Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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caltrek
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Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

Post by caltrek »

In the the thread dedicated to the Ukraine and the war there resulted in the emergence in my mind of this question. I will start with this explanation of the scientific process:

https://www.amnh.org/explore/videos/the ... c-process

One complication when being applied to the "social sciences":
Scientists can gather their data by observing the natural world, performing an experiment in a laboratory, or by running a model.
"Natural world" would need to be expanded to include "human behavior."

In the case of the war in the Ukraine, there would be the question of "military science." There again, "natural world" would need to be expanded to included "modern technology of warfare." This would not only include the technology itself, but the relative efficacy of different weapons in the theater of war. An evolving problem in that adversaries may develop countermeasures of varying efficacy.

That should get the conversation started. We can proceed with comments or questions on either the scientific process as described in the link, or comments and questions regarding my discussion of complications.

Of course, how much further I proceed will depend somewhat on the responses I receive to this thread. If no further interest is shown, I may decide not to proceed. There are a couple of other comments that I want to make that I may end up adding "for the record."

In any event, stay tuned if there is any interest at all in this topic.
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caltrek
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

Post by caltrek »

Related:
Related to science is a concept I introduced in my I Am Just Joking Thread. Because I was just joking, I wasn’t concerned about getting definitions precisely correct. The concept was that of the
nagual
noun
na·gual
nəˈ(g)wäl
variants or less commonly nahual
nəˈ(h)wäl
pluralnaguals
-älz
or naguales
-äˌlās
also nahuals

a
: a personal guardian spirit or protective alter ego assumed by various Middle American Indians to reside in an animal or less frequently in some other embodiment compare HUACA
b
: the animal double or guardian itself
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio ... %20itself

Here was my introduction the concept, as well as some other related concepts. As I say, it did not really have an identical match to the formal definition presented above.
There are three or four basic fields of influence over day-to-day life:
1.That which is known and readily understood by those open to receiving knowledge.
2. That which is currently unknown, but which may become known in the future through scientific investigation.
3. That which is currently unknown and will probably never be known. In turn this falls in to two categories:
a. That which is known to be unknown.
b. That which is so far out of sight and mind that it is not even known to be unknown, and yet somehow affects our lives.


Of the three, the nagual straddles the second and the third. It is both the subject of scientific inquiry, but also the source of mystery and possibly even great danger. The realm of unintended consequences is definitely related to the nagual. Those who fear the nagual respect the powerful impact unintended consequences may have upon…society. Nagual is the proper subject matter of study and speculation by both scientists and shamans. Still, their methods of inquiry can be radically different.
If I am not mistaken the word nagual actually traces its origins to the Southwestern United States and Mexico. It seems to be a word common to the Yaqui, as well as natives of central and perhaps even southern Mexico. (By sheer coincidence, I have ancestors who can be traced to natives of the Southwest, although probably not to the Yaqui. The Southwest takes in a lot of territory.)

Western equivalents might include witches and warlocks. In the West, the image of an old women stirring a caldron is often associated with the concept “witch.” Presumably, such witches often experimented with things they found in the world much like the manner in which modern day chemists conduct experiments in the world.

Also a root of the scientific method was the question of whether the earth revolved around the sun. An affirmative response was treated by medieval society as somewhat heretical. A sort of compromise was proposed by church authorities that the idea could be explored as an idea, and not as an established fact. Much like saying that astronomers could proceed with exploring this idea as long as they did not insist upon its absolute validity.

Related to how the scientific method may (or may not) be related to the war in the Ukraine:
ibm9000 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:05 am
So, my point has been taken?
Your point is wrong.

What is the theory that you are defending? I haven't seen your hipotesis anywhere.
...
Note that I am discussing a process and not a conclusion, and therefore no need to put forth a full-fledged theory. As for a hypothesis, I am getting to that.
Last edited by caltrek on Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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To address the point about hypothesis, tie up things for now, and move on. One statement that I made in the Ukraine War thread went something like: "In a war both sides lose."

Meaning that both sides will suffer from death and destruction. I trust that the reader will see that there has been plenty of evidence brought forth in that thread documenting the validity of that "hypothesis."

Now, I fully understand that an objection may be raised that this is overly simplistic. Granted.

Flowing from that is an observation of the complexity of war. Many different questions are raised that can be explored in the course of that war. Some can be addressed through the scientific method, while others may need to fall back upon more ancient lines of reasoning. Examples being dialectal discussion, also known as the Socratic method, and dialectical materialism.

Because these methods can be compared and contrasted with the scientific method, I will admit them into the discussion without complaints of diverting form the topic.

I also addressed the problem of dealing with bias from different reporting sources in the Ukraine thread. Perhaps my answer was not satisfactory to some readers. That problem can also be the topic of further discussion in this thread without being off topic.
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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I mentioned Carlos Castaneda and the concept of the nagual. Castaneda studied the Yaqui, and fell under the influence of a shaman, named Don Juan in his works. Significantly, the shaman was also alternatively referred to as a warrior. So, we can immediately begin to see the potential relevance to the war in the Ukraine. Of note is "that which is unknown." Under battlefield conditions that is the sort of thing that can kill you. Think booby traps, ambushes, etc.

