Is Civilization Collapsing?

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MythOfProgress
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Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »



seems to me things have gotten bad enough that even Kurzgesagt have had to entertain this notion(although without the due dilligence and respect to its audience.) suppose I'll save myself the trouble of responding to this in kind and let mr. melonio dismantle their poor reasoning.


Here's the text if you can't access the article:
In a newly published video, the science YouTube channel ‘Kurzgesagt — In a Nutshell’, known for the high production value and adorable presentation of their videos, tackles the immensely complex topic of civilizational collapse, managing to put a positive spin on the death of ’99 percent of the human population.’

The titular question of the video, Is Civilization on the Brink of Collapse?, is never answered and barely mentioned at all. There is no discussion of the likelihood or timeframe of such a collapse, the underlying causes, or what can be done to prepare and survive. Instead, the Kurzgesagt team chooses to argue that, as long as humanity somehow survives and rebuilds its industrial capacities afterward, such a devastating collapse of society wouldn’t be so bad after all.

The video ignores some fundamental realities of climate change, the nature of our society, and the capitalist systems permeating it. Even more troubling, and the focus of this article, is the complete and utter lack of a critical evaluation of the way we have organized economic activity, and our relations to each other and the ecological systems sustaining us.
Comfort and abundance for some

The video begins with beautiful images of the Roman civilization, which is presented as a beacon of human progress and sophistication:

‘It was the pinnacle of human advancement. Its citizens enjoyed the benefits of central heating, concrete, double glazing, banking, international trade, and upward social mobility,’ the cheerful narrator explains.

This conveniently omits the true foundations of the Roman Empire: endless and relentless conquest, imperialism, and the subjugation of hundreds of ‘uncivilized’ peoples and millions of ‘barbarians.’ These were ultimately used for the only thing they were supposedly good for: slavery. Sometimes, they were allowed to die for the entertainment of the Roman people.

It seems appropriate for Kurzgesagt, a channel built on the philosophy of neoliberalism, the capitalist mantra of endless growth and progress, and the unwavering belief in technology as the savior of the human race, to conveniently overlook the cost of what they call ‘the pinnacle of human advancement.’ As we will see, this line of thought is evident throughout the video.

‘Today our cities stretch for thousands of square kilometers, we travel the skies, our communication is instant. Industrial agriculture with engineered high yield plants, efficient machinery, and high potency fertilizer feeds billions of people. Modern medicine gives us the longest lifespan we’ve ever had, while Industrial technology gives us an unprecedented level of comfort and abundance’, the narrator proudly announces, in a tirade on the glory of human progress and ingenuity.

Comfort and abundance? Here, I find a popular anarchist quote, of which I am quite fond, appropriate: ‘Do thine eyes not bleed at the sight of injustice?’

In the offices of the Kurzgesagt team, they quite clearly do not. Comfort and abundance for whom? What is really meant here is comfort and abundance for the Western world. And how was this wealth acquired? Well, pretty much in the same way as the Romans did. Conquest and colonialization, slavery, and the subjugation of ‘less-than-humans’, with its modern-day equivalent of forced-upon neoliberal policies, carried out through institutions such as the World Bank and the IMF and proliferating the constant exploitation of the Global South.

The abundance we enjoy comes at a price. And this price is not (yet) paid by us. Kurzgesagt acknowledges the heavy toll on the climate (the solution to which, as this video titled, We WILL Fix Climate Change shows, they see in the ‘right sort of capitalism,’ namely ‘green capitalism’, and unfounded hope in technological progress), but constantly neglects the historical and current suffering that the Global South has endured and continues to endure so that we can enjoy ‘the longest lifespans we’ve ever had.’ Again, modern medicine for whom? How many Africans received COVID-19 vaccinations while Europeans and Americans got their third or even fourth shot?
‘What if it ruined our chances of enjoying a flourishing future as a multiplanetary species?’

Instead of answering the question in the title or discussing the disastrous consequences of a true global-scale collapse, Kurzgesagt asks, ‘What if a collapse were so deeply destructive that we were unable to re-industrialize again? What if it ruined our chances of enjoying a flourishing future as a multi-planetary species?’

Yes, indeed, that is precisely what we should be concerned about. While, even now, hundreds of millions of children suffer from malnutrition and the imminent threat of death, and we cannot even imagine the anguish a global collapse would cause, our primary concern should most definitely be the continuation of the industrial complex and the impediment a global collapse would pose to the prospect of colonizing other planets and continuing our exploitation there.

Here, the continuation of human civilization and its future glory is presented as some kind of noble goal to strive for. While the possible death of a large majority of the population can be dealt with, as civilization would, at least according to Kurzgesagt, most likely survive such an event, what cannot, ever, be dealt with is the end of technological progress and capitalist growth. We will stop when we rule the universe.

The following few minutes of the video discuss the human race’s resilience in the face of all disasters, such as the bubonic plague or the American murder of more than 100,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. While Kurzgesagt acknowledges that a global-scale collapse in today’s world, with its historically unprecedented potential for destruction and death, would be unlike any other event in human history, comparisons to ancient civilizations are still drawn, which are then used to support the claim that ‘we will recover no matter what.’

