Overshoot

Talk about scientific and technological developments in the future
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MythOfProgress
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Overshoot

Post by MythOfProgress »


came across this a while back- alan urban pretty much laid all of this out in a better more efficient way of explaining the current situation we're in.

the only part i disagree with, is probably in the last section(What now?) in terms of how Alan describes white people as being part of the "others'(a term or process used by fascists in an attempt to dehumanize anyone who isn't like them).

while i dont doubt white folks are just as susceptible to harm- white supremacy is still very much alive in our societies and its ramifications to anyone in the global south(or just different ethnicity from the "white" standard), in fact there's a pretty good chance that the eco-fascists folks tend to mischaracterize me or other malthusians as- will most likely be the white supremacists who acknowledge the environmental predicament we're in and use it as a stepping stone for eliminating/suppressing the "undesirables" of our population as described in the last section and being anti-immigrant as people try to leave their homes for better pastures.

if you're a white person-last thing you're going to be discriminated against is the difference in melanin(at least on a systematic scale, individually speaking is another story- but even then the "racism" expressed is usually built on a good foundation as a response to the injustice of white supremacy- its just taken too far however.) to those who ran out of member stories-here's the text:
I have some bad news. Civilization is going to collapse. Not in 1000 years, not in 100 years, but within the lifetimes of most people alive today.

It doesn’t necessarily mean humans will go extinct, but at the very least, billions of people are going to die from disease, violence, starvation, dehydration, natural disasters, and war.

How do I know this? Because it has already begun.

Our global industrial civilization has been headed for collapse for at least 50 years. That’s how long ago the human population went into overshoot, a concept that is crucial to understand if you’re going to make sense of the horrors that await us in the 21st century.

What is Overshoot?

Ecological overshoot happens when the demands of a species exceed the regenerative capacity of the ecosystem. As the species multiplies, it consumes the ecosystem faster and faster, and the population skyrockets. Once there is nothing left to eat, the population collapses.

This is the meta-problem of our time. When people talk about problems the world is facing, they usually focus on climate change or biodiversity loss or the threat of nuclear war, but all of these problems are merely symptoms of overshoot. And yet, most leaders and politicians have never even heard of it.

To help you understand, let’s take a look at a classic example of overshoot that occurred on an island off the coast of Alaska.
The St. Matthew Island Reindeer Herd

St. Matthew Island is 128 square miles of tundra in the middle of the Bering Sea, over 200 miles from the nearest Alaskan village. It is said to be the most remote place in Alaska.

Prior to World War II, it was unoccupied. Then in 1944, the Coast Guard installed a loran (long range aids to navigation) and put 19 men on the island to operate the station. In order to make sure the men had a backup food source, the Coast Guard released 29 reindeer onto the island.

For the reindeer, it was heaven. There were no predators, there was grass everywhere, and the tree trunks were covered with lichen, which is like candy to reindeer.

When World War II began drawing to a close, the men were pulled from the island and the reindeer were left behind. Over the next decade, they began breeding prolifically.

Thirteen years later in 1957, Dave Klein, a biologist working for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, visited St. Matthew Island. He and his assistant counted about 1,350 reindeer, all of which appeared to be very well-fed. With mats of lichen several inches thick, the island had plenty of food for the population of reindeer to grow exponentially.

In 1963, Klein returned to the island with three other scientists. As soon as they arrived, they saw reindeer everywhere. Incredibly, they counted 6,000 reindeer. However, the deer did not appear to be as fat and healthy as before, and the land showed signs of overgrazing.

He returned again in 1966, and what he found was horrifying. The island was covered with deer skeletons, and there were only 42 living deer left, all of which were emaciated. This means the population had plummeted by 99% in just a few years.

Image

So why did this happen? Most people are perplexed when they hear this story. Why didn’t the reindeer population grow to the island’s carrying capacity, then level off?

The answer is overshoot. Most people would assume that if there were 6,000 deer living on an island, then the carrying capacity must be somewhere above 6,000. In reality, the carrying capacity was probably more like 1,000 or 2,000. The deer population grew faster than the local flora could regenerate.

So why did the population of deer grow so quickly? Because of exponential growth. People have a tendency to think of growth as steady and linear, but life doesn’t grow that way. As long as there are no limiting factors like predators, diseases, or lack of food, a population of animals will keep doubling until something stops it.

In the case of St. Matthew Island, the deer population doubled every 2–3 years until 1960 or so, when growth began to slow down. Finally, once 99% of the food was gone, there was a mass die-off, leaving only 42 surviving reindeer. (There’s a great comic by Stuart McMillen that tells this story. You can read it here.)

And that is not the only time this has happened to a herd of reindeer. Similar incidents occurred on St. Paul Island near Alaska and on the Kaibab Plateau in Arizona.

Now take a look at the human population since the advent of agriculture, and ask yourself, “What is going to happen next?”
Image
The Population Bomb

Prior to 10,000 BCE, humans were hunter-gatherers, and with that lifestyle, they had already reached the carrying capacity of the planet. Back then, temperatures varied wildly, going up and down by several degrees Celsius from one millennium to the next.

Then something amazing happened: Earth’s climate became incredibly stable, and for the next 12,000 years, all the way up until the 20th century, the average global temperature stayed within a range of less than 1 degree Celsius. This era is known as the Holocene.

Thanks to this stable new area, the weather became much more predictable. Instead of alternating periods of drought and flooding, farmers could now expect about the same amount of rainfall every year. This allowed farms to expand rapidly, drastically increasing the local carrying capacity for humans.

Slowly but surely, the human population began to grow (about 0.04% per year). However, there were still limiting factors that kept growth in check. Things like wars and diseases.

Regardless, the population kept growing, and by the 1700s, growth was beginning to go exponential. Humans came up with new inventions such as the water frame and the steam engine, which allowed them to produce more goods. By the 1800s, even more inventions came along such as electric generators and incandescent lamps.

The most important thing about these inventions is that they allowed people to harness more energy. More energy means more stuff and more food. As people’s standard of living improved, they were able to have more children, causing the population to grow even faster.

Until the late 1800s, the primary sources of energy were wood, coal, and whale oil. But with the discovery of oil fields all across America in the early 1900s, everything changed. Oil was much more adaptable and flexible, and it had twice the energy-density of coal. Plus, it was much easier to get it out of the ground.

