Is Civilization Collapsing?

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MythOfProgress
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Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »



seems to me things have gotten bad enough that even Kurzgesagt have had to entertain this notion(although without the due dilligence and respect to its audience.) suppose I'll save myself the trouble of responding to this in kind and let mr. melonio dismantle their poor reasoning.


Here's the text if you can't access the article:
In a newly published video, the science YouTube channel ‘Kurzgesagt — In a Nutshell’, known for the high production value and adorable presentation of their videos, tackles the immensely complex topic of civilizational collapse, managing to put a positive spin on the death of ’99 percent of the human population.’

The titular question of the video, Is Civilization on the Brink of Collapse?, is never answered and barely mentioned at all. There is no discussion of the likelihood or timeframe of such a collapse, the underlying causes, or what can be done to prepare and survive. Instead, the Kurzgesagt team chooses to argue that, as long as humanity somehow survives and rebuilds its industrial capacities afterward, such a devastating collapse of society wouldn’t be so bad after all.

The video ignores some fundamental realities of climate change, the nature of our society, and the capitalist systems permeating it. Even more troubling, and the focus of this article, is the complete and utter lack of a critical evaluation of the way we have organized economic activity, and our relations to each other and the ecological systems sustaining us.
Comfort and abundance for some

The video begins with beautiful images of the Roman civilization, which is presented as a beacon of human progress and sophistication:

‘It was the pinnacle of human advancement. Its citizens enjoyed the benefits of central heating, concrete, double glazing, banking, international trade, and upward social mobility,’ the cheerful narrator explains.

This conveniently omits the true foundations of the Roman Empire: endless and relentless conquest, imperialism, and the subjugation of hundreds of ‘uncivilized’ peoples and millions of ‘barbarians.’ These were ultimately used for the only thing they were supposedly good for: slavery. Sometimes, they were allowed to die for the entertainment of the Roman people.

It seems appropriate for Kurzgesagt, a channel built on the philosophy of neoliberalism, the capitalist mantra of endless growth and progress, and the unwavering belief in technology as the savior of the human race, to conveniently overlook the cost of what they call ‘the pinnacle of human advancement.’ As we will see, this line of thought is evident throughout the video.

‘Today our cities stretch for thousands of square kilometers, we travel the skies, our communication is instant. Industrial agriculture with engineered high yield plants, efficient machinery, and high potency fertilizer feeds billions of people. Modern medicine gives us the longest lifespan we’ve ever had, while Industrial technology gives us an unprecedented level of comfort and abundance’, the narrator proudly announces, in a tirade on the glory of human progress and ingenuity.

Comfort and abundance? Here, I find a popular anarchist quote, of which I am quite fond, appropriate: ‘Do thine eyes not bleed at the sight of injustice?’

In the offices of the Kurzgesagt team, they quite clearly do not. Comfort and abundance for whom? What is really meant here is comfort and abundance for the Western world. And how was this wealth acquired? Well, pretty much in the same way as the Romans did. Conquest and colonialization, slavery, and the subjugation of ‘less-than-humans’, with its modern-day equivalent of forced-upon neoliberal policies, carried out through institutions such as the World Bank and the IMF and proliferating the constant exploitation of the Global South.

The abundance we enjoy comes at a price. And this price is not (yet) paid by us. Kurzgesagt acknowledges the heavy toll on the climate (the solution to which, as this video titled, We WILL Fix Climate Change shows, they see in the ‘right sort of capitalism,’ namely ‘green capitalism’, and unfounded hope in technological progress), but constantly neglects the historical and current suffering that the Global South has endured and continues to endure so that we can enjoy ‘the longest lifespans we’ve ever had.’ Again, modern medicine for whom? How many Africans received COVID-19 vaccinations while Europeans and Americans got their third or even fourth shot?
‘What if it ruined our chances of enjoying a flourishing future as a multiplanetary species?’

Instead of answering the question in the title or discussing the disastrous consequences of a true global-scale collapse, Kurzgesagt asks, ‘What if a collapse were so deeply destructive that we were unable to re-industrialize again? What if it ruined our chances of enjoying a flourishing future as a multi-planetary species?’

Yes, indeed, that is precisely what we should be concerned about. While, even now, hundreds of millions of children suffer from malnutrition and the imminent threat of death, and we cannot even imagine the anguish a global collapse would cause, our primary concern should most definitely be the continuation of the industrial complex and the impediment a global collapse would pose to the prospect of colonizing other planets and continuing our exploitation there.