These claims are based on factors such as the vastly increased agricultural output of modern crops or the supposedly inevitable survival of key industrial technologies in the case of collapse. Kurzgesagt’s main concern then falls to the availability of easy-access fossil fuels in the post-collapse world. Not a single word is spared to the thought that, maybe, re-industrialization, ignoring for now even its feasibility, might not be a good idea. That, perhaps the very thing that would cause a civilizational collapse in the first place, namely the burning of fossil fuels and the exploitation of resources in the name of consumerism and growth, should not be resumed immediately following a civilizational collapse killing billions.

I might imagine, for it is not discussed in the video, that Kurzgesagt would respond to this criticism along the lines of green capitalism, a higher focus on the development of sustainable technologies (‘technological hopium’), and other neoliberal ideologies, rather than acknowledging the root cause of many of the problems we as a society face today— capitalism.

The line ‘…so, we should stop using easy-to-access coal, so it can serve as a civilization insurance in case something bad happens,’ I believe, does not even merit a response. It demonstrates an utter ignorance to the realities of the world we inhabit and its economic systems and, ultimately, can only be interpreted as a patronizing attempt at unfounded optimism and a defense of the status quo. There are no lessons to be learned here, no critical evaluations or even thoughts, no attempts at improvement, no examination of alternatives, no, let us just get right back to doing what we have done before.
Do not attempt change

The video concludes in a manner rather typical of Kurzgesagt videos: ‘The good news is that it is still early enough to prepare for and to mitigate these risks. We just need to actually do it.’

No, Kurzgesagt, it is not ‘still early enough.’ We have long passed that point. We will most definitely not be able to stop climate change, as you so pompously announced in a previous video (a thorough analysis of the many shortcomings of the arguments presented there can be found in this video by BadEmpanada). We will suffer and many of us will die. There is no technology that can save us, no carbon capturing scheme, no asteroid mining, and no fusion reactor. A disease cannot be cured by the disease. The only thing that could, as Kurzgesagt calls it, ‘mitigate the risks,’ would be an utterly new way of thinking about economics and the conduct of human relations and activities. A system not founded on the maxims of growth for growth’s sake, endless consumption, the satisfaction of non-existing needs, and the protection of private property and existing power relations.

If there is one thing I can sincerely hope for, one thing worth fighting for, it is that the post-collapse world will not look like the one before it. Perhaps, a more appropriate conclusion to Kurzgesagt’s video would have been: ‘This video was sponsored by neoliberal ideologists and institutions. Do nothing, do not attempt change, and, most importantly, trust the system. We care about you.’
R.I.P Ziba.
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erowind
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by erowind »

Something I like about you MythOfProgress, is that unlike many people on r/collapse you're collapse aware, and even though it seems you're convinced that collapse can't be stopped at this point. I've never seen you delve into the mire of overpopulation talk and court ecofascism. Endless growth on a finite world is the problem. Classism is the problem. Ecological exploitation is the problem. And thankyou for posting a critique of Kurzgesagt too, their channel grates on me anytime I watch it these days.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Certain Russian user »

I have already discussed this (mainly with Joe00uk, who, too, was very pessimistic) and can only repeat my intuition-based humble opinion: YES, as soon as you reword "collapse" into something like "deep complex systemic crisis that has no any solution within the framework of currently existing civilization". I also agree that point of no return has already passed (IMHO sometime in 1960s-1970s) and everything that is happening now and will happen in coming decades (demography, ecology, depletion of CHEAP natural resources, geopolitical conflicts disguised as existential struggle of "freedom and progress" against "tyranny and bigotry", real tyranny and bigotry mushrooming everywhere...) is already just details and nuances, even though painful (or fatal) for those involved and affected and thrillingly interesting for future historians.

Does it mean TOTAL civilizational collapse? I have no idea (or, to be honest, just too lazy to write a wall of text with my ideas). Perhaps, and likely, civilization will survive the crisis and come out of it qualitatively transformed (again, too vague, but don't ask me for details, I don't know). This must not give any comfort to generation(s) living today. They have a lot to go through, to despair and suffer (including literally). Modern "progressives" do not (afraid to?) understand this and view today's problems as a mere irritating fluctuations on the road into a brighter future: you just need to get rid of Trump (already done!) and Putin (soon, very soon, just stand with Ukraine and send them more weapons!), then deprogram all their followers, then cancel all racists and sexists, then tweak something here and there, and then... then... Singularity, Universal Basic Income, average lifespan 120, GDP per capita 200 thousand, the happy forty-year-old bearded youths riding gyroscooters through the streets, spinning spinners on their fingers, and when they get bored, launching funny and creative startups...