With all this new energy, living standards and populations grew even faster. Suddenly, people were inventing automobiles, radios, airplanes, and televisions. It seemed as though there was enough energy to last forever.

However, there were some who warned that the age of abundance would not last forever. In 1968, Paul Ehrlich and his wife Anne Ehrlich, both biologists, wrote a book called The Population Bomb. It warned that before long, overpopulation would lead to worldwide famine. This seemed plausible as most of the world’s best farmland was already being used, and the population growth rate had skyrocketed to over 2% per year.

Early editions of the book began with the following statement:

“The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate.”

Of course, Ehrlich turned out to be wrong, and the population grew from only 3.5 billion back then to over 8 billion today.

So does that mean we can all relax and stop worrying about overpopulation? Hardly. Ehrlich was wrong because he didn’t anticipate the Green Revolution, which took off in the 1970s.

Farmers began to use new chemical fertilizers such as phosphorous and ammonia (which is derived from natural gas), and agrochemicals such as pesticides and herbicides (which are derived from oil). In addition, they began to use new types of farming equipment that mechanized cultivation and harvesting.

But that’s not all. In the past, a drought meant a much lower crop yield, but new technologies allowed farmers to pump water out of deep underground aquifers. Also, scientists developed new high-yield crop varieties that never existed in nature.

One of the key scientists was Norman Borlaug, who won the Nobel Peace Price in 1970 and is credited with saving over a billion people from starvation. Without the Green Revolution, the world population probably would have peaked somewhere around 4 billion.
Overshoot and Collapse

Thanks to all these new forms of energy and technology, humans have vastly increased the carrying capacity of the planet. However, this increased carrying capacity is an illusion. William R. Catton, author of Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change, called it “phantom carrying capacity.”

Our ability to feed 8 billion people is completely dependent on fossil fuels such as oil and natural gas. Once we begin to run out of them, they will become much more expensive, which means everything else-especially food-will become much more expensive as well.
Peak Oil

Peak oil is the point at which the production (or rather, extraction) of oil peaks then goes into decline. Because there is a finite amount of oil on this planet, peak oil is going to happen eventually. The only question is when. But now, there are signs that peak oil already happened a few years ago.

Of course, oil companies continue to discover new oil fields, but they’re not discovering them fast enough to keep up with demand. In fact, new oil discoveries are at their lowest level in 75 years. Even Saudi Aramco, the world’s largest oil producer, has warned that their spare capacity is “ extremely low.

If we truly have reached peak oil, then we are in big trouble. As I explained earlier, population growth is directly tied to energy usage. Without plenty of affordable energy, we cannot continue to grow our population or even maintain it. Thus the term, “phantom carrying capacity.”
Image

There are people who say we don’t have to worry about peak oil because we are switching to new technologies like solar panels, wind turbines, and electric vehicles. However, the switch isn’t happening fast enough, and we still use fossil fuels to manufacture so-called renewables (for example, the plastic in them is made from oil).

Besides, all this green energy requires another finite resource: rare-earth metals. The great thing about oil is that all of the energy is already stored inside of it. But for renewable energy, we need to store the energy in batteries so we can drive vehicles and power our homes even when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing. And for batteries, we need metals like lithium, cobalt, and nickel.

The problem is, new research suggests that there simply aren’t enough rare-earth metals in the ground for a green energy revolution. The fact that so few people anticipated this problem boggles the mind.

Even if there were enough metals for a green revolution, we still need natural gas to keep growing food on such a large scale. This is because of the Haber-Bosch process. This scientific breakthrough gave us the ability to derive ammonia from natural gas, and the ammonia is used to create fertilizer (part of the Green Revolution mentioned above).

About 50% of the world’s food production depends on fertilizer that is created this way. There is no substitute. This is why fertilizer prices (and thus, food prices) are getting higher and higher, because natural gas has gotten so expensive. What happens when we run out?

Humans have essentially painted themselves into a corner. We have to keep using fossil fuels to maintain the population, but if we do that, eventually we will run out of fossil fuels and the population will collapse. Sure, we could produce more renewables and try to use fewer fossil fuels, but that would only delay the inevitable.

There is no way out of this mess.
Degraded Carrying Capacity

As terrifying as this information is, the situation is even worse than you think.

When a species overshoots the carrying capacity of an ecosystem, the carrying capacity is degraded. To make this more clear, let’s take another look at the reindeer on St. Matthew Island.

The deer mostly ate grass in the spring and summer, then lichen in the fall and winter. During the winter, the grass roots would remain dormant until they started growing again in the spring.

At some point, there were too many deer and not enough grass. Once the deer ate all the grass and couldn’t find anymore lichen, they dug up the grass roots and ate those as well. This got them through the winter, but it meant that less grass grew in the spring.

This is a classic example of overshoot and degraded carrying capacity. The deer overgrazed to the point where the island could support less deer than it could before they went into overshoot. Here’s a graphic that shows what I mean:
Image

In the same way that reindeer degraded the carrying capacity of St. Matthew Island, humans have degraded the carrying capacity of the planet Earth. The signs are everywhere.

Topsoil is eroding faster than it can regenerate. Since farmers began tilling soil in the Midwest in the 19th century, over 50 billion tons of topsoil has eroded.

According to the USDA, the erosion rate is double what is believed to be sustainable. Some experts believe all the topsoil will be gone in less than 60 years, after which it will be nearly impossible to grow food.

Aquifers are emptying faster than they can refill. This is very worrying since aquifers provide one-third of the planet’s drinking water and nearly half of the planet’s irrigated agriculture.

For example, the Ogallala aquifer, which stretches from South Dakota down to Texas, could be almost gone in just 20 years. After that, Midwestern farmers will be out of business. Countries around the world are facing the same problem with their own aquifers.

Forests are being cut down faster than they can regrow. Forests aren’t just for creating furniture, construction materials, and other wood products. They’re also used for energy.

In the European Union, burning trees for energy is considered renewable since trees can regrow. The problem is, they’re burning them faster than they can grow back. This is terrible for the environment as forests are needed to purify the air and water. We are literally burning down our life support system.

Fisheries are being plundered faster than they can restock. This is very bad news for the 3 billion people who rely on fish as a significant source of protein in their diets, not to mention 10% of the world population who rely on fishing for income.

So if you thought that we could make up of for the loss of good farmland and aquifers with seafood, think again. It is very possible that the oceans could be virtually empty of fish by 2048.

