Antiwork movement

[funkervogt]

there are things that need doing to produce needed aspects of life. Maslows needs on the base level are a goods summary of what really needs to be in place at the bare minimum. From there we can add mobility around ones area to access things, energy, communications, and general utilities. And then access to sources if learning and betterment.

I agree.

In the US we have roughly 350 million people. and we have the capabilities to provide all of the above to every one of those 350 million, with fewer that 1 in ten of those 350 million working Part time to make these things possible.

I agree, but for most Americans, it would be a drop in their standard of living. For example, your energy might get rationed so you couldn't turn the heat or air conditioning beyond certain extremes, and your free mobility would take the form of buses, which would take forever to cover long distances or to get you to more obscure destinations.

But that is not how we design work. we structure it such that kids from age 4-5 begin training to become workers in a system they are expected to join in the adolescence, which they are then required to give one third of their life each week to earn the right to survive.

I agree.

and if all goes well they will be let off the hampster wheel when they reach their late 60s to enjoy 6-12 years to seek enrichment and experiences.

During your working life, you can use weekends, holidays and scheduled vacations for enrichment and experiences.

So if the needs of the many can be met but so little work, but so much work is being done by so many, their is clearly artificial work being generated. to what end? Because certain classes need to earn survival? Because laboring is fetishised as a reward in and of itself and the purpose of every soul in gods great plan, and that believe was established by lords and clergy in a time most people were livestock on the lands of those with divine rights of rulership, whose hands never blistered or calloused.

I agree, except for with the last statement, which I don't understand.

Now we've reached a time in our country where most of us will never get that chance to retire, our life expectancy is shrinking so that we are on track to not get that 6-12 years.

The American life expectancy has slightly shrunk due to the impact of COVID-19. The dip will disappear in a few years as more people get vaccinated and as better vaccines and treatments are introduced. U.S. life expectancy lags that of other rich countries mostly due to our higher obesity rate, and much higher extreme obesity rate. There is no conspiracy among rich people that has caused this.

meanwhile instead of working 1/3 of our days at these jobs, most of us have to work 1/2 to 3/5 just to afford rent and utility costs that are inflated by monopolies to maximise the profits of a few, whose hands never blistered or calloused.

I half agree and half disagree. Real estate costs vary considerably across the U.S., and if they're too high in your area, you should move to someplace cheaper. Are rich people somehow blocking you from moving around the country?

I'm not sure about utility costs. Probably temporary inflation resulting from the effects of COVID-19.

So our lives are no longer ours to use, they belong to somebody else. And when a pandemic hit and our owners worried about the loss of livestock, we got the chances to see exactly how little work was really essential, and what was really important. But soon enough they were talking about how some of us might have to sacrifice ourselves to so that they could get their luxuries supplied to them. And it really was just soo much more blatant than before.

The situation is not that dire.

They then said it was $600 stimulus checks that were allowing us to be lazy and not work. Then it was extended unemployment benefits. So they rushed through plans to take it away from the servant class, to make them unable to resist coming back to labor for them. But it didn't. Moratoriums on evictions had to be done away with. and they did, yet they still harp on the labor shortage. They jack up the costs of everything including rents, to make it harder to survive, so people will have to consign their existence to laboring their entire lives to simply not starve homeless. soon student loans will come due, and that's not going to solve it all either.

There's evidence that emergency government benefits actually did dissuade many people from returning to their jobs. When you're making almost as much money doing nothing as you were working, the rational choice for many is to keep staying at home.

The veneer was chipped away. Maybe not all people, but enough have seen the rule book of this game they are the pieces in and they are not happy with the rules. They got a sense of how the game could be different, and the players are determined to keep playing with the lives of the pieces, trying to get them back in place after the pandemic upset the board.

Work hard, save your money, be smart, live below your means. Do that, and after a few years, you'll see major results.

[Ken_J]

'a bunch of malarkey '

I'm not in the mood to hold your hand through learning what a load of crap you're spreading around, by posting dozens of links to actual data.

But the affordable housing crisis predates the pandemic. The Move somewhere else is a bullshit argument akin to the 'if you don't like it leave' crap, especially in a country where nowhere in the whole damn country can a minimum wage worker afford rent with a full time job. a person working 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week to afford rent utilities and health care, doesn't get weekends, holidays, and scheduled vacations days. American life span has been declining due to decreased access and quality of american for profit healthcare, prior to the pandemic. And We have the worst outcomes for birthing mothers and child mortality in the first world countries, despite paying more for it than the others. For profit healthcare systems have lead to worse outcomes for the american people.

congratulation on your promotion to middle management I guess. Either that or maybe seek a counter brainwashing expert. Cuz I see the script of the 'nobody wants to work' and 'if you don't like it leave' 'talking heads in your response. and your assertion that Hard work and savings will work is so much bullshit it's frankly marked you as somebody whose opinion on any topic on this forum is so deeply out of touch with the actual conditions of things for 40 percent of americans that it's not worth listening to what you have to say on the topic anymore.

