Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Poverty is going way up.
You forgot to mention that the riches of the -disgustingly- rich is going way up too.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:00 pm
The U.S. will provide an additional $1.1 billion...
This looks like Vietnam, after one more victory... we need more, of everything.
The U.S. "lost" in Vietnam.

The weapons in question are like ammunition. It needs to be replenished to keep fighting effectively (or other tactics are needed.)

No conclusions as to who really is winning, but it does appear that Putin is using increasingly desperate tactics. That, for a needless war that he started. Also see my most recent post in the Russia Watch Thread.
Don't mourn, organize.

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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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So, when the USSR invaded Afghanistan
No, that was to fight "terrorism". You know, Wahhabism and all that.

Sorry, you cannot be a "capitalist oligarchy" with a "flawed democratic system"?

"See above regarding Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan"
I would say that is what somebody before called "sphere of influence", something like South and Central America; its backyard, (Cuba?).

"Thus equating"
Sorry, again, I cannot see the "equation"

"I have actually never heard that argument".
I did, but I don't know how well argued it has been.

"Censored speech and censored press"
Self-censored?, if the results are the same... the same WMD?

"Extrajudicial killings"
You only mean of American in US, right? One person died in the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, the sinking by an act of a Democracy we could say, how do we call that?, but nothing like that ever happened in US. (The A.I.M. may disagree).

"IMHO the differences are still stark and dramatic"
I have been to Russia, but not living in Russia. No, at our -common peasants- level no.

"U.S supports the first use of nuclear weapons"
Yes, it does. D. Rumsfeld made that clear.

"western governments and the Russian government are manufacturing consent for nuclear war"
And I completely disagree with that. More politics, threats, coercion, bribes...

"Putin is most certainly"
And that.

"especially for Ukraine"
Being killed the second is so much fun...

"leaving out the legitimate wishes of Ukrainians"
You mean of "the citizens of every country", forever?
Also, I cannot but notice the "legitimate", who decides that?

"will not end until we abolish the capitalist state."
I think you have to eliminate humans from the equation, we are always going to fail (or to do it again), 5.000 years of civilisation and here we go. I am a bit disappointed, all this just to reach a very old conclusion... and one a bit too simple for my liking.
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ibm9000
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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The U.S. "lost"
What do you mean by those " " ?
That was a war they could have never won and the US Government knew that.

You mean the joke? "You put all the South Vietnamese in boats and you move them to the middle of the China Sea, then you bomb North Vietnam until they are in the Stone Age, and then you sink the boats".
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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The weapons in question...
No, they (HIMARS) are weapons, they use ammunition. $1.1, we have no idea what they are supplying but if they stop, there is no war anymore.
Yes, a war needs ammo and a lot, and a lot of other things that Ukraine doesn't have and cannot build. I don't have any statistics about Ukrainian production of war equipment (and equipment in general), nor about how much of that production capability Russia has destroyed or is going to, but Russia is -not right now, I am pretty sure- the second weapons supplier in the world.

Something I mention before about a sustained air campaign, destroying all infrastructure, even every single petrol station. That, is not going to win the war -Vietnam-, but it's going to make things a lot harder for Ukraine and disperse resources.

Ukraine lost -no ""- 120.000 km2, that would be a creative form of winning.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:58 pm "will not end until we abolish the capitalist state."
I think you have to eliminate humans from the equation, we are always going to fail (or to do it again), 5.000 years of civilisation and here we go. I am a bit disappointed, all this just to reach a very old conclusion... and one a bit too simple for my liking.
Can I ask what conclusion you are referring to?
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:58 pm
So, when the USSR invaded Afghanistan
No, that was to fight "terrorism". You know, Wahhabism and all that.
...and of course the U.S. must never be allowed to use that excuse. So, when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, it was an "act of imperialism." But when the USSR invaded, it was in support of "local revolutionaries", which you have relabeled "terrosists."
Sorry, you cannot be a "capitalist oligarchy" with a "flawed democratic system"?
I suppose when you out it that way. Still, I was responding to another individual who may, or may not, agree with your description.
"See above regarding Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan"
I would say that is what somebody before called "sphere of influence", something like South and Central America; its backyard, (Cuba?).
A reasonable observation.
"Thus equating"
Sorry, again, I cannot see the "equation"
Well, I can't be held responsible for your lack of vision. :D
"I have actually never heard that argument".
I did, but I don't know how well argued it has been.
No need for a further response from me on that point.
"Censored speech and censored press"
Self-censored?, if the results are the same... the same WMD?
Self-censored as in being sure that your facts are correct is a good thing. Especially, to avoid the victimization of an innocent person. I thought that you were a person who advised skepticism in reviewing news sources.
"Extrajudicial killings"
You only mean of American in US, right? One person died in the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, the sinking by an act of a Democracy we could say, how do we call that?, but nothing like that ever happened in US. (The A.I.M. may disagree).
Yes, I was responding to a comment about conditions in the United States. That is not to necessarily argue for concluding that the United State is an exceptionalist nation.