Here, the continuation of human civilization and its future glory is presented as some kind of noble goal to strive for. While the possible death of a large majority of the population can be dealt with, as civilization would, at least according to Kurzgesagt, most likely survive such an event, what cannot, ever, be dealt with is the end of technological progress and capitalist growth. We will stop when we rule the universe.

The following few minutes of the video discuss the human race’s resilience in the face of all disasters, such as the bubonic plague or the American murder of more than 100,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. While Kurzgesagt acknowledges that a global-scale collapse in today’s world, with its historically unprecedented potential for destruction and death, would be unlike any other event in human history, comparisons to ancient civilizations are still drawn, which are then used to support the claim that ‘we will recover no matter what.’

These claims are based on factors such as the vastly increased agricultural output of modern crops or the supposedly inevitable survival of key industrial technologies in the case of collapse. Kurzgesagt’s main concern then falls to the availability of easy-access fossil fuels in the post-collapse world. Not a single word is spared to the thought that, maybe, re-industrialization, ignoring for now even its feasibility, might not be a good idea. That, perhaps the very thing that would cause a civilizational collapse in the first place, namely the burning of fossil fuels and the exploitation of resources in the name of consumerism and growth, should not be resumed immediately following a civilizational collapse killing billions.

I might imagine, for it is not discussed in the video, that Kurzgesagt would respond to this criticism along the lines of green capitalism, a higher focus on the development of sustainable technologies (‘technological hopium’), and other neoliberal ideologies, rather than acknowledging the root cause of many of the problems we as a society face today— capitalism.

The line ‘…so, we should stop using easy-to-access coal, so it can serve as a civilization insurance in case something bad happens,’ I believe, does not even merit a response. It demonstrates an utter ignorance to the realities of the world we inhabit and its economic systems and, ultimately, can only be interpreted as a patronizing attempt at unfounded optimism and a defense of the status quo. There are no lessons to be learned here, no critical evaluations or even thoughts, no attempts at improvement, no examination of alternatives, no, let us just get right back to doing what we have done before.
Do not attempt change

The video concludes in a manner rather typical of Kurzgesagt videos: ‘The good news is that it is still early enough to prepare for and to mitigate these risks. We just need to actually do it.’

No, Kurzgesagt, it is not ‘still early enough.’ We have long passed that point. We will most definitely not be able to stop climate change, as you so pompously announced in a previous video (a thorough analysis of the many shortcomings of the arguments presented there can be found in this video by BadEmpanada). We will suffer and many of us will die. There is no technology that can save us, no carbon capturing scheme, no asteroid mining, and no fusion reactor. A disease cannot be cured by the disease. The only thing that could, as Kurzgesagt calls it, ‘mitigate the risks,’ would be an utterly new way of thinking about economics and the conduct of human relations and activities. A system not founded on the maxims of growth for growth’s sake, endless consumption, the satisfaction of non-existing needs, and the protection of private property and existing power relations.

If there is one thing I can sincerely hope for, one thing worth fighting for, it is that the post-collapse world will not look like the one before it. Perhaps, a more appropriate conclusion to Kurzgesagt’s video would have been: ‘This video was sponsored by neoliberal ideologists and institutions. Do nothing, do not attempt change, and, most importantly, trust the system. We care about you.’
R.I.P Ziba.
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erowind
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by erowind »

.
Last edited by erowind on Sun Jul 06, 2025 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

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I have already discussed this (mainly with Joe00uk, who, too, was very pessimistic) and can only repeat my intuition-based humble opinion: YES, as soon as you reword "collapse" into something like "deep complex systemic crisis that has no any solution within the framework of currently existing civilization". I also agree that point of no return has already passed (IMHO sometime in 1960s-1970s) and everything that is happening now and will happen in coming decades (demography, ecology, depletion of CHEAP natural resources, geopolitical conflicts disguised as existential struggle of "freedom and progress" against "tyranny and bigotry", real tyranny and bigotry mushrooming everywhere...) is already just details and nuances, even though painful (or fatal) for those involved and affected and thrillingly interesting for future historians.

Does it mean TOTAL civilizational collapse? I have no idea (or, to be honest, just too lazy to write a wall of text with my ideas). Perhaps, and likely, civilization will survive the crisis and come out of it qualitatively transformed (again, too vague, but don't ask me for details, I don't know). This must not give any comfort to generation(s) living today. They have a lot to go through, to despair and suffer (including literally). Modern "progressives" do not (afraid to?) understand this and view today's problems as a mere irritating fluctuations on the road into a brighter future: you just need to get rid of Trump (already done!) and Putin (soon, very soon, just stand with Ukraine and send them more weapons!), then deprogram all their followers, then cancel all racists and sexists, then tweak something here and there, and then... then... Singularity, Universal Basic Income, average lifespan 120, GDP per capita 200 thousand, the happy forty-year-old bearded youths riding gyroscooters through the streets, spinning spinners on their fingers, and when they get bored, launching funny and creative startups...

