Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Excuse me...

Why should we help Ukraine?, we didn't help Iraq, we didn't help Panama...
Is just a question of "likes"?

We were hoping Afghanistan to win against the USSR? and against USA too?


-I case of a "quick" interpretation... I am not saying anything about hoping Russia to win-
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 am Excuse me...

Why should we help Ukraine?, we didn't help Iraq, we didn't help Panama...
Is just a question of "likes"?

We were hoping Afghanistan to win against the USSR? and against USA too?

-I case of a "quick" interpretation... I am not saying anything about hoping Russia to win-
Because Ukraine is, or at least was, a fledgling democracy. One that was subject to an unprovoked attack - a savage act of aggression.

Debatable about whether we did or did not "help" Iraq. I could take either side of that argument and not find myself entirely convinced by my arguments. On the whole, I suppose I would tentatively conclude that we did more harm than good. Still, I can see the argument that getting rid of Sadam Hussein as a leader was of benefit. He had ordered the launching of invasions against Iran and Kuwait. Hardly the actions of a "likable" person. He also was a dictator - one that gained power through something other than democratic means.

Noriega, also a dictator, was hardly a nice and likeable guy in Panama, although that did not necessarily justify an invasion there. Construction of a canal at least had the potential of bringing in revenues to the Panamanians, although arguably it was more an imperialistic endeavor. At any rate, it would be helpful if you could specify particular actions or time frames in your question, rather than leave us readers the task of guessing what the hell you are writing about.

When Russia invaded Afghanistan. I am not sure what "we were hoping." There were policies of containment being promulgated at the time of Russia's invasion, so I suppose you could deduce that we were therefore hoping for a "win" by Afghanistan.

When the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, it chose sides in a civil war there. The invasion was justified by the need to strike back at Al Qaeda, an organization that had launched a terrorist attack against the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, etc. Now you may object to calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization, but it is still clear that they were the instigators of the events of 9/11. Personally, I thought we should have confined our actions to striking at Al Qaeda, as opposed to also taking sides in the war against the Taliban, but as an individual, I do not control U.S. foreign policy.

Getting back to promoting democracy. One of the benefits is that once in place it provides a relatively peaceful framework for establishing and implementing political policies. One in which disputes can be aired in public and citizens can voice their opinions, ideally without fear of reprisal for doing so. When properly functioning, it can therefore lead to less death and destruction.

In the case of Ukraine, it is not just a matter of defending a fellow democracy. There is also the question of genocide. Under Stalin, the Ukrainians were arguably subject to genocidal policies. Given the types of justifications of aggressive policies being brough forth by Putin and his media mouthpieces, there is every reason to believe that Ukrainians have a legitimate fear of being the victims of yet another genocidal assault. So, we can also sympathize with their basic desire to defend themselves.

Now, if you believe that constitutes a "whitewashing" of Ukrainian actions, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

As for what I hope for, by now it should be clear that I am hoping for a negotiated settlement in which the legitimate interests of the need for national security and protections of minorities on both sides of the conflict are taken into account.
Don't mourn, organize.

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Yes, I take for granted that in a webpage about the invasion of Ukraine if I mention "Iraq" and "Panama", everybody around here is going to get the reference.

I am not surprise about your whitewashing of "selected" killings. We create and support dictatorships, using the word "dictator" is a lame excuse and blatant hypocrisy too, we don't invade every dictatorship, we don't support every democracy; changing interests, that's all.

USSR invaded Afghanistan to avoid a 9/11, see how easy it is? Invasion justified, all the killing, justified.


(And, not trying to start a different thread, I will recommend you to talk to a Physics teacher about 9/11... or, Remember the Maine!, or the Lusitania or the Tonkin Gulf Incident.)
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:20 pm Yes, I take for granted that in a webpage about the invasion of Ukraine if I mention "Iraq" and "Panama", everybody around here is going to get the reference.

I am not surprise about your whitewashing of "selected" killings. We create and support dictatorships, using the word "dictator" is a lame excuse and blatant hypocrisy too, we don't invade every dictatorship, we don't support every democracy; changing interests, that's all.

USSR invaded Afghanistan to avoid a 9/11, see how easy it is? Invasion justified, all the killing, justified.


(And, not trying to start a different thread, I will recommend you to talk to a Physics teacher about 9/11... or, Remember the Maine!, or the Lusitania or the Tonkin Gulf Incident.)
I still don't know if you are talking about the initial construction of the Panama Canal, or the invasion to oust Noriega.

We must agree to disagree about "whitewashing 'selected' killings."

Who is this "we" that we are talking about? Do you "create and support" dictatorships?

If by "we" you mean the United States, then yes, your point is valid as applied to recent (twentieth and twenty-first century) history. U.S. policy has often been guided by national self-interest as opposed to a commitment to support democracy. Something that I have personally been critical of for decades, so on that point you are preaching to the choir.

"Dictator." So, in your world there is no such thing as "dictators." Or, perhaps no such thing as democracy? Or perhaps you are just not interested in personally supporting one over the other/

Again, grounds for agreeing to disagree.

Easy to justify invasion?

Were there really terrorists operating in Afghanistan at the time of Russia's invasion that posed an actual threat to Russia?

Are you denying that Al Qaeda was operating out of Afghanistan when the events of 9/11 occurred? Or, that it sponsored those attacks?

Easy to justify an invasion?

...and just who is invading who in the Ukraine?