And of course, fossil fuels are being extracted far faster than they can replenish. It takes millions of years for sunlight to be stored in the form of fossil fuels, so for human purposes, fossil fuels are a one-time deal. Once they’re gone, that’s it. And it looks like we’ve already extracted all the “low hanging fruit.”

All this technology allowed humans to vastly increase the carrying capacity of the planet, but it is a temporary increase. Technology merely delays collapse, which ensures that once collapse arrives, it will happen much more quickly.
Earth Overshoot Day

At this point, there are two big questions we need to answer. The first one is: Have we overshot the carrying capacity of the Earth yet?

We can get a clue to the answer by looking at research done by the Global Footprint Network. Every year, they calculate the date when humans have used all the natural resources that the planet can generate that year. It’s called Earth Overshoot Day, and this year it was on July 28.

This means that for our civilization to continue functioning after July 28, it it has to draw down resources that had accumulated long before humans came along. Resources like the ones mentioned above: topsoil, aquifers, forests, fisheries, and fossil fuels. Eventually, they will all be gone.

So clearly we are already in overshoot, but how long have we been in overshoot? Take a look:
Image

As you can see, we have been in overshoot since 1971. Over 50 years ago. Back then, the global population was about 3.7 billion, which suggests that the actual carrying capacity of the planet is somewhere below 3.7 billion.

Of course, this depends on people’s lifestyles. If everyone on Earth lived like people in Bangladesh, there wouldn’t be an Earth Overshoot Day. But if everyone on Earth lived like people in the United States, then Earth Overshoot Day would be on March 13. However, for the purposes of this article, we’ll just look at the world population as a whole.
Limits to Growth
Overshoot and collapse go hand in hand. If we’ve overshot the carrying capacity of our planet, then collapse is inevitable.

So now there’s a second question we need to answer: How much longer until the human population collapses?

To answer this, let’s take a look at research conducted by MIT and published by the Club of Rome back in 1972. They wanted to find out how much longer industrial civilization could last before running out of essential resources. To figure this out, they looked at five factors:

Once they had this data, they developed the World3 model, a system dynamics model that uses computers to simulate interactions between these five factors in order to determine how they affect each other.

They ran several different scenarios. For example, what if we start living more sustainably? What if we find new ways to increase the planet’s carrying capacity? And what if we don’t do anything and just continue business as usual?

According the business-as-usual scenario (BAU2), economic growth would peak in the 2030s, and civilization would begin to collapse around 2040. Here’s what it looks like:

Image

The researchers compiled everything they learned and published it in a book called Limits to Growth. It quickly became a bestseller, but it was also very controversial.
Politicians, economists, and business leaders bristled at the idea that economic growth could have limits, which makes sense because their jobs are to ensure fast and limitless growth in order to keep voters and investors happy. As Upton Sinclair said, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

Since this research was done 50 years ago, we can now look at data from the past five decades and see how accurate the researchers actually were. And that’s exactly what Gaya Herrington, a student at Harvard University, decided to do.

She said, “Given the unappealing prospect of collapse, I was curious to see which scenarios were aligning most closely with empirical data today. After all, the book that featured this world model was a bestseller in the 70s, and by now we’d have several decades of empirical data which would make a comparison meaningful. But to my surprise I could not find recent attempts for this. So I decided to do it myself.”

For her Masters thesis, she looked at ten factors:

1.Population
2.Fertility Rates
3.Mortality Rates
4.Industrial Output
5.Food Production
6.Services
7.Non-renewable Resources
8.Persistent Pollution
9.Human Welfare
10.Ecological Footprint
What she found was terrifying. It seems that humans have been following the business-as-usual scenario more closely than any other scenario.

Image
Of course, no study is perfect. The population could begin to go down before 2030, or it might not go down until many years after 2030. But no matter what, it seems certain that it will go down within the next few decades.

Unless you are hundreds of years old, you have never lived during a time when the global population went down. Even during terrible times like the Spanish flu or World War II, the population continued to grow. Once it starts going down, it will likely be due to a famine unlike any we’ve ever seen.
Climate Change
Earlier I said that our ability to feed 8 billion people is completely dependent on fossil fuels. However, there is something else we also need: stable weather patterns. But thanks to climate change, stable weather patterns are going away, too.

Many people see climate change as the biggest challenge of our time, but the truth is that climate change is merely a symptom of overshoot. It’s essentially a waste-management problem. Humans have been burning wood and coal for thousands of years, but the trees and oceans were always able to absorb the excess carbon dioxide.

Now, we are emitting carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases so quickly that there is no way the planet can absorb it all. The oceans have absorbed most of it, but that has caused them to become more acidic, leading to the destruction of coral reefs. Forests used to absorb a lot of it, but they are being cut down so quickly that they now act as a carbon source instead of a carbon sink.

Despite nearly 30 years of COP summits and pledges by nations to slash emissions, things are worse than ever. In fact, in the 34 years since scientists first testified to Congress about the dangers of global warming (paywalled,will find another link for this one), we have emitted more greenhouse gasses than in all of history before that.
Image

As a result of all these greenhouses gases floating around, more and more heat from the sun will be trapped in the atmosphere, and temperatures will rise-not just linearly, but exponentially.

The world has already warmed by about 1.2°C since the late 1800s (before the oil boom), but half of that warming has happened in the last 30 years. That means the average global temperature increase doubled in the last 30 years, and it looks as though it will double again in the next 30 years. Classic exponential growth.

Many people say that climate change is a natural process, and they’re right. As I mentioned above, climate change has been occurring ever since the Earth formed. However, except for times when the Earth was struck by asteroids, it has never changed anywhere near this quickly.

The last 7 years were also the 7 warmest years in recorded history. Just look at how fast temperatures are rising:
Image

This is not normal. Humans have impacted the environment so severely that according to many scientists, the Holocene epoch is over and we are entering a new epoch know as the Anthropocene.

What can we expect in the Anthropocene? Well, given that we are already seeing record-breaking droughts,floods, heat waves, and biodiversity loss at 1.2°C of warming, we can only imagine how bad things will be when the temperature increase doubles again over the next 30 years.
Accelerating Collapse
Even if there were no such thing as climate change, we would still be headed for collapse in the next few decades. But unfortunately, climate change is very real, and it will only accelerate the collapse.

A great example is what has happened to the aquifers mentioned above. We are rapidly using up all of our groundwater, but we wouldn’t have to if it weren’t for drought. Currently, countries all over the world are experiencing some of their worst droughts in centuries, something climate scientists have been predicting for decades.