This will not happen. The coming decades will be ones of existential crisis and despair (especially for bearded youths on gyroscooters). And the following decades and centuries... damn, who knows? Smart Romans could see their society heading right into the abyss, but they couldn't have predicted Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution.
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Certain Russian user »

PS unfortunately I have no time machine. The dark side of me eagerly wants to read what daddy WjFox and his team will write here in the 2030-2040s... so far, I'm only left with imagination and analogies:

1962: "How are you descendants? Did you already visited the moons of Jupiter?"
2022: "Save the water! Do not wash the whole body, only the face, under the armpits and in the groin to annoy Putin!"
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Certain Russian user »

PPS (after some thought)
MythOfProgress wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:07 am The video begins with beautiful images of the Roman civilization, which is presented as a beacon of human progress and sophistication:

‘It was the pinnacle of human advancement. Its citizens enjoyed the benefits of central heating, concrete, double glazing, banking, international trade, and upward social mobility,’ the cheerful narrator explains.
It's very revealing, isn't it? When typical modern office hamster thinking of Ancient Rome, he surely imagines himself being the senator in a snow-white toga, solving serious issues. If not a senator, then at least someone with access to those luxuries of "central heating, double glazing, and international trade". No one imagines himself a 12-years-old (but already very experienced) slave prostitute or 25-years-old (but already toothless and completely worn-out in general) worker in the silver mines. Imagining coliseum and gladiators, almost everyone sees themselves in the stands, not on the sand. Even those imagining themselves gladiators, they are surely renown champions, not some noname wretches dying in trash battles just to fill the pause till the main show...
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

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erowind wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:02 am Something I like about you MythOfProgress, is that unlike many people on r/collapse you're collapse aware, and even though it seems you're convinced that collapse can't be stopped at this point. I've never seen you delve into the mire of overpopulation talk and court ecofascism. Endless growth on a finite world is the problem. Classism is the problem. Ecological exploitation is the problem. And thankyou for posting a critique of Kurzgesagt too, their channel grates on me anytime I watch it these days.
nice to see another frequenter/lurker of the sub, its definitely changed throughout the years and been getting more of an influx of new members which could explain a lot of folks you've mentioned not being at the 4th(awareness of the interconnections between many problems) or 5th level of awareness when it comes to collapse(awareness the predicament encompasses all aspects of life).

it is a little difficult bringing up the topic of overpopulation without the mention of violence inevitably cropping up but its necessary to try to disavow anything that advocates for being anti-immigrant/racist or anything that leans fascist in general. while i appreciate the sentiment, im not the real/original mythofprogress acc, just someone that named myself the same coincidentally(or so i think, probably rooted in my subconcious somewhere). as someone who's enjoyed Kurzgesagt's past videos, it's a shame they've fallen for the trap of "growth", but can't expect much from a mainstream infotainment channel that's been sponsored by the gates foundation.
R.I.P Ziba.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by bretbernhoft »

No, "civilization" is not collapsing. It is transmuting into our image of the near future. Old, well-established interests are collapsing, but not "civilization".
I am a JavaScript Developer, who loves learning; especially when solving challenges as part of making unique applications for Internet users throughout the global Web. I began my journey in technology with WordPress and Web Analytics. More recently I've been working with React, TypeScript, Tailwind CSS, JavaScript, Vite, Node, Git, Netlify, Quickbase and RESTful JSON APIs.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by caltrek »

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

W.B. Yeats - 1919

Source: https://poets.org/poem/second-coming
"This poem is in the public domain."
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

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No, "civilization" is not collapsing.
in the context of the video, which doesn't really answer the question for the most part- the interconnected systems that we rely on for survival(if not thrive) are in a state of decline, plenty of ecologists have witnessed our biodiversity collapsing, the fact that we are experiencing a severe economic contraction and that our population levels is virtually peaking and close to outpacing the resources needed for survival all makes this a statement of fact, not opinion. this is ecological overshoot in the process.