[funkervogt]

Well if you don't want to talk to me, I hope you look inward and consider what your own blinders and biases might be that make your outlook on the world so negative.

[SerethiaFalcon]

I can speak to a few things from personal experience. Moving is not easy at all unless you have money to do so (I'm talking at least 6,000 dollars saved up at the very low end). You have to pay for transportation (gas/food/or tickets), somewhere to put your stuff (plus deciding how much to take with you), rent for an apartment plus the down payment (if not investing in a house, which takes a lot more money/mortgage/taxes/extra work/money to take care of it), and enough money for at least 3 to 6 months of rent/utilities/groceries/gas or transportation in a good job market, and a year or more in a bad one (Technically, I consider the internet to be essential anymore for finding jobs, it is getting more difficult to find them without that, especially with no social connections in a community). Some people cannot save more than 300 dollars or less a month despite cutting out most or all nonessential things. Even then, it can be a real headache. If you don't move with a job lined up, it can be even more brutal (and they don't make it easy for low-income people to get another job lined up in other states). Also, one crisis situation such as medical issues or a car breaks down, and that extra money is easily drained away. Education can help, but it is sometimes difficult to find the resources to pursue it. With all the automation and turbulence in the job market right now, it is difficult for people to know what direction to take sometimes. At least, it was for me. On top of that, if you are a minority population and are trying to find a safer environment for yourself, your options will naturally be more limited, especially if you already have too much trauma to go to a dangerous area for yourself. So, even if an area is a good market for jobs, some may not be able to move there for other reasons. We had some help with where to move in the new community due to my partner's health issues, but it is a hit-or-miss situation. Also, affording rent really depends on the area, and the ironic thing is if a place has a lower cost of living and a bunch of people crowd into the city or town because of that, it will suddenly become way too expensive to live there due to the housing being taken up. Part of the problem, ironically, is in the Millenial generation, there are too many of us all wanting the same things, with not enough available. So, many people are having to settle with difficult situations. It could be worse, though (and will be when we get old). And, I am aware that Millenials are less worse off than Gen Z. I think because there are so many Millenials, it is hard for Gen Z to get their foot in the door, but that is just my opinion. Anyway, all that to say, living paycheck to paycheck is difficult, paying rent without a roommate on a low income is almost impossible in many cities, limited housing options due to huge populations in areas with lots of jobs is a problem, and there is no guarantee whatever job you take will be there for the foreseeable future. I mean the theater/events industry that I was in was hard hit unexpectedly by this virus and added to that the instability of worldwide politics, natural disasters, and automation/advancements in industries, it is very difficult to predict where someone will end up next. Not a good environment especially for those with anxiety disorders or other problems like that. Anyway, these are just my personal experiences. Do people need to get better at money/investment and skill-building? Sure, but that is not taking into account each individual's personal situation. However, I am not about to even remotely compare my situation or others' situation as the same as those in the industrial revolution period who were poor. Working conditions were much, much worse in the past. That doesn't mean we can't always be improving though.

Also, you could risk moving to a rural area, but it is only feasible if you have a remote job. Trying to find work in an already small town is usually pretty difficult. I've seen the results of that myself (some of the dying coal towns for instance). People gravitate there because of the cheap housing, but there are very few jobs, so then many are just getting by on some kind of governmental assistance. That's why people move away from rural areas in the first place. There are very few jobs to be had, and with the tight-knit community, you risk making yourself the hated outsider when you bring change and/or take someone else's job. Anyway, the other thing about rural communities is many are not that friendly to outsiders, especially if you are different from what they are used to. The social situation in a small town or rural area can quickly go into outcast territory due to that scenario. Survival in rural areas is usually dependent on the community around you to some extent, and if they are not on your side, that can be a bad, bad situation. Many children of rural people move away from the rural areas. Why? Lack of jobs, potential partners, opportunities, social life, etc.