Thanks to drought, crop yields all around the world are beginning to decline. Floods are also causing problems for farmers. Recently, half of Pakistan’s breadbasket was wiped out by the worst flood in over 70 years. We can expect similar disasters in other breadbaskets around the world.

Another great example is what’s happening to ocean life. Recently, snow crab season was cancelled for the first time in history due to the disappearance of billions of snow crabs.

The most likely explanation is warming oceans. Snow crabs hatch in extremely cold water, but since the Bering sea has been warmer than usual lately, it is possible that the warmer waters made the snow crabs more susceptible to diseases and predators. We were already overfishing in the Bering sea, and now climate change has made the problem even worse.

Extreme weather doesn’t just affect crop yields and fisheries, it also affects supply chains. Possibly the most important part of the United States supply chain is the Mississippi river, and right now it is at a record low.

As a result, the water is too low for most barges to traverse, and at least 2000 of them are backed up. As Mike Ellis, CEO of American Commercial Barge Line, said, “America is going to shut down if we shut down.”

All this is happening while the global population continues to grow. This is unsustainable, to put it mildly. Climate change not only accelerates collapse, it magnifies the consequences of collapse.

How Did We Get Here?

Most people refuse to believe that our civilization is unsustainable and headed for collapse in the near future. There are people who have been presented with all the facts mentioned in this article who still refuse to accept the truth.

But why? There are many possibilities, but I think a big one is cultural conditioning. Ever since we were born, we were all taught by the media that technology is a good thing. They say technology is progress, and the more technology we have, the freer and happier society will be. Like in Star Trek.

So when you tell people that actually, technology is destroying the planet and leading us toward collapse, they find it impossible to believe. They’ll even say that what we need now is more technology. But unfortunately, we can’t solve our problems with the same methods that got us into this predicament.

There are countless peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that we are in overshoot right nowand that we are headed for a hunter-gatherer future. These studies are based on empirical data and basic math, yet many environmentalists refuse to believe it. They say growth is fine, we just need to switch to “green growth.”

But it’s not just cultural conditioning that does this to people; it’s also fear. When I first realized that society will probably collapse in my lifetime, I tried really hard to convince myself that it wasn’t true. I started learning about techno fixes, green energy, and sustainable growth. It took me a long time before I finally realized that sustainable growth is an oxymoron.

Ever since the Limits to Growth study back in 1972, it has been clear that our global civilization would collapse someday, but few people believed it. Only now that resource depletion and climate disasters are becoming such obvious problems are people finally starting to wake up.
What now?
As more and more people wake up to the reality of collapse, it is absolutely crucial that we help them understand why collapse is happening.

The entire history of humans throughout the Holocene is characterized by overshoot and collapse. When societies exceeded the carrying capacities of their ecosystems, they usually either went to war with neighboring societies or devolved into civil war.

My fear is that when the economy collapses and things start to get really bad, people will blame others. The others could be anybody: Jews, immigrants, white people, minorities, fascists, socialists, the patriarchy, the “woke mob”, or other nations such as Russia or China.

We must understand that collapse is not the fault of some malignant “other.” Collapse is the inevitable result of overshoot, and overshoot is everybody’s fault. Yes, some people are more to blame than others, but unless you’ve lived your entire life off-the-grid and self-sufficient, you too have contributed to overshoot.

We need to stop blaming each other and start working together. We need to create a culture based on sustainability instead of consumption, a culture where we care more about leaving things to our children than acquiring things for ourselves. We need to eliminate the idea that humans are separate from nature and remember that we are all part of nature.

Until we do these things, I fear that we will only make our predicament worse. I’ll close with a quote from William Catton, author of Overshoot: The Ecological Basis of Revolutionary Change:

“I have tried to show the real nature of humanity’s predicament, not because understanding its nature will enable us to escape it, but because if we do not understand it, we shall continue to act and react in ways that make it worse.”
R.I.P Ziba.
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Ken_J
Posts: 241
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Re: Overshoot

Post by Ken_J »

that feels a might bit like Malthus all over again. and the gaps in his models were big enough to fit a world of billions more through.

I'm not sure we are going in for a rude encounter with the great filter, but the chances are also not zero. And given dipsticks in charge of piloting our future sure don't seem to be the kind that could figure out how and when to work toward paradigm shifts that will open gaps in the latest iteration of the Malthusian catastrophe.

off the top of my head the model of overshoot seems to be based largely on usage of numbers for how many trees we would need to plant to offset what we do on earth. there are plenty of other plants that are way better for the purposes of offset. and the shift over to rewilding while food production shifts to methods way more efficient in water, nutrients, and space used; would be a huge cut out of the burden we have on the earth. switching power over to nuclear and 'renewables'. water desalination technologies, materials sciences. there's a lot of opportunity to change the paradigm.

It's not hard to imagine a future in which a family of four on a 1/4 acre of land can grow all the food they need, harvest renewable energy for household needs, recycle the same cistern of 100 gallons of water, produce zero (or near zero) waste matter, etc. that would be everybody on earth taking up about 1/3 the land the size of the entire USA. but spread out across the world.

if or when we manage to do that it will also mean moving closer to a point where we can create off world colonies too, so not only is there a drive to make sustainable paths forward for earth but making sustainable bubble modules that we can seed across the space we can reach. and that comes with the bonus of thinning the burden of humanity on earth, but also opening the bubble of earth to importing things from off world to increase the supply side of the supply and demand equation.
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erowind
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Re: Overshoot

Post by erowind »

It feels like Malthus because it is Malthus. Catton wasn't an ecologist and his concept of overshoot is not scientifically sound. He openly admits to admiring Malthus.

From the horses mouth.

Malthus: More Relevant Than Ever

https://npg.org/forum_series/MalthusMoreRevelant008.pdf

And a vastly different perspective from an ecologist not a sociologist.

A Retrospective Re-review of William Catton's Overshoot

https://a2008174.wixsite.com/erlkinggod ... -overshoot

To quote the ecologist writing the above article.
Humans are not the reindeer in the St Matthew Island scenario, abandoned on an island by a mysterious force outside of our control. We’re the humans who brought them there. We’re not cattle penned in a pasture, mindlessly eating and drinking everything in sight. We’re the range managers drilling wells and planting hay. Through the cultural evolution and accumulation of knowledge, we are the force that provides, and in a meaningful sense creates, our resources.