psychologically it's difficult to come to terms with this as it essentially means the death of all the things we know and love, both figuratively and literally- but if nobody is pointing this out we will be left worse off than we would be if we didn't know -im not here to convince you(at least for now) but to plant a thought in your head for the future as the times go on- eventually this is something we'll witness in action as our ability to procure food and water become increasingly limited leading to widespread famine.
It is transmuting into our image of the near future
keep in mind, not everyone shares the same techno-utopian ideals.
Old, well-established interests are collapsing, but not "civilization"
like the fossil fuel industry for instance? you're not entirely wrong, but its definite that they've already "won", and that their collapse means our crisis. they've made billions of dollars and used their resources to peddle exaggerations, misinformation and burying the truth, the people behind these organizations have already made their decisions, and decided that our lives are mostly forfeit in the pursuit of money.
R.I.P Ziba.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by bretbernhoft »

I wish you the best of luck.
I am a JavaScript Developer, who loves learning; especially when solving challenges as part of making unique applications for Internet users throughout the global Web. I began my journey in technology with WordPress and Web Analytics. More recently I've been working with React, TypeScript, Tailwind CSS, JavaScript, Vite, Node, Git, Netlify, Quickbase and RESTful JSON APIs.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

I wish you the best of luck.
ditto. cheers.
R.I.P Ziba.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by R8Z »

Image
We have a saying for these times of gloom and doom: "Enquanto uns choram, outros vendem lenços". :lol:

A tangential, but interesting index: https://www.gallup.com/394505/indicator ... index.aspx

Also this one, even better: https://news.gallup.com/poll/397286/poo ... -high.aspx
And, as always, bye bye.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by wjfox »

MythOfProgress wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:14 am we are experiencing a severe economic contraction

Erm...


Image
Tadasuke

Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Tadasuke »

No, civilization is not collapsing.
- worldwide average GDP per capita is doubling every 20 years
- average prices of top 50 most used resources halve every 14 years
- extreme poverty and poverty are diminishing
- more and more middle-class citizens ascend to higher-class
- hunger and starvation are significantly lessening, food is becoming more abundant and cheaper (more people die from obesity than from malnutrition)
- water is becoming more abundant and cheaper (thanks to clever tech), new radar scanning techniques can reveal immense reservoirs of water under the most barren and impoverished territories on Earth
- there are less wars and war deaths worldwide
- life expectancy is increasing everywhere except USA and Russia, by 10 years in Africa between 2000 and 2019
- automation is increasing exponentially
- productivity worldwide is improving significantly and rather quickly
- the number of scientific papers and patents is increasing exponentially
- number of teenage pregnancies is dropping in every country
- affordability of decent housing worldwide is improving and the number of meters squared per person increases every decade (the average new U.S. house floor space increased by 2.5x since the 1950s and there are 25% less people in an average house)
- rainfall in Africa increased during the last 30 years
- there are more trees in the world than 30 or 100 years ago (thanks to planting and more CO2)
- Sahara desert is shrinking (the opposite that people were terrified of 30 or 40 years ago) and new trees are being planted
- the Great Coral Reef is flourishing
- the ozone hole is getting smaller, the ozone layer is rebuilding
- there is still a lot of fossil fuels left
- yields of various crops are steadily improving
- endangered species are being saved and they multiply
- cars that run on batteries are exponentially becoming more popular and widespread (batteries are still getting cheaper and better), global EV fleet is about 25 million cars this year
- literacy rate is still going up, especially among females
- the number of high school and university degrees is increasing worldwide
- computing power per $ is improving by 1000x every 20 years and there is no end of computing growth in sight
- the number of objects launched into space is increasing exponentially and rapidly (not only by the USA)
- cumulative millions of miles driven by prototype autonomous vehicles grows exponentially
- access to information has been democratized
- greenhouse gas emissions by developed countries is going down, not up
- efficiency of economies is going up, not down, there is more work done per kWh
- new nuclear power plants (including modular, mini ones), solar, wind, geothermal and water power plants are constantly being built
- medicine is still getting better, diseases that plagued humanity for millenia are now being eradicated
- even baldness is now being fixed and reversing cognitive decline is starting to become possible

I could go on and on, but I think that's enough. If you are not convinced, then you are a part of the problem.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

We have a saying for these times of gloom and doom: "Enquanto uns choram, outros vendem lenços"
So capitalists.... capitalize? wow, such brilliance, suppose you're gonna tell me pulling myself up by my bootstraps is the next best thing to do? am i right or am i right?
A tangential, but interesting index: https://www.gallup.com/394505/indicator ... index.aspx
leaving aside the fact you can't exactly quantify someone's quality of life since there is a wide variety of factors that play into it- the data(which i'm not gonna debate whether it is or isnt reputable, at least not entirely)itself doesn't show the big picture in regards to our environment, decay in our social institutions and the brain rot that currently manifests itself as fascism.

