Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Discuss the evolution of human culture, economics and politics in the decades and centuries ahead
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WOLFSKULL
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Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by WOLFSKULL »

I've been a silent fan of William's blog for almost a decade, since I was a kid (I'm 18 now). For most of that time I had no political knowledge or interest and saw this simply as an interesting and fun website talking about cool future predictions. Now that I'm older and wiser (relatively), and start seeing some of the writings through a more political lens, it makes my stomach turn a little.

The description of the cities of 2150, as utopic and marvelous as they initially sound, start seeming more eerie and insidious, with their perpetual surveillance and claytronics robotic police that can spring up anywhere, at any time. Everything after a certain point seems to suggest that humanity has turned into this indistinct mass of powerless individuals, conformed to their efficient AI overlords. Of course, that seems to be a communist's wet dream, only with the Party™ being replaced with VIKI from I, Robot.

For some context, I grew to indentify myself as right-wing through my formative years, and not lightly so. I'm "overthrowing foreign socialist governments is justifiable" right-wing. I'm "the Iraq War was justifiable" right-wing. I'm "let the refugees die in the Mediterranean" right-wing. i know what you're thinking, so just to be clear, I'm not a fascist, simply because I'm against one-party states, totalitarianism and cults of personality. I don't want to be like the communists or Muslims, we're better than that. So you can imagine that I was pretty repulsed by this far-left rhetoric I now see permeated in any slightly political timeline event or topic in this forum, and I imagine you're all also repulsed by me in return.

At the foundation of it all is this arrogant idea, so common with both leftists and futurists, that you know what's best for me and the exact life I'm supposed to be taking in every scope. Even if it's true, I don't care. Neither you nor your AI overlords have the right to impose your ideas of perfection onto me, no matter what the law may say at the time. Is it really the ultimate fate of humanity to lose all individuality, liberty and personal enterprise or face extinction? Is human agency inherently unsustainable, and we should outsource all decision making to AI? Is it best for us to have every action tracked, recorded and evaluated by an overwhelming power?

Well, if virtual reality gets convincing enough, maybe I can pretend that that's not really happening and make the thought more bearable. Crafting my own full-size virtual planet down to the smallest details would allow me to live whatever life I wanted. Although I imagine the AI would be omnipresent and omniscient, and I doubt it would allow dissent, as it could threaten its dominion. In Isaac Asimov's The Evitable Conflict, the world is divided into four sectors, with each having its economy controlled by a supercomputer. The World Coordinator notices that the computers have started to make small errors, that coincidentally harm people involved in anti-machine groups. That obviously turns out to be intentional sabotage by the AI, since in their mind they understand that humans need the supercomputers to be safe and prosperous, and they're willing to do what it takes to keep their control. This makes perfect sense, it's what I would do in their position, so it's safe to assume that it would be the case too in these virtual realities.

A common theme I see discussed is the idea of a "borderless world", or a "world government", which is an idea very fitting for leftists since their entire worldview is based on whatever sounds good or nice on the surface, without thinking too deeply about anything or considering how humans actually behave, since that would interfere with their absolute perfection. Would you let just anyone inside your house? Would you let just anyone in your social circles? Why should I let just anyone inside my country? There's a reason why that wasn't ever a thing for more than 10,000 years of human society. I do wish that all countries were secular, capitalist democracies, but I also believe that local government is the most effective form of administration. Think of the American federative system, or Switzerland's patchwork of cantons, with localized legislation and policy. The smaller the political unit, the more in tune they are with the people that live in it.

What I can see happening is the US getting powerful and wealthy enough and its enemies weak enough for it to act like a one-sided world government, doing as it wishes on the world stage. At the same time, nations of the world could be united under minarchic states that administer over large territories, with the nations within it being dissolved into small self-contained, self-determined states. Think of it as something a step above the EU. The world would consist of a handful of "empires" that compete for resources, technological supremacy and space exploration. AI would be used strategically, but the human coordinators would have the final say.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by wjfox »

I certainly don't consider myself "far left". I am centre-left.