To see humanity this way dramatically reframes the task ahead of us. Where Catton argued that the least-worst option available to humanity was to reduce our consumption and population intentionally, to soften the inevitable crash, the truth is that the crash is not inevitable at all. Unlike the St Matthew Island reindeer, human population growth has slowed and nearly stopped even though the amount of resources available to each individual is still growing.

It’s still possible that humanity will drive itself extinct, as we’ve already tragically done to many other species. But if that happens, it won’t be because we were always doomed to “run out of resources.” It will be because we failed to reach solutions to environmental and technological problems that were within our grasp the whole time.
In other words, our resource problems and our ecological problems are caused by how we as a culture are choosing to interact with those resources and that ecosystem. We can relate differently, and I'd argue we will become more pressured to by ecosystem collapse and thus more likely to overtime. Unlike every other species on the planet we have the ability to intentionally adapt and not just become net-neutral on our impact but net-positive. Permaculture is highly productive, resistant to all forms of natural disaster and increases biodiversity compared to every other form of human land use. Havana as a city produces over half of its food consumption in urban gardens and farms despite Cuba's ongoing resource shortages and progression into a post-industrial economy. This is only scratching the surface of things we could be doing to have a regenerative ecological relationship with the Earth.

This is what our future is likely to look like in most places in the coming centuries. Not death by any means.

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caltrek
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Re: Overshoot

Post by caltrek »

There is too much information here for me to readily make a point-by-point review. A couple of things about which I would have liked to have seen more discussion:
  • Fracking and the extent to which this fairly new technology has increase the potential level of fossil fuel production
  • What a shift to a plant-based diet by large numbers of people would do to estimates of what level of population is sustainable.
On that second point, moving down the food chain away from meat, fish, and dairy consumption means a more efficient use of potential food supply.
Instead of feeding animals, poultry, and fish, humans can be fed directly. Some may object that there would be a problem of sufficient protein intake. A reading of T. Colin Campbell's The China Study and The Future of Nutrition has convinced me that the need for protein in our diets is overstated. At least if you are relying on suggested minimum level as established by U.S. government agencies. Sufficient protein intake can thus be obtained from plants.
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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caltrek
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Re: Overshoot

Post by caltrek »

I have a few more comments on the narrow subject of a potential shortage of food, upon which broader conclusions seem to be reached concerning “overshoot." This prompted me to do a quick review of The Future of Food, Aquaculture, and Agriculture thread. From that thread, I was reminded of many fronts upon which sustainable increased food production is proceeding: These include:

1. Increased aquaculture production:
The research projects that global demand for blue foods will roughly double by 2050 and will be met primarily through increased aquaculture production rather than by capture fisheries.

https://www.futurity.org/blue-foods-aqu ... 628512-2/

2. Urban farming:

Britain could grow up to eight times its current production of fruit and vegetables if all available urban and under-used green space were turned to cultivation
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/j ... en-spaces

Also concerning urban farming:
https://news.agu.org/press-release/urba ... -farming/

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 2EF002748

3. Research progress that may result in enhanced yield for:

Chickpeas: https://www.futurity.org/chickpeas-art ... s-2656432/

Corn: https://www.futurity.org/corn-teosinte- ... 2691252-2/

Potatoes: https://www.mpg.de/18386613/potato-geno ... 1CKiooZpo

Maize and Rice: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci ... s/953827
https://www.inverse.com/innovation/gmo-rice-china https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/964666
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/980975 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/987202

Wheat https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/960892 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/966824

4. Alternative foods to what are currently consumed, such as:

Micro-organisms:
Enough protein to feed the entire world could be produced on an area of land smaller than London if we replace animal farming with factories producing micro-organisms, a campaign has said.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions

Microalgae:
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/976803

Insects:
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/977111
The old forum contained many citations regarding development of insects as a potential food source.

5. Better soil management practices:
https://www.futurity.org/soil-regenerat ... -2706862/


One problematic trend that if reversed could help the situation are the “competing uses (for farmland that) include making biofuels; converting crops into processing ingredients, such as livestock meal, hydrogenated oils and starches; and selling them on global markets to countries that can afford to pay for them.”

Source: https://theconversation.com/a-shrinking ... es-181819

Another factor that needs to be looked at:
Food waste is a $2.6 trillion problem globally as some 40% of food is wasted annually.

Sources: https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/17/full- ... ood-waste/
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2289 ... al-welfare

Of course, I could have easily reviewed the of The Future of Food, Aquaculture, and Agriculture thread and selected only bad news items that would make the case for overshoot. My point is the overall complexity of it all. There are so many positive trends versus so many negative trends that I hesitate to come to any sort of definitive conclusion.

It seems to me that the biggest negative factor is the overall detrimental effect of global climate change. This greatly complicates the idea of relying on the positive developments and factors that I have cited. Global climate change genuinely worries me as to its potential for destruction of civilization. While effects on food production are the biggest concern, there is also the problem of extreme weather events, flooding in some places and at some times, and droughts in other places and at other times, unfavorable impacts upon the spread of disease, etc.

Adding that into the mix, and I can only conclude that, for me at least, the future cannot be foretold, and nothing is inevitable.
Last edited by caltrek on Tue May 09, 2023 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken_J
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Re: Overshoot

Post by Ken_J »

caltrek wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 5:19 pm There is too much information here for me to readily make a point-by-point review. A couple of things about which I would have liked to have seen more discussion:
  • Fracking and the extent to which this fairly new technology has increase the potential level of fossil fuel production
  • What a shift to a plant-based diet by large numbers of people would do to estimates of what level of population is sustainable.
On that second point, moving down the food chain away from meat, fish, and dairy consumption means a more efficient use of potential food supply.
Instead of feeding animals, poultry, and fish, humans can be fed directly. Some may object that there would be a problem of sufficient protein intake. A reading of T. Colin Campbell's The China Study and The Future of Nutrition has convinced me that the need for protein in our diets is overstated. At least if you are relying on suggested minimum level as established by U.S. government agencies. Sufficient protein intake can thus be obtained from plants.
the problem with plant based diets isn't that the protein isn't there, that argument is a bit like the package of sweets that declare themselves fat free when the fat content was never what made them unhealthy in the first place.
Humans need dietary sources of both micro and macro nutrients within specific ranges that quite frankly are not easily achieved in any extreme dietary regime. we need certain B vitamins that do not occur in plant based diets. and while you can get plenty of protein from grains like wheat (I've made Seitan by hand) plant based diets high enough in the harder to get nutrients often have a massive over supply of others that can lead to health problems of their own (Purine and gout are a good example), and an over correction away from fats toward carbohydrates in the diet has resulted in increases in diabetes while messing up the fat assortments our food supplies and that our bodies need. Additionally there is still a lot of misinformation on the ground level about what foods effect what metabolic and physiological processes (like does dietary cholesterol effect blood cholesterol more or less than glycemic index? or how does carb and fat together effect the biological effects of the diet?).
In the end the truth is likely everything is a little bad for you, and a lot of people with bias see the bad in the other way from their own, and doubt or dismiss the issues in their own path.
But the world needs animals that are eaten in the food chain, they fill ecological niches, and they serve environmental and nutritional roles in the world. and there are ways to include them in sustainability. https://clear.ucdavis.edu/blog/what-if- ... ating-meat

