Everything is not getting worse

Discuss the evolution of human culture, economics and politics in the decades and centuries ahead
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by MythOfProgress »

People living in generation alpha will know greater bounty than any generation that has ever existed on this Earth. The generation that follows them will likely know even greater bounty, this is not new, the rate of change is increasing as someone who lived in the year 1700 may not have noticed much of a difference in their daily life at all if they were to live in 1730 or 1740.
Based on what? you're saying this like it's a certainty and like these kids aren't gonna grow up in a world that's already been used up of resources, in a degraded envionrment and a future mostly full of climate dread, im sorry but you need to get real and get out of the whole "progress is good" mindset, especially when the progress we've experienced has mostly been at the cost of the environment, the very thing we need to survive- progressing sustainably nowadays is pretty much unachievable, anyone that says otherwise is lying to you or to themselves.
This rate of change has only gotten steeper the further forward in time you look, the 1960's were a considerably better time to live than the 1920's, the 2000's a considerably better time to be alive than the 60's and the 2040's are somehow going to become worse than this? Very unlikely.
to me, it seems like like you've got a pretty two-dimensional way of thinking about this whole progress thing from what im reading, its as if though technology "progresses" in our lives, we are suddenly better off for it right? im sorry, but it's not that simple and the fact that you keep making it so is incredibly frustrating, you're getting stuck in a narrative(comforting as it may seem) about our future being some star-trek-esque(or close to it) where we'll be better off, even if the evidence points to the opposite direction.
However I see no evidence that the general quality of life has any realistic chance of being lower than it is today for the people that are fortunate enough to experience that time.
Then you're blind.
Their medical technology will with certainty be greater than anything we can achieve today as will their ability to generate energy, through whatever means. Climate change will undeniably effect them but to a enough of a degree that they cannot in turn adapt or overcome whatever that effect is would be something I seriously doubt.
like i mentioned in my previous comment, antibiotic resistence will be a huge issue in the near-future, it will make tackling diseases, infections and other types of injuries far more difficult than expected, the next generation is going to thank us for our extremely liberal usage of antibiotic based medications. and why do you "seriously doubt" that we can't adapt to the environment? most people can't survive in a prolonged heatwave, as this past summer has indicated to me(https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... y-seniors/), what makes you think we will fare any better when the crops we harvest for food fail? what makes you think we'll overcome a series of extreme weather events, droughts, storms, floods when their frequency becomes more common and consistent? what makes you think we can somehow endure a 2 or 3 degree celsius increase in our environment? is it technology that will save us? will we engineer our way out of this? you seem to think so, so i'd like answers. chances are, survival at those temperatures becomes extremely difficult and the body has trouble regulating temperature as is, go beyond the aforementioned degrees of celsius and you will ensure an near-term extinction of the human species.
Their world will be an improvement on ours as ours is an improvement on what came before yet still faces challenges and hardships.
again, i wish it was that simple, but the next generation will be the last to die, im not saying that with the concept of life extension or immortality in mind like most here would think, but straight-up there will be nothing left for them to improve upon in the dead world they'll inherit. we've already used up our resources for growth, long long time ago, only way out now, is down.
R.I.P Ziba.
TrueAnimationFan
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by TrueAnimationFan »

"anyone that says otherwise is lying to you or to themselves"

"Then you're blind"

Myth, please stop it. You're seriously starting to sound like a cyberbully here; you can't just throw insults at these users because they have a different vision of the future than you do.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by MythOfProgress »

anyone that says otherwise is lying to you or to themselves"

"Then you're blind"

Myth, please stop it. You're seriously starting to sound like a cyberbully here; you can't just throw insults at these users because they have a different vision of the future than you do.
apologies if i come across that way, but my main goal here isn't to insult you or feel superior to you, just telling you the facts. either way you cut it,i suppose coming across as a bully is inevitable given that i am pretty much going against the general narrative here of "future good, past bad" and hence, ppl are going to be insulted either way considering they identify heavily with this belief. feel free to prove me wrong whenever you have time TrueAnimation , i would like to believe things will be fine like everyone else here does.
R.I.P Ziba.
TrueAnimationFan
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by TrueAnimationFan »

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise; I said earlier that I respect your viewpoint just fine. I would just prefer that you speak a bit more politely.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by MythOfProgress »

TrueAnimationFan wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:08 pm I'm not trying to convince you otherwise; I said earlier that I respect your viewpoint just fine. I would just prefer that you speak a bit more politely.
Attacking ideas, not people here, so i think im set.
R.I.P Ziba.
Nero
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by Nero »

There is no evidence that exists that suggests that the past is better than the future, it is quite literally a two dimensional thing. People in the future will have their own challenges, generally though their quality of life and what they can do will be better or greater than what existed before them.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by MythOfProgress »

Nero wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:34 am There is no evidence that exists that suggests that the past is better than the future, it is quite literally a two dimensional thing. People in the future will have their own challenges, generally though their quality of life and what they can do will be better or greater than what existed before them.
k then, you could always provide evidence for this notion of yours, i've already linked countless examples of us being on the "correct" path of our self-destruction. so feel free to support your statement with something tangible.
R.I.P Ziba.
Nero
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by Nero »

All of human history? That tangible enough?