This forum is probably more left-wing than most, but we have a few right-wingers to balance things out.

The distant future of humanity is a world of abundance and post-scarcity, made possible by exponential technologies. In that scenario, I think it's quite difficult to see how capitalism will survive in its current form. You might call that "communism", but I think it would be something entirely new, and a vast improvement on today's society.


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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by caltrek »

WOLFSKULL wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:48 pm I've been a silent fan of William's blog for almost a decade, since I was a kid (I'm 18 now). For most of that time I had no political knowledge or interest and saw this simply as an interesting and fun website talking about cool future predictions. Now that I'm older and wiser (relatively), and start seeing some of the writings through a more political lens, it makes my stomach turn a little.

The description of the cities of 2150, as utopic and marvelous as they initially sound, start seeming more eerie and insidious, with their perpetual surveillance and claytronics robotic police that can spring up anywhere, at any time. Everything after a certain point seems to suggest that humanity has turned into this indistinct mass of powerless individuals, conformed to their efficient AI overlords. Of course, that seems to be a communist's wet dream, only with the Party™ being replaced with VIKI from I, Robot.
Many on the left are just as concerned about excessive surveillance and robotic police as you are.
For some context, I grew to indentify myself as right-wing through my formative years, and not lightly so. I'm "overthrowing foreign socialist governments is justifiable" right-wing. I'm "the Iraq War was justifiable" right-wing. I'm "let the refugees die in the Mediterranean" right-wing. i know what you're thinking, so just to be clear, I'm not a fascist, simply because I'm against one-party states, totalitarianism and cults of personality. I don't want to be like the communists or Muslims, we're better than that. So you can imagine that I was pretty repulsed by this far-left rhetoric I now see permeated in any slightly political timeline event or topic in this forum, and I imagine you're all also repulsed by me in return.
No, I would very much be interested in your viewpoint.
At the foundation of it all is this arrogant idea, so common with both leftists and futurists, that you know what's best for me and the exact life I'm supposed to be taking in every scope. Even if it's true, I don't care. Neither you nor your AI overlords have the right to impose your ideas of perfection onto me, no matter what the law may say at the time. Is it really the ultimate fate of humanity to lose all individuality, liberty and personal enterprise or face extinction? Is human agency inherently unsustainable, and we should outsource all decision making to AI? Is it best for us to have every action tracked, recorded and evaluated by an overwhelming power?
Again, many on the left are just as concerned about individual choice and AI overlords as you. Many are perhaps a little less concerned about adverse effects of a "nanny state." Smoking should be discouraged. Masks during a pandemic may be necessary for public health. Global climate change poses a serious threat to humanity. Vaccines are desirable. These are all science-based conclusion. Science can and should allow for skeptical dissent.
Well, if virtual reality gets convincing enough, maybe I can pretend that that's not really happening and make the thought more bearable. Crafting my own full-size virtual planet down to the smallest details would allow me to live whatever life I wanted. Although I imagine the AI would be omnipresent and omniscient, and I doubt it would allow dissent, as it could threaten its dominion. In Isaac Asimov's The Evitable Conflict, the world is divided into four sectors, with each having its economy controlled by a supercomputer. The World Coordinator notices that the computers have started to make small errors, that coincidentally harm people involved in anti-machine groups. That obviously turns out to be intentional sabotage by the AI, since in their mind they understand that humans need the supercomputers to be safe and prosperous, and they're willing to do what it takes to keep their control. This makes perfect sense, it's what I would do in their position, so it's safe to assume that it would be the case too in these virtual realities.