the 'go vegan for the earth' people remind me of the folks who pushed for stopping paper bags for grocery stores, to save the trees. Now we see paper bags as the better option than plastic bags, and in many ways the paper is both more sustainable and could be composted to increase hummus for non-petrol based fertalizer for crops.
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Re: Overshoot

Post by Vakanai »

So the overpopulation thing again. Agree to disagree.
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caltrek
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Re: Overshoot

Post by caltrek »

Ken_J wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 9:01 pm
caltrek wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 5:19 pm There is too much information here for me to readily make a point-by-point review. A couple of things about which I would have liked to have seen more discussion:
  • What a shift to a plant-based diet by large numbers of people would do to estimates of what level of population is sustainable.
On that second point, moving down the food chain away from meat, fish, and dairy consumption means a more efficient use of potential food supply.
Instead of feeding animals, poultry, and fish, humans can be fed directly. Some may object that there would be a problem of sufficient protein intake. A reading of T. Colin Campbell's The China Study and The Future of Nutrition has convinced me that the need for protein in our diets is overstated. At least if you are relying on suggested minimumished by U.S. government agencies. Sufficient protein intake can thus be obtained from plants.
the problem with plant based diets isn't that the protein isn't there, that argument is a bit like the package of sweets that declare themselves fat free when the fat content was never what made them unhealthy in the first place.

Humans need dietary sources of both micro and macro nutrients within specific ranges that quite frankly are not easily achieved in any extreme dietary regime. we need certain B vitamins that do not occur in plant based diets. and while you can get plenty of protein from grains like wheat (I've made Seitan by hand) plant based diets high enough in the harder to get nutrients often have a massive over supply of others that can lead to health problems of their own (Purine and gout are a good example), and an over correction away from fats toward carbohydrates in the diet has resulted in increases in diabetes while messing up the fat assortments our food supplies and that our bodies need.
From my reading of T. Colin Campbell, there are not a lot of nutrients that most people need that cannot be obtained from a whole food/plant based diet that simply involves a good variety of such foods. Vitamin B12 is an exception. Generally, T. Colin Campbell advises against encapsulated nutrient supplements, but vitamin B12 supplements are an exception he makes to that general rule.

While animal based products are probably the most common source of Vitamin B12, there are plant based sources available:
(WebMD) Vitamin B12 from plants is available from a variety of sources, including nutritional yeast, fortified foods, cereals, mushrooms, and some algae. These vegetarian sources of vitamin B12 are an excellent way for vegans to include the nutrient in their diets.
https://www.webmd.com/diet/what-are-pla ... itamin-b12

In specific regards to nutritional yeast:
(Eat Love.Live) Bacteria are responsible for producing B12. In the cultivation of nutritional yeast, bacterial growth is suppressed. Instead, nutritional yeast is fortified with cyanocobalamin, a synthesized form of vitamin B12. The resulting B12 found in nutritional yeast is not animal-based, which makes it the perfect supplement for vegans.
https://eatlove.live/nutritional-yeast-and-b12/

I should add that on doctor’s orders, I take a B complex supplement.

Plant based sources for other vitamin B needs are:
(Food Revolution Network)
  • Vitamin B1: beans, peas, lentils, and sunflower seeds.
• Vitamin B2: almonds, tofu, mushrooms, avocado, and spinach.
• Vitamin B3: brown rice, nuts, seeds, legumes, and bananas.
• Vitamin B5: mushrooms, avocado, nuts, seeds, potatoes, brown rice, oats, and broccoli.
• Vitamin B6: chickpeas, dark leafy greens, papayas, bananas, oranges, and cantaloupe.
• Vitamin B7: sweet potatoes, nuts, seeds, and avocado.
• Vitamin B9: dark leafy greens, beans, peanuts, sunflower seeds, and oranges.
• Vitamin B12: fortified nutritional yeast and breakfast cereals, as well as enriched plant-based milks and yogurts.
Source: https://foodrevolution.org/blog/b-vitamins-benefits/
Ken J: Additionally there is still a lot of misinformation on the ground level about what foods effect what metabolic and physiological processes (like does dietary cholesterol effect blood cholesterol more or less than glycemic index? or how does carb and fat together effect the biological effects of the diet?).

In the end the truth is likely everything is a little bad for you, and a lot of people with bias see the bad in the other way from their own, and doubt or dismiss the issues in their own path.

But the world needs animals that are eaten in the food chain, they fill ecological niches, and they serve environmental and nutritional roles in the world. and there are ways to include them in sustainability. https://clear.ucdavis.edu/blog/what-if- ... ating-meat
If by “the world” you mean the nutritional diet needs of human beings, I tend not to agree. If you mean to fulfill “environmental…roles” I would agree.
Ken J: the 'go vegan for the earth' people remind me of the folks who pushed for stopping paper bags for grocery stores, to save the trees. Now we see paper bags as the better option than plastic bags, and in many ways the paper is both more sustainable and could be composted to increase hummus for non-petrol based fertalizer for crops.
I am not sure of the connection between “paper bags” and earlier points regarding plant-based foods etc.

T. Colin Campbell’s argument isn’t based primarily on “vegan for the earth” arguments. Rather, it is primarily based on better health outcomes for those who pursue a whole food/plant-based food diet. Studies he reviews show better health outcomes in avoiding heart disease and stroke, diabetes, common cancers, autoimmune diseases and even bone, kidney, eye, and brain diseases.