taking it at face value, it still doesn't really paint a good picture as 58% are struggling with their lives and another 15% are suffering, which means a combined 73% of the population are not happy with their lives (when it comes to the global evaluation index at least).
Also this one, even better: https://news.gallup.com/poll/397286/poo ... -high.aspx
took a look at it, seems a little inconsistent when it comes to the US index as it depicts the rate of suffering actually increasing though i suppose this was done at a later time as i look at the dates, the implications section pretty much elaborates what i've been saying , economic conditions steadily getting worse and making life unbearable for many.

when there's a plague, don't confuse the silence between the coughing fits as peace or signs of good health, it's just silence.
R.I.P Ziba.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

wjfox wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:49 am
MythOfProgress wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:14 am we are experiencing a severe economic contraction

Erm...


Image
Cute graph, am i to suppose you haven't noticed the last two consecutive quarters we've experienced had negative GDP growth? or that the Federal Reserve is hiking up interest rates in response to this? as far as anyone's concerned, we've been printing money like there's no tomorrow- the natural consequences of this are going to catch up with us sooner or later- sooner seems to be the answer cropping up a lot more as of late.
R.I.P Ziba.
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

worldwide average GDP per capita is doubling every 20 years
source?
average prices of top 50 most used resources halve every 14 years
source?
extreme poverty and poverty are diminishing
yeah sure, and i'm jeff bezos- unless you have an actual source for this(not the Steven Pinker/Our World in Data one, i've already pointed out the flawed nature of the data plenty of times at this point- just scroll through a few of my earlier posts)im not gonna bother wrestling with this one. also, did you mean to say hunger for the second one? cause the repetition is a little jarring, either that or you meant normal/moderate poverty.
- more and more middle-class citizens ascend to higher-class
so you mean to tell me over the past 40 or so years, wages haven't stagnated and have in fact been corrected/increased to adjust for inflation growth? oh well butter my biscuit. gonna need a source for that once again.
hunger and starvation are significantly lessening, food is becoming more abundant and cheaper (more people die from obesity than from malnutrition)
yeah, except there's actual physical limits (as in the land requirements) to how much crops we can grow and the fact that global crop yields will definitely be affected by climate change, not gonna mention the overshoot aspect just yet considering most will have to come to gripes with the climate collapsing before they understand how our civilization is drawing down energy from the future to make ourselves more comfortable in the present.

our vegetation and ability to harvest will be severely impacted by the intense heat alone, most mammals/plants cannot survive/operate effectively in 120+ degree weather. as for the last one, i suppose you could count America as an example of this, but even here people still can't get as much food- depending on whether or not if they are food-insecure as a result of food prices having increased- people are having to cut costs or decide what things to sacrifice in their lives in order to just survive.
water is becoming more abundant and cheaper (thanks to clever tech), new radar scanning techniques can reveal immense reservoirs of water under the most barren and impoverished territories on Earth
for the first, if you're talking about desalination technologies you'd have to understand the practice is extremely toxic and energy-intensive, the brine that's created from this process is almost always dumped in the ocean, to which the temperature increases and the oxygen levels decrease, creating a dead zone in the environment.
as for the second claim, i will say once again- where is your source?