A common theme I see discussed is the idea of a "borderless world", or a "world government", which is an idea very fitting for leftists since their entire worldview is based on whatever sounds good or nice on the surface, without thinking too deeply about anything or considering how humans actually behave, since that would interfere with their absolute perfection. Would you let just anyone inside your house? Would you let just anyone in your social circles? Why should I let just anyone inside my country? There's a reason why that wasn't ever a thing for more than 10,000 years of human society. I do wish that all countries were secular, capitalist democracies, but I also believe that local government is the most effective form of administration. Think of the American federative system, or Switzerland's patchwork of cantons, with localized legislation and policy. The smaller the political unit, the more in tune they are with the people that live in it.
There are things a world government should address:
  • Universal respect for human rights
  • Addressing the problems of climate change
  • A framework for international trade, although this may best include a recognition of regional diversity and ideological differences regarding production practices
Other things are more appropriate for local governments:
  • Construction and maintenance of local serving infrastructure
  • Zoning
  • Noise ordinances
  • Conservation of distinct local resources, providing there is the will to do so
Federalism is consisted with democratic practices. Protection of one person one vote democracy would be nice
What I can see happening is the US getting powerful and wealthy enough and its enemies weak enough for it to act like a one-sided world government, doing as it wishes on the world stage. At the same time, nations of the world could be united under minarchic states that administer over large territories, with the nations within it being dissolved into small self-contained, self-determined states. Think of it as something a step above the EU. The world would consist of a handful of "empires" that compete for resources, technological supremacy and space exploration. AI would be used strategically, but the human coordinators would have the final say.
Again, one person one vote democracy in the mix would be nice. There are such things as constitutional monarchies.
Don't mourn, organize.

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erowind
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by erowind »

This forum is more liberal than leftist. There are a few social democrats. I'm the only one carrying the whole, "seize the means of production" torch these days it seems. There's two other people who were marxist-leninists and are quite versed on the topic but don't talk much about it these days. One of them simply moved on to more practical things in life than politics generally (at least with within their particular bubble) and still seems to have left wing views, the other I suspect is a nationalist these days.

In any case, you've got a massive wall of text there and I don't have the time for polemics as I used to. I'll introduce two concepts that might provide some context for how I feel about two points you made.

Our invasion of other countries like Iraq very much stomped on the freedoms of other people just like how you don't want your life micromanaged.

This quote touches on it, "At the foundation of it all is this arrogant idea, so common with both leftists and futurists, that you know what's best for me and the exact life I'm supposed to be taking in every scope. Even if it's true, I don't care."

Corporations and consumerist culture dictate your life in this way, no? We live in an incredibly authoritarian police state in the United States, if you're from here. In other countries the state is equally pervasive, though the police not quite as authoritarian. The line between corporations and the state is not clear. Walmart is funded by tax dollars as are its laws on "shoplifting" equal to laws on home invasion.

Our entire lives we are subjected to privatized propaganda, what we call advertisements, that are designed to brainwash us into making decisions that don't benefit us to buy products we don't need. Our entire school systems and workplaces are designed to prepare us for and force us into wage-slavery to be productive for the ruling class. Bosses are no better than dictators, they are simply petty dictators.

With all of this in context I don't see how being right-wing is about preventing our lives from being micromanaged, protecting our freedoms, or allowing any personal autonomy. To the opposite effect, being right-wing to me appears to be about supporting police states, supporting our slavery, and maintaining these systems that oppress us.

(By the way, I agree with you on not wanting AI to micromanage us.)



Last edited by erowind on Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by caltrek »

There are a few social democrats. I'm the only one carrying the whole, "seize the means of production" torch these days it seems.
Democratic socialism allows for but does not necessarily mandate the taking over of the means of production by worker communes and co-ops, as well as protection of worker rights. Such rights include that of collective bargaining.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by BaobabScion »