[funkervogt]

Cross-reference these two lists, and move to a city where they overlap:

1. https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/p ... to-live-in

2. https://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm

[SerethiaFalcon]

Noticed Fort Wayne, IN is on that first list. That's where I just came from. Lol! My opinion: yes for the low cost of living, the crime rate is rather high (before I left, we had a shooting at our apartments, for example, though it was all hush, hush), police misconduct is common (detectives were allowed to do whatever they wanted, and pursuit of those who committed crimes was lazy), more diversity so that's good (than where I am now), traffic can be hit or miss, the hospital is hit or miss (not good for serious/complex issues, plus I've heard of scams, such as overcharging and stuff), somewhat hostile to LGBT community (very, very hostile for Trans (sexual, physical abuse possible at work and no consequences for the people, lots of verbal abuse)), if you are low income it is really, really low income (that is why it is a cheaper place to live) 7.50 to 8.00 dollars an hour (most low income jobs are part time, not as many full time with benefits), so rent will still be difficult, Evangelicals are very prevalent in that town so expect lots of conversion attempts or hostility if you don't fit that mold, any governmental assistance at all really, really sucks (if you are a part-time employee, you will have no health insurance), they do the bare minimum for any governmental service (in the state in general) unless you are an important person and you are more likely to get help from faith based services than government (but expect conversion attempts or lots of talks about their religion), there were some good eco friendly opportunities and they have a cool nature preserve organization, there are very few state parks in Northern Indiana...that's about it, that I can think of. Culture: Warm, very religious, passive-aggressive, sometimes direct, tend to be too invasive/won't leave you alone, positive: they do care (but if you are different, then hostility is more likely). There are many people who feel trapped there too. Then there are others who love it there. Just depends on who you talk to.

Just for fun:
Chicago, IL - High cost of living, the crime rate is very high (but it depends on where you live whether you see it or not), police discrimination is a problem (probably misconduct too, but don't know), lots of diversity (but everything is split into neighborhoods, so each community lives in their own section for the most part), traffic can be scary (but there is good public transport), hospitals - all over the place, some really bad, others decent, LGBT community mostly lives in their own neighborhoods (mixed bag in terms of communities response - not sure how Trans experience is), low income with rent...probably difficult from what I remember, very religious organizations have a presence in the city, but doesn't define the experience of the city, expect some amount of street preaching, etc, also expect other wild things to go on in the streets at times, pay attention to festivals and marathons, the city can be absolutely packed when big events are going on, lots of entertainment and interesting things to do, has a history of racism and stark divisions between the poor and the rich (so be aware), also, city where Al Capone spent some time (so it has a serious underbelly, plus a very industrial/cold feel in some parts), there are parks and the beach is cool, museums are awesome, but, I don't know how many state parks Illinois actually has, not sure about eco friendly opportunities there.

Culture: Colder, somewhat secular, a bit more direct, varies drastically between communities, leave you alone for the most part, too many people to care too much, hostility varies, you have to be aware of your surroundings at all times, not a huge feeling of being trapped necessarily. I suppose there is enough to do to avoid that feeling. Don't know, the pandemic might have affected that, though. This analysis is stuck in the 2000s (ten plus years ago)


Nairobi, Kenya - Cheap cost of living (for a foreigner), the crime rate is very, very high (the city was once shut down due to election violence, so be careful around elections, car jackings, robberies, thieves are very common), police are very corrupt because they are not paid well enough to live modestly (bribery is common), lots of diversity (tribal groups, foreigners, immigrant populations), traffic is a nightmare and has gotten worse over time (last I heard, it could take 1-2 hours to get across the city when it should only take a half hour) - too many cars, too few roads (and in poor condition), hospitals (well, it's not going to be what you are probably used to, but some are better than others), LGBT community is illegal (you can face prison time for engaging in sexual activity with someone of the same sex, but people are rarely prosecuted for it, hostility or mob violence highly likely if you are too open though. Holding hands and other public affection between couples (in general) is not approved). Low-income communities really struggle sometimes. The city is very religious. You will hear mosques and churches blaring their calls to service/prayer on different days. People will consider you very odd/suspicious for not being religious. Conversion attempts are very possible. Street preaching is very common and very loud. Streets are constantly packed. Sometimes even herds of cattle will be driven through the streets in times of drought (an old agreement with the Maasai who originally owned the land), lots of entertainment and interesting things to do, big events sometimes, cool museum, other places too numerous to mention, eco-consciousness, well, the power won't always be on and water have to be filtered/may be restricted during a drought. People do what they can, but don't expect any more expensive eco-consciousness projects necessarily. There is a national park that shares a border with the city, so you can go see lions and giraffes with the city skyline in the background. Pretty cool! Lots of really cool parks throughout the country. That alone would be worth it.