Was life better for people living in 1940 or 2022? Was life better in for people living in 1940 or 1860? Was life better for people living in 1860 or 1780?

Also human beings are notoriously difficult to kill, have mass engineered machines and technologies than can sustain them even in the aftermath of catastrophic events like an asteroid hitting the Earth.

It is entirely possible to smart farm below ground:



Now such things are possible there is no ecological collapse that could kill off all humanity, short of the Earth being thrown into the Sun there is effectively nothing that can kill off humanity, and even then that will only hold true for the next decade at most until we become a multiplanetary species.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

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Nero wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:02 pm All of human history? That tangible enough?
No, not really, elaborate further because the only thing im getting out of this statement is that you're lumping all of human history into a narrow/linear view of development, it'd help me to understand if you explain further.
Was life better for people living in 1940 or 2022? Was life better in for people living in 1940 or 1860? Was life better for people living in 1860 or 1780?
Like i said before, you're not seeing the forest for the trees, only what's in front of you and without the context, you have a series of years consisting of technological development without acknowledging the social, geopolitical and environmental status of where we are nowadays, and that is what's most important.
Also human beings are notoriously difficult to kill, have mass engineered machines and technologies than can sustain them even in the aftermath of catastrophic events like an asteroid hitting the Earth.
no, we aren't that difficult to kill despite what you might think, crank the heat up one way and we start to suffer from heat stroke, instability from temperatures exceeding far beyond what we can handle, go the other direction and we freeze to death, often hypothermia sets in with the cells becoming crystalline as a result, that's not to mention the various ways we can die, usually from disease(which will most likely become more prominent as antibiotic resistance and fatigue from the pandemic sets in), blunt force trauma and projectiles(we've conjured up more ways and technologies of killing each other, on that we can agree on), becoming prey to a predator(bears often come in mind) i can go on and on and on about the multitude of ways we can die, but i'd rather save myself the time from doing so. forgive me for being doubtful but what machines and technologies have we made that can save us after a catastrophic event?
i have no doubt when it comes to the most important figures of our time(politicians, celebrities, billionaires etc) would have access to dedicated panic/safe rooms in which they can hide in the event of when SHTF(shit hits the fan) but i have much doubt that this would extend to members of the general public and if they would even be capable of surviving in the long-run, the infamous BIOSPHERE-2 experiment that occurred(which turned out to be a massive failure by the way) demonstrated the difficulties in creating a closed system that is self-sufficient, (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/sund ... hange.html), there is the BIOS-3 russian experiment that occurred though there hasn't been any updates as far as im concerned.
It is entirely possible to smart farm below ground:
I'm not debating if its possible, im debating if its practical and if its even sustainable in the long-run of things, the range of foods that can be grown with indoor farming are extremely limited not to mention the fact if its even scalable, using artificial lighting to replace the sun(which just doesn't have the same effect on the plants), not accounting for the high cost both economic-wise and energy-wise, this video goes into better detail as to why the process is incredibly inefficient and wouldn't be a substitute for regular farming.
Now such things are possible there is no ecological collapse that could kill off all humanity, short of the Earth being thrown into the Sun there is effectively nothing that can kill off humanity, and even then that will only hold true for the next decade at most until we become a multiplanetary species.
then i'll say what i've said before, you're blind. most of our ecosystems are in a dramatic state of decline as a result of our expansions out into the environment(the constant destruction, alteration of it in ways we still can't understand fully) and without their existence which manifests itself more significantly in the form of food chains, we won't last much longer. the fact is we evolved to live on a planet like this, and we still have the ability to die in a variety of ways and you're proposing/indicating that we will somehow expand into space and settle on alien environments? oh but wait this is the part where you mention body modification and terra-forming as credible ways we can sustain ourselves in these hostile environments?(though there doesn't exist much peer-reviewed evidence for this, feel free to link any sources you may find.)
R.I.P Ziba.
Nero
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Re: Everything is not getting worse

Post by Nero »

All of human history is littered with human beings dying of the things you claim would make us extinct, 500 years ago in the year 1500 there were approximately half a billion humans living on the planet, now there are over 8 billion humans living on Earth and that number is not going down, do you understand these very basic figures?

Humans have always been susceptible to the things you are inferring will lead to their doom and despite that humanity is more prevalent than it has ever been, this is not an image of a species in danger of extinction. Humanity didn't suddenly increase it's population 400% in the span of one human lifetime because it is declining. If that were even close to being true we'd see some evidence of mass death that could lead to their extinction but even if we suppose to existence of such a cause of death we need to rule out what it can't be.