Of course, I would add that anybody contemplating making a radical change in their diet toward a whole food/ plant-based approach should consult their physician first. My comments are directed more to the aggregate and in general, so specific exceptions may occur. My personal taking of Vitamin B complex pills is a bit of an exception. I also take a vitamin D3 supplement, another exception flagged by Campbell as being beneficial. That is also taken by me on doctor’s recommendation.

I enjoyed reviewing your comments and appreciate how they compelled me to do further research to verify claims that I have presented.
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Re: Overshoot

Post by MythOfProgress »

that feels a might bit like Malthus all over again. and the gaps in his models were big enough to fit a world of billions more through.
well, i did mention the "Malthusians" hehe. Cornucopian ideals would like to think we still have a wide variety and good quantity of resources to draw from-but almost always overestimate the trends that our society has demonstrated for "growth", or worse interpret the new technological developments we've made as "growth"(it's just drawdown from future resources, not actual development in terms of sustainability).

likewise, this goes for the billions of people that already exist as is, we've replaced most of the wildlife and biomass with us, with anything left being domesticated or used for farming oftentimes for our own purposes. yes-we've got the appearance that we can take more people and care for more yet adding billions more would only be throwing more people in just to die prematurely at this rate as well as ensuring less resources to go around for everyone else.
and the shift over to rewilding while food production shifts to methods way more efficient in water, nutrients, and space used; would be a huge cut out of the burden we have on the earth. switching power over to nuclear and 'renewables'. water desalination technologies, materials sciences
and if i recall correctly before in the initial thread i participated in(everything is not getting worse), renewable energy and nuclear energy do not scale presently-we'd have to strip-mine the entire planet 4 times over if we ever wanted a chance at getting a similar output of oil with photovoltaics, wind turbines have to be replaced periodically 20-25 years(25 to 30 for solar panels, this is also leaving out the energy efficiency that declines gradually throughout the years for solar panels).

not to mention the intermittent power generation that comes with both. as for nuclear energy, we have still yet to crack the secret to nuclear fusion almost a year later after i mentioned this(there was some brief news on it if i recall correctly a few months ago, but the hype all died down considering it wasn't that much energy to begin with that we got out of the process).

without the nuclear fusion process being perfected- we'd still be struggling with peak uranium in the next 5-10 years. even then, if we somehow had a miracle thrown our way in the nuclear fusion technology- we'd still have to contend with the time and the resources to scale this would have to be far faster than any rollout of new technology in human history- something that is pretty much unprecedented.

keep in mind fossil fuels and energy scarcity are hardly the only existential threats that are discussed when it comes to overshoot. with desalination technologies proving to have negative externalities(being extremely energy-intensive alongside the brine that is created as a result- oftentimes being dumped back in the ocean which creates deadzones- it's a bit of a double-edged sword considering we'd be killing life in the ocean as a cost for fresh water (or rather accelerate the process of killing aquatic life and ecosystems in the ocean that already exists.)
It's not hard to imagine a future in which a family of four on a 1/4 acre of land can grow all the food they need, harvest renewable energy for household needs, recycle the same cistern of 100 gallons of water, produce zero (or near zero) waste matter, etc. that would be everybody on earth taking up about 1/3 the land the size of the entire USA. but spread out across the world.
note the word "can". doesn't mean we'll actually follow up on that promise or take proactive steps in going through with it, its gonna be a very difficult if not impossible process to convince people that degrowth is necessary- because while a few folks might be able to go local and focus on community-oriented solutions- this does not matter in the grand scheme of things if almost everyone is continuously exploiting and leveraging the environment for their own gain/comfort. almost resembling a tragedy of the commons situation.
if or when we manage to do that it will also mean moving closer to a point where we can create off world colonies too, so not only is there a drive to make sustainable paths forward for earth but making sustainable bubble modules that we can seed across the space we can reach. and that comes with the bonus of thinning the burden of humanity on earth, but also opening the bubble of earth to importing things from off world to increase the supply side of the supply and demand equation.
im sure we've all heard of the term walking before running right? as it is- humanity is stumbling if not crawling- so dont think i'd be wasting time on hypothetical events about paraterraforming planets and setting up off-world colonies if we're too busy dying here on the surface of our birth planet- i've mentioned this before in previous threads so i apologize if come across as tedious but again if you want to convince me that space travel is a viable method of survival- you'd have to demonstrate the ability to manufacture and maintain a closed ecosystem capable of sustaining several humans with no shipments coming in from earth at all for extended periods of time- similar to what the BioSphere 2 experiment tried to achieve.
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Re: Overshoot

Post by MythOfProgress »

It feels like Malthus because it is Malthus. Catton wasn't an ecologist and his concept of overshoot is not scientifically sound. He openly admits to admiring Malthus.
"known for his scholarly work in environmental sociology and human ecology".... might not be his main field of expertise- but interdisciplinary fields of study are encouraged if not required if we ever want a more nuanced and detailed perspective on what's occurring to our environment- as well as recognizing the human dynamics that go into interacting with said environment.
having read the article, i can't really see instances of him "admiring" malthus to the point where it clouds his judgement or influences his bias as it is him noting his prescient knowledge of the problem at hand- he does give some praise to him for being able to see the problem before everyone else but also criticizes him in the inadequate data he had as well as his lack of solutions in regards to the population ballooning at the time-alongside his optimistic nature that the population would not exceed the carrying capacity. regardless, i dont doubt some amount of bias is going to exist especially for someone who is cognizant of a problem that'd impact us in the near future.
Humans are not the reindeer in the St Matthew Island scenario, abandoned on an island by a mysterious force outside of our control. We’re the humans who brought them there. We’re not cattle penned in a pasture, mindlessly eating and drinking everything in sight. We’re the range managers drilling wells and planting hay. Through the cultural evolution and accumulation of knowledge, we are the force that provides, and in a meaningful sense creates, our resources.
changing analogies doesn't really change the fact that we as a species have no checks and balances currently as it stands-we are in essence the super apex predator of the natural world having out-competed just about every organism to our advantage- and yet this is the same thing that'll ultimately kill us in the end- the deer had no predators to keep them in check and they died off in an almost instantaneous fashion in only a few decades with the remaining few being emaciated.

as i've said before, the checks and balances i've promoted has always been birth control and family planning, but for the reasons i've outlined above in my prior response to ken_j- we are going to have a difficult time convincing people not to have children even with the indirect methods of empowering women- especially if its regarding a religious, cultural society.

