath of honest realism in a swamp of hollow moralizing! Of course, this is the vital necessity of Anglo-American empire to fight Russia, be it in Ukraine or anywhere else. Exactly to save (at least delay the erosion of) the "rule based" world providing the undeservedly high living standards in the core and keeping periphery permanently behind. And the well being of Anglo-American population (not elites only!) directly tied to survival of Anglo-American world order.

No any numbers, graphs, or long essays, just a deliberately rough and schematic example. There are two countries freely trading with each other. First country producing IPhones, Louis Vuitton bags and financial services, the second one producing "only" the fuel and grain. Sometimes, the first country can even build a couple of factories in the second (but, of course, will keep the patents, know-hows and headquarters for themselves). Investments, globalization enriches everyone! But there is a nuance. Under this already existing division of labor, the second country can no longer start producing iPhones (the niche is already taken, the market logic dictate it will cheaper and better to stay as it is, etc), thus it also does not need the science and high standards of education (elite children can study in the first country, after all), and so on.

Well, this "rule-based" world is currently crumbling, the "poor" country going to stay without Louis Vuitton bags, and the "rich" one without fuel and grain... the "rich" country is horrified, the "poor" one got a chance. Only a chance, no any guarantees. But even this chance worth fighting!

Here WjFox tried to "threaten" me that West will "despise and ignore" Russia "for fifty years". Well, I think 50 years later his grandchildren will worry about something completely different. Perhaps even this: how and where to find a good language courses, then emigrate to Empire and get a job as a gardener of decent Russian family. :lol:
Last edited by Certain Russian user on Sun May 22, 2022 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Certain Russian user »

PS as for western aid to Ukraine, I wouldn't count on that much. Of course, it does matter, but far from crucial. Small part of this aid becomes scrap-metal after our missile strikes, and even bigger part being just dropped by retreating (or killed) Ukrainian reservists and then put into service by DPR and LPR militaries (there is an order to cede this captured stuff to them, as Russia doesn't actually need it).
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
Vakanai
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Vakanai »

Certain Russian user wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:14 am
Vakanai wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:16 am I suppose however it is useless to tell you that over nearly 70 years that most Crimeans actually did grow a Ukrainian identity
Useless indeed… where Joe gave you survey data (which you seem to completely ignored), I’ll just quote the old saying (Ukrainian-Jewish saying, btw): "if one still needs to explain this, one actually shouldn't".

You’re so typical, alas… blatant hubris combined with blatant ignorance, appeal to own "feelings" as argument in discussion, proud declarations that opponent's opinion “have no value here” and better to be silenced, and so on. And Joe as “Putin’s apologist”? Oh man…
I'm sorry, but you are not in a position to call out my feelings - because your posts show that you are far from unemotional. You're also needlessly aggressive, overly patriotic, and callous to the suffering of those you view as "militant" to your country. I might disagree with Joe, and I might not be able to discuss this without my emotions clouding my thinking, but after our discussion I can at least respect Joe. You sir, are scum. I hope that calling a member scum doesn't get me banned here, I like this forum. But I'm willing to risk a ban in this case because of just how skin crawlingly disgusted I am with your views here. I'm gonna go find this forum's ignore feature now, so if I am still allowed on this site I won't risk seeing further posts from you.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Certain Russian user »

Vakanai wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:13 am You sir, are scum. I hope that calling a member scum doesn't get me banned here, I like this forum. But I'm willing to risk...
Rest assured, you're safe, WjFox do not ban people over such trifles (otherwise, who will remain?). If this helps, I officially declare I am not at all offended. You can also add me to "foes" list in your account settings to not see my disturbing posts.
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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joe00uk
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by joe00uk »