I am not getting or understanding your reference to "talking to a Physics" teacher. Perhaps you would care to elaborate. (In a different thread if appropriate).
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

I still don't know if you are talking about the initial construction of the Panama Canal, or the invasion to oust Noriega.
The invasion was not to oust Noriega.
We, Western Democracies, did invade the Suez canal -UK, France and Israel in this case- for democracy? No, it was business.
We, will support every dictator that is good for business. It is not about my personal opinion, it is about what we do.
Were there really terrorists operating in Afghanistan at the time of Russia's invasion that posed an actual threat to Russia?
Did you copy that from the US Department of State?, because it looks exactly like the language they use to justify their "selected killings"; what they graciously tell us, I mean.
Could you have verified your own statement?, could you have verified the WMD? We invade a country and we kill people. That quote is your justification, why does any other country has to use yours?


But you got the Maine, the Lusitania and the Tonkin Gulf Incident, right?
Talking to an engineer, a bit more of Physics than a High School teacher, he couldn't explain how a building is going to collapse upon itself at free fall speed (+1") and he was talking about the one untouched by a plane; not that it makes much of a difference. Anyway, the Maine was sunk by Spain, for many, many a year and the Pentagon Papers clearly show how honest governments are, sorry, democracies.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by erowind »

funkervogt wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:59 pm
There should be no illusions of either state, their respective allies, nor their organized militaries being innocent, valiant, justified, etc.
That said, we should still help Ukraine and hope they win.
No, I’m not going to argue with you but I’m just responding so people don’t draw that conclusion from my words. No one wins if either country “wins.” The only positive outcome is a cross culture anti-war movement on both sides that ends the fighting and dismantles both governments as both governments are hellbent on sending their own people into meat grinders and run by oligarchs. And that goes for our own awful country too.
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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

By the way...

It seems that the Ukrainian Offensive was taken Lozove at the end of May and taking Davydid Brid at the end of July. I am guessing that in another couple of months they will take... Sevastopol.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:30 pm
I still don't know if you are talking about the initial construction of the Panama Canal, or the invasion to oust Noriega.
The invasion was not to oust Noriega.
We, Western Democracies, did invade the Suez canal -UK, France and Israel in this case- for democracy? No, it was business.
We, will support every dictator that is good for business. It is not about my personal opinion, it is about what we do.
Were there really terrorists operating in Afghanistan at the time of Russia's invasion that posed an actual threat to Russia?
Did you copy that from the US Department of State?, because it looks exactly like the language they use to justify their "selected killings"; what they graciously tell us, I mean.
Could you have verified your own statement?, could you have verified the WMD? We invade a country and we kill people. That quote is your justification, why does any other country has to use yours?


But you got the Maine, the Lusitania and the Tonkin Gulf Incident, right?
Talking to an engineer, a bit more of Physics than a High School teacher, he couldn't explain how a building is going to collapse upon itself at free fall speed (+1") and he was talking about the one untouched by a plane; not that it makes much of a difference. Anyway, the Maine was sunk by Spain, for many, many a year and the Pentagon Papers clearly show how honest governments are, sorry, democracies.
Thank you for your points of clarification regarding Panama.

Did I copy that from the State Department?

Are you serious? It was a question. Since when does a question have to be "verified."

Ummm...yes, I did ask that question. Verification complete.

Or are you arguing that Al Qaeda was not involved in the events of 9/11? In which case, you are so deep into the territory of conspiracy theories that there is really no point in further discussing the matter with each other. As in what planet are you living on, sir.?

Ok, the Maine was (not) sunk by Spain, and the Pentagon papers clearly did show how governments lie, or otherwise misrepresent the truth. Is that a reason to embrace every Tom, Dick and Harry of a conspiracy theory that comes along?

I suppose next you will be explaining how it is really aliens from another planet that are controlling it all. Get real.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Are you serious? It was a question. Since when does a question have to be "verified."
You are missing the point... and I am not surprised you din't mention the WMD, can you verify the justification for any killing committed by any democracy? We we will give the justification we want for whatever we do and that justification is valid for us.
We carry out "covert operations", terrorist attacks; we carry out "selected killings" even if we don't use death squads, what is the difference between that and what a terrorist group or a dictator does, honesty?


I am not arguing anything... I am asking you to talk to a Physics teacher. I am saying that we -this one only you and me- know that it worked before... the conclusions, all yours.
On the other hand, your tiptoeing around what democracies do, gets you really, really close to our Russian friend and the Tooth Fairy. What it was, "Get real"?
Vakanai
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by Vakanai »

ibm9000 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:17 am
Are you serious? It was a question. Since when does a question have to be "verified."
You are missing the point... and I am not surprised you din't mention the WMD, can you verify the justification for any killing committed by any democracy? We we will give the justification we want for whatever we do and that justification is valid for us.
We carry out "covert operations", terrorist attacks; we carry out "selected killings" even if we don't use death squads, what is the difference between that and what a terrorist group or a dictator does, honesty?


I am not arguing anything... I am asking you to talk to a Physics teacher. I am saying that we -this one only you and me- know that it worked before... the conclusions, all yours.
On the other hand, your tiptoeing around what democracies do, gets you really, really close to our Russian friend and the Tooth Fairy. What it was, "Get real"?
You're arguing basically that because America has done something, we can't complain when other countries do similar. This is ignoring the fact that many of us, including many Americans, complain when America does it too. I'm straight up going to say that we never should have gone into Iraq and that the American people were lied to about WMDs to get us to accept our invasion of that country. So when I say that Russia should never have invaded Iraq and that Putin's lying to his people to get them behind this invasion, there's no hypocrisy in it despite me being American because I admit our country was in the wrong and should have never done that either.

That's the point. It doesn't matter what country does what, when any country does evil crap like this it should always be called out. And right now Russia is doing some evil crap.
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