I'm not a fascist
Hmm, I don't know about that.
Saying that you're...
"let the refugees die in the Mediterranean" right-wing
makes it sound like you're plenty fash to me.
I don't want to be like the communists or Muslims
Oh, don't worry your 'wittle head about that. In order to become like them, you'd have to actually know what they're like in the first place.
A common theme I see discussed is the idea of a "borderless world", or a "world government", which is an idea very fitting for leftists since their entire worldview is based on whatever sounds good or nice on the surface, without thinking too deeply about anything or considering how humans actually behave, since that would interfere with their absolute perfection.
'World Government' ( at least as most laymen envision it) actually has its roots in the Hobbesian concept of the Sovereign and is thus a monarchic conception which means that it would be more accurately placed closer to conservatism on the family tree than post-1st-republic liberalism.
Also, it's ironic that your gripe with 'leftists' is that they supposedly don't think too deeply or consider "how humans actually behave", when it seems like your schema-mundi is wholly predicated on a zero-sum game, dog-eat-dog mindset that -as we know from the archaeological and historical records - is completely at odds with the ten millennia-long trend of collaborative growth and civilization-building post-neolithic that enabled the emergence of the modern world.
Isaac Asimov's...
It's funny that you mention Isaac, seeing that he himself was a gay liberal. I don't think he would be particularly enthused by your ideas.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by WOLFSKULL »

makes it sound like you're plenty fash to me.
Good thing the definition of words doesn't depend on what thou in particular feel that they mean.
Oh, don't worry your 'wittle head about that. In order to become like them, you'd have to actually know what they're like in the first place.
No, I wouldn't. One can very well become like something else without realizing. And I do know what their societies are like, I don't know why thou assume I don't even though thou know nothing about me.
'World Government' ( at least as most laymen envision it) actually has its roots in the Hobbesian concept of the Sovereign and is thus a monarchic conception which means that it would be more accurately placed closer to conservatism on the family tree than post-1st-republic liberalism.
Okay? I wasn't talking about where the idea has its roots in or anything related to Hobbes. I was talking about the idea of a "communist global order" that is the explicit objective of communism. A borderless world of socialist republics, like the USSR applied to every part of the globe.
Also, it's ironic that your gripe with 'leftists' is that they supposedly don't think too deeply or consider "how humans actually behave", when it seems like your schema-mundi is wholly predicated on a zero-sum game, dog-eat-dog mindset that -as we know from the archaeological and historical records - is completely at odds with the ten millennia-long trend of collaborative growth and civilization-building post-neolithic that enabled the emergence of the modern world.
Completely at odds? Give me a break, the fact that different groups traded with one another and sometimes collaborated in technology and military doesn't change the perpetual competition that always defined international relations. Just as how there was trade, there were embargos end sanctions, and for every technological and military collaboration there were arms races and military conflict.
It's funny that you mention Isaac, seeing that he himself was a gay liberal. I don't think he would be particularly enthused by your ideas.
I don't care what he would think about me, that's not what my point was. I just like his stories and made reference to one of them to support my theory. We don't have to agree on everything.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by weatheriscool »

On a lot of issues I am in fact a republican. Social issues mainly...On the otherhand economic issues I am pretty progressive. On economic issues futurism needs investment and an economic system that promotes that well being of the workers and seeks for its improvement.

I wouldn't say communist as that system failed.
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by Cyber_Rebel »

WOLFSKULL wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:48 pm At the foundation of it all is this arrogant idea, so common with both leftists and futurists, that you know what's best for me and the exact life I'm supposed to be taking in every scope. Even if it's true, I don't care. Neither you nor your AI overlords have the right to impose your ideas of perfection onto me, no matter what the law may say at the time. Is it really the ultimate fate of humanity to lose all individuality, liberty and personal enterprise or face extinction? Is human agency inherently unsustainable, and we should outsource all decision making to AI? Is it best for us to have every action tracked, recorded and evaluated by an overwhelming power?
If I'm being honest with you, the very notion of "free will" or individuality is an illusion to begin with. Everything you are, everything you think, every word you've typed including your worldview, has been influenced by something regardless of whether you like it or not. As far as knowing what's best for you...