there's a comment that was left below in the same article that you posted by another individual [markcounseling], describing the original poster[Adam Kranz] of the article as being part of "the audience he once wished to persuade away from an embrace of techno-industrial solutions; and you were once persuaded, and now are not -- which is interesting, although I am still not quite clear from your article why.". biotechnology may or not be included.

they also make a good counter to the argument the original poster mentions in regards to the creativity of humans, saying ...."True, a reindeer does not see the sun or oil as "resources" and therefore cannot use them like we do, but we are neither the sun nor oil (the force in the resource); nor do we meaningfully "create" the resources themselves. The most we do is "see them as" a resource, which thereby allows us to "use" them. Which means that we (eventually) turn them into waste products. I can use wood to make a table, but I cannot create wood. That's the distinction. My creativity may seem infinite, but I cannot make a table out of water or fire."....

furthermore, they seem to highlight the problem of Jevon's paradox(which i've mentioned a few times before in other threads but haven't actually gone through the process of explaining)- basically its the process of efficiency gains in a certain resource/energy being followed up by a dramatic usage of that resource as a result of its cheap and ease of use..."This also does not prevent the resources we use from operating either as a goad towards population growth, or to increase wastes, which is Catton's contention. The more resources we find, the more we will use them; and fundamentally, it doesn't matter if these are natural resources (sun, oil) or fully imaginary ones (bitcoin). Increased efficiency means growth and growth means more growth and therefore more waste, until we reach a forced limit in which the waste cannot be processed or it otherwise overwhelms the limited system (e.g., Earth).".

they do make another response, talking about the supposed planetary limits that we've bypassed..."Is it true that we will eventually reach a forced limit? [OP] seems to argue against it. I would say that global warming indicates otherwise; this is the "vise" Catton says that we're in. We expand, and as we do so, we crowd out other plant and animal species (Anthropocene). As we do that, we damage our ecology irreparably (they're not coming back); that's one jaw. And the other jaw of the vise is that we pollute (carbon dioxide plus so many others) in a way that natural processing systems are overloaded. As if the deer pellets on St Matthew's Island accumulated to such an extent that they killed all the grass.".
It’s still possible that humanity will drive itself extinct, as we’ve already tragically done to many other species. But if that happens, it won’t be because we were always doomed to “run out of resources.” It will be because we failed to reach solutions to environmental and technological problems that were within our grasp the whole time.
again, the individual makes another response to the concluding statements of OP..."The thrust of Catton's book seems to be that what you call "environmental and technological problems" are what he would call "limits". Limits are not problems, but rather something that needs to be accepted. For example, we're all going to die. That's a limit, and there's nothing we can do about it and need to find a way to accept it.".
This is what our future is likely to look like in most places in the coming centuries. Not death by any means.
Oil consumption may have dropped after the Soviet Union collapse, but for Cuba it was never on a rapid scale(https://i0.wp.com/ourfiniteworld.com/wp ... .png?ssl=1)- Cuba "had" the privilege of being able to wean itself off of the oil- and yet they still haven't hit rock-bottom even with the documentary showing us the full extent of the damage. most of cuba's oil is imported from venezuela(which isn't looking too good to be honest), with them now resorting to getting their's from russia and mexico.

the guy around 17:00 already describes the fact that industrial agriculture is what fed most people- as for permaculture/organic fertlizer/agriculture as a local and regional solution, i can see it happening-it does involve many integrated solutions in regards to transitioning or making the attempt to transition our society to a greener world- but could it produce enough food/calories to feed billions of people within the next few years? because the next few years seem to be all we have left before the tipping points in our planet are inevitably crossed.

not to mention the lower yields that they have compared to chemical fertilizers/industrial agriculture-last time i remember talking about this in the "everything is not getting worse thread" i was talking about Sri Lanka having just gone through the process of losing out on chemical fertilizers and struggling with the transition to organic fertilizer- especially considering the plants and soils having becoming used to the former. seems like a year later, they are still struggling for food. still have to remember it's not just peak oil we're talking about here- but a myriad of other environmental catastrophes converging on us all at once. like the old man said best around 44:49, without it; it's matter of life or death when it comes to the use of oil.

keep in mind the domestic oil production is only a small percentage of the total consumption when it comes to cuba. can't really erase the fact that we as a society, are addicted to oil. we are in this too deep now to give it up- and when it finally dawns on us- the withdrawal effects will result in billions of people dying in the process. no doubt permaculture is gonna help out slightly- i doubt it'll sustain humanity considering the lower yields that are produced per acre as we wrestle with a world that is plagued with an unstable climate and tipping points that will be reached.
In other words, our resource problems and our ecological problems are caused by how we as a culture are choosing to interact with those resources and that ecosystem. We can relate differently, and I'd argue we will become more pressured to by ecosystem collapse and thus more likely to overtime. Unlike every other species on the planet we have the ability to intentionally adapt and not just become net-neutral on our impact but net-positive. Permaculture is highly productive, resistant to all forms of natural disaster and increases biodiversity compared to every other form of human land use. Havana as a city produces over half of its food consumption in urban gardens and farms despite Cuba's ongoing resource shortages and progression into a post-industrial economy. This is only scratching the surface of things we could be doing to have a regenerative ecological relationship with the Earth.
.
i mean, it's not like a bunch of evil old white rich guys came together to form the system we now know as capitalism(although they're the main ones benefiting off it)- it's just something that manifested and out-competed all the other systems through its efficiency in extracting resources from our environment, almost like an emergent property.

the societies that developed the technologies to best exploit the earth and developed the socioeconomic frameworks that put the extracted resources to best use almost always dominated every other society when they came into contact; capitalism is just the newest iteration of that process, using all that technological and cultural energy alongside resource usage, it's just a highly efficient form of extraction and competition at its most basic level.

there's a reason why just about every indigenous society collapsed, got assimilated or just outright wiped out when it came to contact with imperialistic nations in the past- and its because they were eco-conscious/sustainable; i dont mean it from a moral perspective, so much as it is a practical one- because of their eco-conscious philosophies they were either less capable or less willing to utilize the natural resources at their disposal(at least in a militant fashion). for every one person you meet that is eco-conscious or attempts to be sustainable- there's a dozen others out that are willing to use the resources you won't use. this goes for the general public and doubly so for the varying militaries across the world.
R.I.P Ziba.
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