also, do you not see the troubling implications when you mention how these reservoirs are in the "impoverished" territories? i can't help but feel like this is exactly what US imperialists will take advantage of when the time comes(that is if the source you provide is correct.)
- there are less wars and war deaths worldwide
debatable, but ok.
- life expectancy is increasing everywhere except USA and Russia, by 10 years in Africa between 2000 and 2019
source?
- automation is increasing exponentially
it's already increased exponentially, if you're talking about the type where we are replaced by humanoid robots(androids) and self-driving vehicles in our various tasks, i will be the first to let you know this isn't gonna happen anytime soon, re-creating the complex nature of our human bodies and brains in electronic/digital format would be something we'll have to wrestle for a good part of the century and even then, chances are- nobody is going to care about far-off fantasies when they are struggling to find adequate resources for survival.
productivity worldwide is improving significantly and rather quickly
i don't necessarily see this as a good thing, so much as it is something to be taken advantage by our corporate overlords, but if you really like what you do, all the more power to you. this is just something that encourages business as usual practices. even then, this is questionable when you take a look at how often people are quitting their jobs usually due to low pay, lack of benefits or lack of respect in the workplace, you know the Great Resignation?
- the number of scientific papers and patents is increasing exponentially
this statement doesn't really make sense to me, are you saying that scientists have just in general become super-humanly productive in releasing their patents/writing their papers? and that as a result we have access to more knowledge/power?
number of teenage pregnancies is dropping in every country
questionable, especially with the latest developments over here in the States regarding abortion laws, when it comes to other countries and their view on women/girls-i'd say it all depends on the political climate and whether or not they encourage education for women.
affordability of decent housing worldwide is improving and the number of meters squared per person increases every decade (the average new U.S. house floor space increased by 2.5x since the 1950s and there are 25% less people in an average house)
so what would you think about this? also, source?
- there are more trees in the world than 30 or 100 years ago (thanks to planting and more CO2)
you should be a comedian. no really. if you're serious about what you're typing-i hope you understand tree planting is not some holy grail, keeping older trees alive is just as important if not more relevant considering their ability for carbon sequestration is far greater compared to young/baby trees just starting out, not to mention the work involved in maintaining a tree.
- the Great Coral Reef is flourishing
so you mean to tell me it isn't bleaching?
- there is still a lot of fossil fuels left
having passed peak conventional oil sometime in the mid-to-late 2000s, we've been able to keep it up as a result of advances in hydro-fracking technologies, unfortunately this isn't really going to last us as soon you factor in the steadily declining EROEI and diminishing returns, our ability for extracting oil may have increased temporarily- but so has our energy consumption which goes to show this isn't something that'll solve our problems-so much as it is just to enhance them. a little outdated, but this pretty much demonstrates that global oil stockpiles are lower than expected.
yields of various crops are steadily improving
my earlier point about climate change affecting these crops still stands, also source?
- endangered species are being saved and they multiply
such as?
- cars that run on batteries are exponentially becoming more popular and widespread (batteries are still getting cheaper and better), global EV fleet is about 25 million cars this year
yeah, let's all transition to electric cars as if they are inherently sustainable and don't contribute to more CO2 on account of having to mine for more lithium,cobalt, nickel and various other rare earth minerals.
computing power per $ is improving by 1000x every 20 years and there is no end of computing growth in sight
extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. this isn't any different.
the number of objects launched into space is increasing exponentially and rapidly (not only by the USA)
i get it, exponential is your favorite word, doesn't necessarily mean you can apply it to every concept. that being said, i don't see how this constitutes as good news(not that its bad), it just doesn't have any physical bearings on our environment(unless Kessler syndrome is in effect) or society as a whole. usually evidence of a better society would be prioritizing lower-class folk or vulnerable groups, not a bunch of rich people going up into space.
- cumulative millions of miles driven by prototype autonomous vehicles grows exponentially
again, this isn't really evidence of a better society so much as it is one that's not prioritizing basic needs over foolish wants, changing our public infrastructure and transport to be environmentally-friendly, close-knit and within walk-able distances would prove to be a lot more efficient, cost-effective and in general better for our mental health.
- access to information has been democratized
depends on which country you live in(i.e North Korea, China, Myanmar), but i suppose you're right.
greenhouse gas emissions by developed countries is going down, not up
this is so intellectually dishonest, it doesn't really warrant a response.
efficiency of economies is going up, not down, there is more work done per kWh
source?
new nuclear power plants (including modular, mini ones), solar, wind, geothermal and water power plants are constantly being built
and yet it will never scale up to the energy density of something like fossil fuels.
medicine is still getting better, diseases that plagued humanity for millenia are now being eradicated
antibiotic resistant diseases threaten to come back in droves, climate change is definitely gonna contribute more to this as the years go by.
- even baldness is now being fixed and reversing cognitive decline is starting to become possible
lol, to all my bald brethren and sisters, have pride in your condition and accept yourself for the uniqueness you have, i love you all.
I could go on and on, but I think that's enough. If you are not convinced, then you are a part of the problem.
in case you haven't noticed, we are all part of the problem, if you live in the global north where most of the developed countries reside you'll understand in time our industrialization has meant wonders for the human species(mostly a portion of it in one blip of history) but horrors for the environment and the biosphere we reside in, if you want to convince yourself our path for a better future still exists i won't stop you, but please do not point fingers or kill the messenger.
R.I.P Ziba.
Nero
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:17 pm

Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Nero »

- automation is increasing exponentially
it's already increased exponentially, if you're talking about the type where we are replaced by humanoid robots(androids) and self-driving vehicles in our various tasks, i will be the first to let you know this isn't gonna happen anytime soon, re-creating the complex nature of our human bodies and brains in electronic/digital format would be something we'll have to wrestle for a good part of the century and even then, chances are- nobody is going to care about far-off fantasies when they are struggling to find adequate resources for survival.
On this particular issue, you're totally wrong. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of work and labour are menial tasks that do not require an android or a machine with human equivalent intelligence to accomplish.