Certain Russian user wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:14 am But here I rather agree with Funkervogt. Such a fresh breath of honest realism in a swamp of hollow moralizing! Of course, this is the vital necessity of Anglo-American empire to fight Russia, be it in Ukraine or anywhere else. Exactly to save (at least delay the erosion of) the "rule based" world providing the undeservedly high living standards in the core and keeping periphery permanently behind. And the well being of Anglo-American population (not elites only!) directly tied to survival of Anglo-American world order.
Whilst you’re right that our higher standards of living are tied to the survival of this empire, given that this empire is already well into decline, my argument is that we should be doing everything we can to cushion that decline and make the transition as smooth a journey as possible. Cutting ourselves off from Russian resources does the opposite of that. It needlessly increases the costs we have to pay, deepens the poverty more and more of us will face, and considerably speeds up our decline to Third World status. Keeping the empire alive forever is impossible, but there are smart ways to withdraw and there are dumb ways. Just like someone facing old age knows they will become weaker and unable to do what they could in their youth. They can choose to set aside money to save for retirement, or blow it all away on unnecessary things leaving themselves with nothing to support them as they age. They can eat well and exercise, look after their health, and (probably) face fewer health problems - or they can drink as much booze as they can afford, eat as much junk food and smoke like a chimney and find their way to an early grave or years of debilitating (and avoidable) sickness.
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andmar74
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by andmar74 »



I think the CNN host is really good.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Certain Russian user »

British fighter in Ukraine reveals the reality of war with Russia on ‘meat grinder’ frontline
https://inews.co.uk/news/british-fighte ... ne-1638349
A British fighter has compared the reality of life on the Ukrainian frontline with Western volunteers battling Russian forces to being hurled into a “meat grinder”.
...
Curtis, from Reading, Berkshire, who returned to the UK last week but wants to go back to Ukraine to carry on the fight, believes “80 per cent” of non-Ukrainian fighters he met have now left, citing concerns over a lack of weapons and intelligence that left them “going blind into operations”.

“They are sending you out to fight with no paperwork, which is our biggest issue. So our families are not going to be compensated if the worst does happen,” he told
...
After crossing into Ukraine, Curtis and other armed forces veterans left a military base near the Polish border housing foreign volunteers, many of whom had no military experience, after raising concerns about a lack of security vetting and fears their location would be revealed by social media posts.

Ten hours after they left, part of the training centre was obliterated in a Russian missile attack, killing dozens.
...
“There were lads going on the frontline without helmets,” he claimed. “We were going in blind into operations. We went out on patrol and blokes were coming down with trenchfoot.

“There are ex-special forces, British and American, that we bumped into. They know the risks, they are not there to die, but they are going into places with no intelligence. They were constantly leaving as they were fed up with it.”

Curtis flew back to the UK a week ago following 60 days in Ukraine. He still believes joining the fight was “the right thing to do” but wants any future volunteers to realise the reality of what they would be heading into.

"Russian missile attack killing dozens... They are not there to die... 80 percent left..." - yeah, I can imagine the shock. In most places where those mercenaries used to "project power", their enemies are bearded guys with AKs, and the only airstrikes or cruise missiles are their own.

Not that this testimony was something new and fresh. This is exactly what's going on right now: more and more of poorly trained conscripts are sent to the east to "hold the line"... regime is still trading lives for time.
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

I wish you guys would get your story straight. At one moment it is "well, everything in the Western media is biased against Russia and our viewpoint," and the next is "here is somehting in the Western media supporting our argument."

Right.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

joe00uk wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:35 am
Certain Russian user wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:14 am But here I rather agree with Funkervogt. Such a fresh breath of honest realism in a swamp of hollow moralizing! Of course, this is the vital necessity of Anglo-American empire to fight Russia, be it in Ukraine or anywhere else. Exactly to save (at least delay the erosion of) the "rule based" world providing the undeservedly high living standards in the core and keeping periphery permanently behind. And the well being of Anglo-American population (not elites only!) directly tied to survival of Anglo-American world order.
Whilst you’re right that our higher standards of living are tied to the survival of this empire, given that this empire is already well into decline, my argument is that we should be doing everything we can to cushion that decline and make the transition as smooth a journey as possible. Cutting ourselves off from Russian resources does the opposite of that. It needlessly increases the costs we have to pay, deepens the poverty more and more of us will face, and considerably speeds up our decline to Third World status. Keeping the empire alive forever is impossible, but there are smart ways to withdraw and there are dumb ways....
Wait, I thought you were the guy that favored Brexit on the grounds that rugged individualism and separatism was better for Great Britain than being intertwined with the European Union. We have seen how that is working out.

Now, suddenly, its wrong to "cut ourselves off from Russian resources"?

Right.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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