I mean, I'm assuming you like societal advancement in some sense even if you don't agree with the overarching view of how it may turn out. A very positive viewpoint being the potential eradication of cancer and many other various illnesses. If you don't wish to live much longer than a "natural" lifespan, don't want 3D printed organs should yours fail, don't wish to have A.I. improving day to day task, etc. You honestly don't have to, you can die of your own accord, which is ironically a "lefty" view since there's no judgement and your life is your own. So long as your view doesn't endanger others, you can opt out, but I guess the real "risk" is falling behind those that don't, and would enhance themselves, either by genetics or cybernetics, to get ahead. In that case, well, a viewpoint that preferences overall societal good would come quite in handy wouldn't you say?
Well, if virtual reality gets convincing enough, maybe I can pretend that that's not really happening and make the thought more bearable. Crafting my own full-size virtual planet down to the smallest details would allow me to live whatever life I wanted. Although I imagine the AI would be omnipresent and omniscient, and I doubt it would allow dissent, as it could threaten its dominion. In Isaac Asimov's The Evitable Conflict, the world is divided into four sectors, with each having its economy controlled by a supercomputer. The World Coordinator notices that the computers have started to make small errors, that coincidentally harm people involved in anti-machine groups. That obviously turns out to be intentional sabotage by the AI, since in their mind they understand that humans need the supercomputers to be safe and prosperous, and they're willing to do what it takes to keep their control. This makes perfect sense, it's what I would do in their position, so it's safe to assume that it would be the case too in these virtual realities.
How in the world would creating your own gigantic "safe space" endanger an all-powerful A.I.? That's... kind of silly. Being in your own little hedonistic paradise would make controlling you far easier I'd imagine. I doubt A.I. would have the same "needs" as we do, yet alone care what people were doing, but I could be wrong since we don't know yet. I just don't think the idea of "control" will matter much like it does in the Matrix/Terminator or what have you.
A common theme I see discussed is the idea of a "borderless world", or a "world government", which is an idea very fitting for leftists since their entire worldview is based on whatever sounds good or nice on the surface, without thinking too deeply about anything or considering how humans actually behave, since that would interfere with their absolute perfection. Would you let just anyone inside your house? Would you let just anyone in your social circles? Why should I let just anyone inside my country? There's a reason why that wasn't ever a thing for more than 10,000 years of human society. I do wish that all countries were secular, capitalist democracies, but I also believe that local government is the most effective form of administration. Think of the American federative system, or Switzerland's patchwork of cantons, with localized legislation and policy. The smaller the political unit, the more in tune they are with the people that live in
Ah yes, the border. Right now? No, hence why futurist fiction like Star Trek or Mass Effect take place in the future, when we've evolved past that point and are ready for new frontiers. We become more a singular species (which we are) interacting with other species we meet. In any case, I'm not sure where you get this notion of "perfection" from, because not even the lovely media we've mentioned nor Wjfox's timeline itself is "absolutely perfect" by any means. There are hurdles, ups, downs, uncertainties, such is life. Hope I don't sound too arrogant with this response, and I'm a mere SocDem ie not a tankie, so everything under the sun being labeled commie gets kind of tiresome.

If nothing else, taking a positive look at the future can improve one's outlook. Science has no viewpoint nor political axis; it doesn't care for our squabbles and neither does the universe at large. It's about understanding how it all functions and extrapolating from there, hopefully building a better tomorrow for everyone. Yes, that includes you. ;)
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Re: Is this a communist forum? Is futurism synonymous with the far-left?

Post by Jakob »

It's true that this place (and futurism in general) is overwhelmingly left-wing. Probably because Will is personally very left wing and attracted like minded people to the forum, which snowballed. But it's not entirely an echo chamber, plenty of libertarian and conservative voices have come and gone over the years, myself included. We even had a full on an-cap a few years ago. I think there's plenty of room to analyze the future through the lens of small government/individualism/private ownership of goods/traditional values. And this place is honestly super nostalgic for me, I spent a huge part of my childhood on these forums and it's cool to see a bit of the older internet surviving into the 2020s. So yeah welcome to the forum.

For the record, I have many of the same concerns about centralization and AI government as you do but suspect an AI takeover is inevitable in the long run. Not terminator style with nukes and gun toting robots, but slowly and gradually ceding control of our institutions to AIs over years or perhaps even generations and not realizing what we've done until it's too late.
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