Numerous examples of recent automation:





https://blogs.sw.siemens.com/simcenter/ ... 0330912079



Automation has happened. Is happening and will continue to happen at an ever increasing rate. Even you aren't dumb enough to try and argue that these machines will somehow regress in ability.
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funkervogt
Posts: 1365
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by funkervogt »

MythOfProgress wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:24 am
worldwide average GDP per capita is doubling every 20 years
source?
average prices of top 50 most used resources halve every 14 years
source?
extreme poverty and poverty are diminishing
yeah sure, and i'm jeff bezos- unless you have an actual source for this(not the Steven Pinker/Our World in Data one, i've already pointed out the flawed nature of the data plenty of times at this point- just scroll through a few of my earlier posts)im not gonna bother wrestling with this one. also, did you mean to say hunger for the second one? cause the repetition is a little jarring, either that or you meant normal/moderate poverty.
- more and more middle-class citizens ascend to higher-class
so you mean to tell me over the past 40 or so years, wages haven't stagnated and have in fact been corrected/increased to adjust for inflation growth? oh well butter my biscuit. gonna need a source for that once again.
hunger and starvation are significantly lessening, food is becoming more abundant and cheaper (more people die from obesity than from malnutrition)
yeah, except there's actual physical limits (as in the land requirements) to how much crops we can grow and the fact that global crop yields will definitely be affected by climate change, not gonna mention the overshoot aspect just yet considering most will have to come to gripes with the climate collapsing before they understand how our civilization is drawing down energy from the future to make ourselves more comfortable in the present.

our vegetation and ability to harvest will be severely impacted by the intense heat alone, most mammals/plants cannot survive/operate effectively in 120+ degree weather. as for the last one, i suppose you could count America as an example of this, but even here people still can't get as much food- depending on whether or not if they are food-insecure as a result of food prices having increased- people are having to cut costs or decide what things to sacrifice in their lives in order to just survive.
water is becoming more abundant and cheaper (thanks to clever tech), new radar scanning techniques can reveal immense reservoirs of water under the most barren and impoverished territories on Earth
for the first, if you're talking about desalination technologies you'd have to understand the practice is extremely toxic and energy-intensive, the brine that's created from this process is almost always dumped in the ocean, to which the temperature increases and the oxygen levels decrease, creating a dead zone in the environment.
as for the second claim, i will say once again- where is your source?