This will not happen. The coming decades will be ones of existential crisis and despair (especially for bearded youths on gyroscooters). And the following decades and centuries... damn, who knows? Smart Romans could see their society heading right into the abyss, but they couldn't have predicted Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution.
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Certain Russian user »

PS unfortunately I have no time machine. The dark side of me eagerly wants to read what daddy WjFox and his team will write here in the 2030-2040s... so far, I'm only left with imagination and analogies:

1962: "How are you descendants? Did you already visited the moons of Jupiter?"
2022: "Save the water! Do not wash the whole body, only the face, under the armpits and in the groin to annoy Putin!"
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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Certain Russian user
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by Certain Russian user »

PPS (after some thought)
MythOfProgress wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:07 am The video begins with beautiful images of the Roman civilization, which is presented as a beacon of human progress and sophistication:

‘It was the pinnacle of human advancement. Its citizens enjoyed the benefits of central heating, concrete, double glazing, banking, international trade, and upward social mobility,’ the cheerful narrator explains.
It's very revealing, isn't it? When typical modern office hamster thinking of Ancient Rome, he surely imagines himself being the senator in a snow-white toga, solving serious issues. If not a senator, then at least someone with access to those luxuries of "central heating, double glazing, and international trade". No one imagines himself a 12-years-old (but already very experienced) slave prostitute or 25-years-old (but already toothless and completely worn-out in general) worker in the silver mines. Imagining coliseum and gladiators, almost everyone sees themselves in the stands, not on the sand. Even those imagining themselves gladiators, they are surely renown champions, not some noname wretches dying in trash battles just to fill the pause till the main show...
We are few, and the enemy is strong, but God is not in power, but in truth. Some with weapons, and others on horseback, but we call on the name of the Lord our God; they were defeated and fell, but we stood and stand straight.
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

erowind wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:02 am Something I like about you MythOfProgress, is that unlike many people on r/collapse you're collapse aware, and even though it seems you're convinced that collapse can't be stopped at this point. I've never seen you delve into the mire of overpopulation talk and court ecofascism. Endless growth on a finite world is the problem. Classism is the problem. Ecological exploitation is the problem. And thankyou for posting a critique of Kurzgesagt too, their channel grates on me anytime I watch it these days.
nice to see another frequenter/lurker of the sub, its definitely changed throughout the years and been getting more of an influx of new members which could explain a lot of folks you've mentioned not being at the 4th(awareness of the interconnections between many problems) or 5th level of awareness when it comes to collapse(awareness the predicament encompasses all aspects of life).

it is a little difficult bringing up the topic of overpopulation without the mention of violence inevitably cropping up but its necessary to try to disavow anything that advocates for being anti-immigrant/racist or anything that leans fascist in general. while i appreciate the sentiment, im not the real/original mythofprogress acc, just someone that named myself the same coincidentally(or so i think, probably rooted in my subconcious somewhere). as someone who's enjoyed Kurzgesagt's past videos, it's a shame they've fallen for the trap of "growth", but can't expect much from a mainstream infotainment channel that's been sponsored by the gates foundation.
R.I.P Ziba.
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bretbernhoft
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by bretbernhoft »

No, "civilization" is not collapsing. It is transmuting into our image of the near future. Old, well-established interests are collapsing, but not "civilization".
I am a JavaScript Developer, who loves learning; especially when solving challenges as part of making unique applications for Internet users throughout the global Web. I began my journey in technology with WordPress and Web Analytics. More recently I've been working with React, TypeScript, Tailwind CSS, JavaScript, Vite, Node, Git, Netlify, Quickbase and RESTful JSON APIs.
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caltrek
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by caltrek »

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

W.B. Yeats - 1919

Source: https://poets.org/poem/second-coming
"This poem is in the public domain."
Don't mourn, organize.

-Joe Hill
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MythOfProgress
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by MythOfProgress »

No, "civilization" is not collapsing.
in the context of the video, which doesn't really answer the question for the most part- the interconnected systems that we rely on for survival(if not thrive) are in a state of decline, plenty of ecologists have witnessed our biodiversity collapsing, the fact that we are experiencing a severe economic contraction and that our population levels is virtually peaking and close to outpacing the resources needed for survival all makes this a statement of fact, not opinion. this is ecological overshoot in the process.

psychologically it's difficult to come to terms with this as it essentially means the death of all the things we know and love, both figuratively and literally- but if nobody is pointing this out we will be left worse off than we would be if we didn't know -im not here to convince you(at least for now) but to plant a thought in your head for the future as the times go on- eventually this is something we'll witness in action as our ability to procure food and water become increasingly limited leading to widespread famine.
It is transmuting into our image of the near future
keep in mind, not everyone shares the same techno-utopian ideals.
Old, well-established interests are collapsing, but not "civilization"
like the fossil fuel industry for instance? you're not entirely wrong, but its definite that they've already "won", and that their collapse means our crisis. they've made billions of dollars and used their resources to peddle exaggerations, misinformation and burying the truth, the people behind these organizations have already made their decisions, and decided that our lives are mostly forfeit in the pursuit of money.
R.I.P Ziba.
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bretbernhoft
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Re: Is Civilization Collapsing?

Post by bretbernhoft »

I wish you the best of luck.
I am a JavaScript Developer, who loves learning; especially when solving challenges as part of making unique applications for Internet users throughout the global Web. I began my journey in technology with WordPress and Web Analytics. More recently I've been working with React, TypeScript, Tailwind CSS, JavaScript, Vite, Node, Git, Netlify, Quickbase and RESTful JSON APIs.
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