Culture: Very warm, love to welcome guests and invite you to different events/even into their house sometimes, Very, very religious (warmer to people who share their religion), Very indirect, Expressing anger in public is very bad, if you offend someone, you may never know what you did as they may just disappear on you without explanation (especially if you didn't backtrack on what caused offense), preserving someone's dignity is usually important, elders are respected over and above everyone else to a very high degree (it is very hard for young people to lead here), people are very sympathetic and very social, expect strangers/acquaintances to show up to your house unannounced at times, rural areas vary considerably depending on the tribe and customs. Also, if you look different, then you will be stared at constantly, some will touch you, especially children, but sometimes adults too. If you are white, you will be called mzungu (white person) everywhere and people will assume you have money and be constantly asking for it in one way or another (whether selling something or not). If you are a woman, people will call you sister to get your attention all the time. Just, get used to lots of staring. There will occasionally be rude comments (but you will probably not understand them). Also, time is not as important. Some will still value it, but a lot of people go about their days with social priorities rather than time priorities. Events can be very, very long as everyone who has a part in the event wants to give a half-hour to hour speech. This gets worse when you go to the rural areas. Also, sometimes events start on time, but most of the time, expect a one to two hour delay, especially in rural areas. This analysis is from at least 10 plus years ago, so you know, it's old, probably outdated to some extent.

[PrometheusUnbound]

In the Netherlands in the 1980s we took a (tiny) step towards Keynes' vision: during a long economic recession, many employers could not afford to offer payrises and offered shorter working weeks for the same income instead. For example I work on a standard 36 hour contract, with enough holidays to turn it into a four-day workweek. Not quite the 20 (or zero) hours per week that some argue for, but a small step in that direction.

If automation makes it possible to offer this and more to all workers then I'm all for it. But in an open economy (cheap imports from lower income countries) this is going to be difficult in a lot of sectors.

With UBI you can enable workers to refuse jobs below a certain level of income/comfort/fun. I suppose you'd also have to offer universal healthcare and affordable housing and education to make that work. But all of this requires some level of solidarity between the citizens of a state. Would this solidarity hold if you also have (somewhat) open borders?

So in short: how to work towards short workweeks and UBI if the rest of the world isn't doing that at the same time?

[Tadasuke]

Some kind of UBI will become a necessity (at least in the so called developed countries) in the 2040s, but a world where no one needs to work will not happen before the XXII century. As of 2022, the majority of us have to work, or else our civilization will crumble. This is the unfortunate truth. But yes, I think it would be better if we didn't have to work.

[rennerpetey]

the r/antiwork movement is not a self-contained phenomena and more a manifestation of American discontentedness with the state of American labor. It is the same mechanic that's causing waves of unionization across the country. (Amazon, Starbucks, Graduate Students, etc.) (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... on-tactics)

To hijack this topic as "the future of labor." My question is whether this is a movement that will stick around or if it is more a result of COVID messing with everyone? Certainly COVID has exasperated people's sentiments, but I believe there's a larger trend here. I think that this uptick in unionizing and class consciousness, after decades of nothing, is also connected to the rise in populism that's been ongoing for at least a decade. It makes sense because populism is basically a measure of how upset people are with the current system; workers being upset with their work is consistent with that and is politically connected to left populism.

So are we going to see the 2nd rise of American labor in the next decade? Are modern unions like the AFL even capable of acting in the radical way American Unions used to in order to respond to the call for a harder stance against capital? There is certainly further change coming in this area, not to mention how powerful organized labor is/will be in furthering causes that empower workers (welfare, control of labor over capital, etc.).

[raklian]

the r/antiwork movement is not a self-contained phenomena and more a manifestation of American discontentedness with the state of American labor. It is the same mechanic that's causing waves of unionization across the country. (Amazon, Starbucks, Graduate Students, etc.) (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... on-tactics)

To hijack this topic as "the future of labor." My question is whether this is a movement that will stick around or if it is more a result of COVID messing with everyone? Certainly COVID has exasperated people's sentiments, but I believe there's a larger trend here. I think that this uptick in unionizing and class consciousness, after decades of nothing, is also connected to the rise in populism that's been ongoing for at least a decade. It makes sense because populism is basically a measure of how upset people are with the current system; workers being upset with their work is consistent with that and is politically connected to left populism.

So are we going to see the 2nd rise of American labor in the next decade? Are modern unions like the AFL even capable of acting in the radical way American Unions used to in order to respond to the call for a harder stance against capital? There is certainly further change coming in this area, not to mention how powerful organized labor is/will be in furthering causes that empower workers (welfare, control of labor over capital, etc.).

Not even unions and organized campaigns to improve working conditions and wages will stop the freight train that is automation. Proponents of unions and minimum wage hikes will eventually realize this.

I think the national conversation will eventually shift from unions and higher minimum wage to basic income as automation starts to make serious inroads into our society.