also, do you not see the troubling implications when you mention how these reservoirs are in the "impoverished" territories? i can't help but feel like this is exactly what US imperialists will take advantage of when the time comes(that is if the source you provide is correct.)
- there are less wars and war deaths worldwide
debatable, but ok.
- life expectancy is increasing everywhere except USA and Russia, by 10 years in Africa between 2000 and 2019
source?
- automation is increasing exponentially
it's already increased exponentially, if you're talking about the type where we are replaced by humanoid robots(androids) and self-driving vehicles in our various tasks, i will be the first to let you know this isn't gonna happen anytime soon, re-creating the complex nature of our human bodies and brains in electronic/digital format would be something we'll have to wrestle for a good part of the century and even then, chances are- nobody is going to care about far-off fantasies when they are struggling to find adequate resources for survival.
productivity worldwide is improving significantly and rather quickly
i don't necessarily see this as a good thing, so much as it is something to be taken advantage by our corporate overlords, but if you really like what you do, all the more power to you. this is just something that encourages business as usual practices. even then, this is questionable when you take a look at how often people are quitting their jobs usually due to low pay, lack of benefits or lack of respect in the workplace, you know the Great Resignation?
- the number of scientific papers and patents is increasing exponentially
this statement doesn't really make sense to me, are you saying that scientists have just in general become super-humanly productive in releasing their patents/writing their papers? and that as a result we have access to more knowledge/power?
number of teenage pregnancies is dropping in every country
questionable, especially with the latest developments over here in the States regarding abortion laws, when it comes to other countries and their view on women/girls-i'd say it all depends on the political climate and whether or not they encourage education for women.
affordability of decent housing worldwide is improving and the number of meters squared per person increases every decade (the average new U.S. house floor space increased by 2.5x since the 1950s and there are 25% less people in an average house)
so what would you think about this? also, source?
- there are more trees in the world than 30 or 100 years ago (thanks to planting and more CO2)
you should be a comedian. no really. if you're serious about what you're typing-i hope you understand tree planting is not some holy grail, keeping older trees alive is just as important if not more relevant considering their ability for carbon sequestration is far greater compared to young/baby trees just starting out, not to mention the work involved in maintaining a tree.
- the Great Coral Reef is flourishing
so you mean to tell me it isn't bleaching?
- there is still a lot of fossil fuels left
having passed peak conventional oil sometime in the mid-to-late 2000s, we've been able to keep it up as a result of advances in hydro-fracking technologies, unfortunately this isn't really going to last us as soon you factor in the steadily declining EROEI and diminishing returns, our ability for extracting oil may have increased temporarily- but so has our energy consumption which goes to show this isn't something that'll solve our problems-so much as it is just to enhance them. a little outdated, but this pretty much demonstrates that global oil stockpiles are lower than expected.
yields of various crops are steadily improving
my earlier point about climate change affecting these crops still stands, also source?
- endangered species are being saved and they multiply
such as?
- cars that run on batteries are exponentially becoming more popular and widespread (batteries are still getting cheaper and better), global EV fleet is about 25 million cars this year
yeah, let's all transition to electric cars as if they are inherently sustainable and don't contribute to more CO2 on account of having to mine for more lithium,cobalt, nickel and various other rare earth minerals.
computing power per $ is improving by 1000x every 20 years and there is no end of computing growth in sight
extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. this isn't any different.
the number of objects launched into space is increasing exponentially and rapidly (not only by the USA)
i get it, exponential is your favorite word, doesn't necessarily mean you can apply it to every concept. that being said, i don't see how this constitutes as good news(not that its bad), it just doesn't have any physical bearings on our environment(unless Kessler syndrome is in effect) or society as a whole. usually evidence of a better society would be prioritizing lower-class folk or vulnerable groups, not a bunch of rich people going up into space.
- cumulative millions of miles driven by prototype autonomous vehicles grows exponentially
again, this isn't really evidence of a better society so much as it is one that's not prioritizing basic needs over foolish wants, changing our public infrastructure and transport to be environmentally-friendly, close-knit and within walk-able distances would prove to be a lot more efficient, cost-effective and in general better for our mental health.
- access to information has been democratized
depends on which country you live in(i.e North Korea, China, Myanmar), but i suppose you're right.
greenhouse gas emissions by developed countries is going down, not up
this is so intellectually dishonest, it doesn't really warrant a response.
efficiency of economies is going up, not down, there is more work done per kWh
source?
new nuclear power plants (including modular, mini ones), solar, wind, geothermal and water power plants are constantly being built
and yet it will never scale up to the energy density of something like fossil fuels.
medicine is still getting better, diseases that plagued humanity for millenia are now being eradicated
antibiotic resistant diseases threaten to come back in droves, climate change is definitely gonna contribute more to this as the years go by.
- even baldness is now being fixed and reversing cognitive decline is starting to become possible
lol, to all my bald brethren and sisters, have pride in your condition and accept yourself for the uniqueness you have, i love you all.
I could go on and on, but I think that's enough. If you are not convinced, then you are a part of the problem.
in case you haven't noticed, we are all part of the problem, if you live in the global north where most of the developed countries reside you'll understand in time our industrialization has meant wonders for the human species(mostly a portion of it in one blip of history) but horrors for the environment and the biosphere we reside in, if you want to convince yourself our path for a better future still exists i won't stop you, but please do not point fingers or kill the messenger.
Mythofprogress, you've disagreed or at least refused to agree with every single point he brought up. You seem to believe that things are getting worse in every way, which is just as unlikely as a belief system that says everything is getting better. Do you acknowledge that your own way of thinking is biased?
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R8Z
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm
Location: Remote

Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by R8Z »

MythOfProgress wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:21 am
We have a saying for these times of gloom and doom: "Enquanto uns choram, outros vendem lenços"
So capitalists.... capitalize? wow, such brilliance, suppose you're gonna tell me pulling myself up by my bootstraps is the next best thing to do? am i right or am i right?
Exactly. Who are you expecting to fix your misery for you? Me? Society?

IMO unless one can fix their own life they shouldn't have a saying how a civilization should be arranged. Start small, things will be more approachable. Non-ironically: clean your room.

Civilization isn't collapsing, your view of it is... fix it if you can.

I've shared the indexes so that you can see that while some are in misery, some are thriving; most are average. For someone with an average g-factor living in a developed world this is certainly a choice, although a long-term one.
And, as always, bye bye.
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