Things that cannot lead to the death of the human race are natural disasters, epidemics, illnesses, even the loss of items from the food chain will not lead to the end of humanity or the end of human civilization. The entire reason I keep stating the obvious to you is that you are overlooking it for the sake of arguing a nothing point. You intend for what? Apathetic resignation that somehow the human race is doomed to fail? It may well be, but it won't be within our lifetimes, assuming entropy is inevitable then yes the Heat Death of the Universe will lead to human extinction.

Everything else though is entirely manageable and easily resolvable. To ensure Humanity's survival all you need is the basic minimum, which modern technologies allow us to meet incredibly easily, you cannot grow everything in a vertical farm without natural sunlight true but you can grow anything you realistically require to sustain human life indefinitely within one.

And questioning their sustainability is a complete joke of an argument and one that is easily dispelled. Vertical underground farming is the most sustainable form of agriculture that exists it doesn't have fundamental shortcomings that regular farming does:

[*]With rows of in-demand veg stacked on top of each other, less space is used to grow more food.
[*]The crops are grown in an isolated environment, where factors can be manipulated. Fruit and vegetables grown outdoors are impacted by the weather and their environment, but vertical farms can grow all year round, uninterrupted by external threats.
[*]Furthermore, in traditional farms, crops are eaten by insects and animals, forcing some damaged crops to be disposed of. In vertical farms, they are protected from this. Water and nutrients can also be measured out exactly, so nothing is wasted.
[*]Exotic fruit and vegetables can be grown anywhere, instead of being farmed in suitable climates and then transported to their customers.

So that makes them immune to things such as famine, blight, plagues of insects, dust storms, external agents that can affect and influence massive spaces open to the elements but not easily controlled regulated environments where everything can be measured and ran to exacting standards that would impossible to enact in non-closed environments.

Now as to my original statements, I am not failing to see the forest for the trees, quite the opposite in fact, I am ignoring every individual tree to show you simply what is and what was. People who lived in hunter gatherer societies 20,000 years ago did not have a quality of life that would be considered in anyway superior to a human being who lived during the industrial revolution in Europe. The people who lived through the original industrial revolution would not have lived a life of considerable quality but undoubtedly their existence would be preferable over living as a nomadic forager or hunter, being entirely at the mercy of the elements and the immediately available resources in the area being the only thing you could rely on. Thanks to agriculture, cities and civilizations grew. Crops and animals could now be farmed to meet more people's needs and that in turn led to advances all across society allowing people to have permanent domiciles, allowing them the opportunity to teach and develop communicational standards such as writing and language.

These advantages have never stopped developing. Thus someone living in 2022 will by every measurable standard on average live a superior quality of life than what would have been possible for the mass majority of humans living only one lifespan prior that time. 80 years ago Europe was embroiled in a conflict that would see over 20,000.000 deaths on the continent alone, such a loss of life on such scale had never occurred before in all of recorded human history. In fact so many people died in the space of mere 7 year conflict that it would outweigh the total number of living humans on the planet before modern agriculture took hold a mere 10,000 years ago. Despite that however humanity is now in a better place than it has ever been, we have access to advances technology and medicine that would have been impossible to explain to someone born in the era of World War 2. The horrors of that period of human history all that we did all the lives that were lost that was perhaps our lowest point as a species and you wish to infer that somehow the challenges of today are more stark? No. We have conflict yes, we have societal issues and our technology is limited it cannot solve every issue.

That though is not the argument I am making, I will never claim that the world of 2022 is without fault but it is still the greatest era of all our history to live in. By every reasonable metric that one's quality of life can be measured every century in the past 1000 years would be preferable to the one that preceded it. Living in 1500 would be slightly preferable than living in 1400, living in the 1600's would be slightly more preferable than living in the 1500's living in latter half of the 1700's would be more preferable to living in the former. Living in the last quarter of the 1800's would be preferable to living in the first three. Living in the last 20 years of the 20th century would be preferable to living in the other 80. The rate of change is increasing but undeniable, there is no living human being that would if given all the data conclude that their chances of living a decent life would be worse now than they were during the Great Depression of the 1920's or the great wars of the 20th century, we are having this discussion separated by thousands of miles of land sea and air, while we have it I am wearing fabrics that didn't even exist 30 years ago, I am eating food that would have been impossible to grow en masse or to distribute at low cost a century before, I am living in a home powered by a renewable source of energy that is heated, cooled, maintained and contains technology that has undoubtedly provided me with a quality life far superior to any that could have been enjoyed by any living human on the entire planet, regardless of race, creed, wealth or societal status a century before me and I am far from the outlier in this situation.

All of this to say that life in 2022 may not be perfect but it is in every reasonable measure better than what came before it, you have a lower chance of being illiterate and a higher chance of receiving an education, you have a lower chance of dying many preventable illnesses and ailments that killed millions of your ancestors, even in abject poverty you can easily access things like the Internet or modern medicine that simply did not exist in previous eras.

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of ... n-5-charts

https://sustainabilitymag.com/diversity ... ustainable

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/02/worl ... the%20goal.

With all that said I'd say it is very likely that someone living one human lifespan from now will on average have a higher quality of life than someone alive now. It is merely following the data.
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