Good question regarding the "sinking of the Rainbow Warrior. Feel free to give me your answer.
"IMHO the differences are still stark and dramatic"
I have been to Russia, but not living in Russia. No, at our -common peasants- level no.
What about at the middle-class level? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have always had the impression that the United States has a more sizable middle class (proportionally speaking). And no, I am not trying to suggest that it is therefore justifiable to keep "our peasants" in poverty.
"U.S supports the first use of nuclear weapons"
Yes, it does. D. Rumsfeld made that clear.
Rumsfeld is a retired old fart. I was speaking of the current administration, and in the context of the situation in the Ukraine.
"western governments and the Russian government are manufacturing consent for nuclear war"
And I completely disagree with that. More politics, threats, coercion, bribes...
I hope it is obvious that I hope that you are right. Time will tell.
"Putin is most certainly"
And that.
See above.
"especially for Ukraine"
Being killed the second is so much fun...
I trust that you are being sarcastic here. My point was to imply that the situation may go nuclear, but still be contained. Something for which Putin may actually be hoping. Again, I obviously hope that scenario does not play out (as opposed to a more desirable negotiated settlement).
"leaving out the legitimate wishes of Ukrainians"
You mean of "the citizens of every country", forever?
Also, I cannot but notice the "legitimate", who decides that?
"'Citizens of every country' forever?" That is a good question. My point was in response to a person who focused of the theme of "two imperialist countries clashing with each other."

"Legitimate" is a somewhat technical term used in political science. One might say that a government that is "manufacturing consent' is concerned with its "legitimacy", especially in the eyes of its own people. Still, it can also mean in the eyes of the international community.
"will not end until we abolish the capitalist state."[/quote}
I think you have to eliminate humans from the equation, we are always going to fail (or to do it again), 5.000 years of civilisation and here we go. I am a bit disappointed, all this just to reach a very old conclusion... and one a bit too simple for my liking.
Here you are quoting another person, so I will let your comment stand without further comment.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:05 pm
The U.S. "lost"
What do you mean by those " " ?
That was a war they could have never won and the US Government knew that.

You mean the joke? "You put all the South Vietnamese in boats and you move them to the middle of the China Sea, then you bomb North Vietnam until they are in the Stone Age, and then you sink the boats".
I think that initially Pentagon planners had a different conclusion in mind. One in which a puppet government woukd have prevailed in both the north and the south. A reason that I to this day regard as coming from a place of moral bankruptcy.

I put "lost" in quotations because Vietnam ultimately morphed into a society willing to carry on trade relations with other countries, including "capitalist" and "democratic" countries, etc.
Don't mourn, organize.

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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:28 pm
The weapons in question...
No, they (HIMARS) are weapons, they use ammunition.
Yes, my bad if I did not make that clear.
$1.1, we have no idea what they are supplying but if they stop, there is no war anymore.
No, there may still be a war. However, folks like Certain Russian would then start complaining about "terrorists." Even the U.S. Civil War could have gone that route had Robert E. Lee not decided to "surrender." Some argue that the civil war never really ended.
Yes, a war needs ammo and a lot, and a lot of other things that Ukraine doesn't have and cannot build. I don't have any statistics about Ukrainian production of war equipment (and equipment in general), nor about how much of that production capability Russia has destroyed or is going to, but Russia is -not right now, I am pretty sure- the second weapons supplier in the world.
Well, they are certainly supplying a lot of weapons to Ukraine. These are the problems a country encounters when it loses a good percent of its top brass in the field and is governed by incompetent political leaders who fail to keep up the morale of its troops. Under those conditions, a prolonged guerilla war is quite possible. See also above.
Something I mention before about a sustained air campaign, destroying all infrastructure, even every single petrol station. That, is not going to win the war -Vietnam-, but it's going to make things a lot harder for Ukraine and disperse resources.
Agreed. HIMARS are also important because they are high precision weapons that can also destroy infrastructure, ammo dumps, etc.
Ukraine lost -no ""- 120.000 km2, that would be a creative form of winning.
No further comment needed from me here.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ººº wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:33 pm
ibm9000 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:58 pm "will not end until we abolish the capitalist state."
I think you have to eliminate humans from the equation, we are always going to fail (or to do it again), 5.000 years of civilisation and here we go. I am a bit disappointed, all this just to reach a very old conclusion... and one a bit too simple for my liking.
Can I ask what conclusion you are referring to?
I believe he is referring to a conclusion made my Erowin earlier in the thread which IBM900 puts in quotation marks. Either of those two can correct me if I am wrong.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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