The way of the warrior as described by Castaneda can also be applied toward conditions of occupancy by a foreign power. Particularly, if that foreign power is bent upon something other than full scale genocide. For that matter, it can be applied to everyday living, even within a capitalist society.

What has that got to do with science?

Castaneda was often criticized for "going native." Trained in science, he abandoned Western science for something he found more profoundly attractive. The way of the warrior, more or less.

Now warrior can be understood metaphorically. One can also express this as the way of the peaceful warrior.

Edit: Addition of the word "Western."
Last edited by caltrek on Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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Castaneda was not the only modern writer to have written about naguals. One "peaceful warrior" that has written about naguals Is Don Miguel Ruiz. This is from a preface to his book The Four Agreements:
Thousands of years ago, the Toltec were known throughout southern Mexico as "women and men of knowledge." Anthropologists have spoken of the Toltec as a nation or a race, but, in fact, the Toltec were scientists and artists who formed a society to explore and conserve the spiritual knowledge and practices of the ancient ones. They came together as masters (naguals) and students at Teotihuacan, the ancient city of pyramids outside Mexico City known as the place where "Man Becomes God."

Over the millennia, the naguals were forced to conceal the ancestral wisdom and maintain its existence in obscurity. European conquest, coupled with rampant misuse of personal power by a few of the apprentices, made it necessary to shield the knowledge form those who were not prepared to use it wisely or who might intentionally misuse it for personal gain.

Fortunately, the esoteric Toltec knowledge was embodied and passed on through generations by different lineages of naguals. Though it remained veiled in secrecy for hundreds of years, ancient prophecies foretold the coming of an age when it would be necessary to return to the wisdom of the people. Now, don Miguel Ruiz, a nagual from the Eagle Knight lineage, has been guided to share with us the powerful teachings of the Toltec.

Toltec knowledge arises from the same essential unity of truth as all the sacred esoteric traditions found around the world. Though it is not a religion, it honors all the spiritual masters who have taught on earth. While it does embrace spirit, it is most accurately described as a way of life, distinguished by the ready accessibility of happiness and love.
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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Also, from The Four Agreements:
Before we were born the humans before us created a big out-side dream that we call society's dream or the dream of the planet (emphasis in original). The dream of the planet is the collective dream of billions of smaller personal dreams, which together create a dream of a family, a dream of a community, a dream of a city, a dream of a country, and finally a dream of the whole humanity. The dream of the planet includes all of society's rules, its beliefs, its laws, its religions, its different cultures and ways to be, its governments, schools, social events, and holidays.

We are born with the capacity to learn how to dream, and the humans who live before us teach us how to dream the way society dreams. The outside dream has so many rules that when a new human is born, we hook the child's attention and introduce these rules into his or her mind. The outside dream uses Mom and dad, the schools, and religion to teach us how to dream.

Attention is the ability we have to discriminate and to focus only on that which we want to perceive...

As children, we didn't have an opportunity to choose our beliefs, but we agreed with the information that was passed to us from the dream of the planet via other humans. The only way to store information is by agreement.
Note that this is all by way of a nagual, who is at least partially at heart a scientist. Put another way, this shows the scientific method that he employs. In dealing with the many inputs we receive, from both those who seek to tell the truth and those who seek to deceive, we can employ our attention, a learned skill. Part of the scientific method as developed in western culture is to carefully and methodically note those statements which over time that appear to be proven correct. In its more formal versions, this involves a statement of a hypothesis. A statement that is falsifiable.

There is of course more in Don Miguel's book than I have cited, but I trust this will help us address the problem false or deliberately misleading propaganda.
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Re: Can the Scientific Method be Applied to Social Science?

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This thread was started largely in response to issues raised in the Ukraine war thread. Still, I stumbled upon the title because I also wanted to write about an altogether different aspect of the relation between scientific investigation and social studies. I recently came upon passages in the book What Mad Pursuit that touch upon this subject:
I found there was a new subject that called itself cognitive science. (It has been said, somewhat unkindly, that any subject that has "science" in its name is unlikely to be one.) Cognitive science was part of the rebellion against behaviorism. Behaviorists thought that one should study only the behavior of an animal and should not try to take account of, or make models of, any postulated mental processes inside the animal. Behaviorism became the dominant school in psychology in the earlier part of this century, especially in America.

Cognitive scientists, in opposition to the narrower views of behaviorists, think it important to make explicit models of mental process, especially those of humans. Modern linguistics is an important part of cognitive science, since it does just that. There is no great enthusiasm, however, for looking into the actual brain itself (What Mad Pursuit was published in 1988 and I don't think this lack of enthusiasm still exists, at least not among certain specialists - caltrek). Many cognitive scientists tend to regard that brain as a "black box," better left unopened. In fact, some people define cognitive science as studies that take no account of such things nerve cells. In cognitive science the usual procedure is to isolate some psychological phenomenon, make a theoretical model of the postulate mental process, and then test the model by computer simulation. If it fits at least some of the psychological facts it is then thought to be a useful model. The fact that it is rather unlikely to be the correct one seems to disturb nobody.

...Basically it is the philosophical attitude of a functionalist, a person who believes that study of the functioning of a person or animal is all important and that it can be studied, by itself, in an abstract way without bothering about what sort of bits and pieces actually implement the functions under study.
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