Modern History (1800 – present)

[Vakanai]

Of course!

The brain of a US Senator is completely different to that of a Roman Senator and none of them is trying to make Rome great again.

Most of them are currently more interested in making America a white christian nationalist state and taking bribes from Russia than any actual imperialism. Also, nice try but no.

[ibm9000]

Of course!
The brain of a US Senator is completely different to that of a Roman Senator and none of them is trying to make Rome great again.

Most of them are currently more interested in making America a white christian nationalist state and taking bribes from Russia than any actual imperialism. Also, nice try but no.

Of course!

Do you have the list of those bribes? Or of US bribing any politician in any country? Ever?
When US invaded Nicaragua that was... Russian bribes? All those beautiful dictatorships in Latin America... Russian bribes or US' (Rome's) client kingdoms?

[Vakanai]

Of course!
The brain of a US Senator is completely different to that of a Roman Senator and none of them is trying to make Rome great again.

Most of them are currently more interested in making America a white christian nationalist state and taking bribes from Russia than any actual imperialism. Also, nice try but no.

Of course!

Do you have the list of those bribes? Or of US bribing any politician in any country? Ever?
When US invaded Nicaragua that was... Russian bribes? All those beautiful dictatorships in Latin America... Russian bribes or US' (Rome's) client kingdoms?

So a lack of humor to go with your lack of ethics and morals too, how shocking...
Seriously, there's no whataboutism, there's no "well so and so did it", there's just the simple fact that a dictator invaded a country for his own imperial aims and that's just wrong and reprehensible. You're a Putin apologist, a Russian propagandist, you are defending the indefensible. Putin invaded a country that posed no threat to him, other than some imagined wound to his ego. That's what it's about, that's all of what it's about. But you keep pointing to the west, to history, to various politicians a majority of sane people condemn, all to try and somehow to get people to buy into the fantasy that Putin and Russia aren't the barbaric savages of a bygone era the rest of the civilized world has left behind or at least is trying to leave behind.
Hope your Kremlin keepers pay you well comrade.

[ibm9000]

History Forum.

Not "Point your finger -only- at Putin... (as you were talking of "sense of humour".)

[Vakanai]

History Forum.

Not "Point your finger -only- at Putin... (as you were talking of "sense of humour".)

Modern history - Ukraine invasion began two years ago, the unlawful takeover of Crimea a decade ago.
And I'm only pointing my finger at Putin for that which is his fault - and those are his faults, his decisions, his imperial ambitions.

Not the defend a dictator for the evils he commits forum either.

[ibm9000]

History Forum.
Not "Point your finger -only- at Putin... (as you were talking of "sense of humour".)

Modern history - Ukraine invasion began two years ago, the unlawful takeover of Crimea a decade ago.
And I'm only pointing my finger at Putin for that which is his fault - and those are his faults, his decisions, his imperial ambitions.
Not the defend a dictator for the evils he commits forum either.

Modern History, not latest news.
Do you know of any other invasion since 1800? Any other "takeover"? Any other "imperial" (do they have to use the word "Empire"?) ambitions? What is the difference, that you don't like this one?

Are you sure I am defending him? Maybe I am just blaming everyone else, everyone else you seem to forget.


A dictator? According to UN? Any other one? Saddam Hussein was a dictator and we were quite happy with him (like with the Shah), until we were not. For our "imperial ambition" or for our national interests?

...
How many dictatorships (according to your standards) do you know as of today? Are they supported by any country? What country?

[Vakanai]

History Forum.
Not "Point your finger -only- at Putin... (as you were talking of "sense of humour".)

Modern history - Ukraine invasion began two years ago, the unlawful takeover of Crimea a decade ago.
And I'm only pointing my finger at Putin for that which is his fault - and those are his faults, his decisions, his imperial ambitions.
Not the defend a dictator for the evils he commits forum either.

Modern History, not latest news.
Do you know of any other invasion since 1800? Any other "takeover"? Any other "imperial" (do they have to use the word "Empire"?) ambitions? What is the difference, that you don't like this one?

Nice try but this isn't "different" to me - I was against the war in Iraq and our other crimes during the war on terror. So don't try and bring your whataboutisms here.

Are you sure I am defending him? Maybe I am just blaming everyone else, everyone else you seem to forget.

It's everyone else's fault but the dictator, everyone else but Putin right?
Defending the indefensible.

A dictator? According to UN? Any other one? Saddam Hussein was a dictator and we were quite happy with him (like with the Shah), until we were not. For our "imperial ambition" or for our national interests?

Again, who is this "we" you're talking about? America's political elite? The UN? A bunch of rich people? Cause you keep using this word "we" and I don't think you know what it means because I sure as heck am not part of this "we" you're talking about. I'm never happy with dictators and dictatorships.

...
How many dictatorships (according to your standards) do you know as of today? Are they supported by any country? What country?

Does it matter what dictatorships are supported what countries? Cause news flash - I know my country supports dictatorships, but I disagree with my country's support of dictatorships, I don't like it, I don't defend it, I don't justify it. I believe we should do better.
What do you believe in? Might makes right? That it's all normal? That as long as the West/America does it we shouldn't be against it or judge those who do it? Or is it that Putin can do know wrong?
Cause again comrade, I hope your Kremlin keeper pays you well.

And again, we're discussing things that started years ago, not last week. That's modern history.

[ibm9000]

Modern history - Ukraine invasion began two years ago, the unlawful takeover of Crimea a decade ago.
And I'm only pointing my finger at Putin for that which is his fault - and those are his faults, his decisions, his imperial ambitions.
Not the defend a dictator for the evils he commits forum either.

Modern History, not latest news.
Do you know of any other invasion since 1800? Any other "takeover"? Any other "imperial" (do they have to use the word "Empire"?) ambitions? What is the difference, that you don't like this one?

Nice try but this isn't "different" to me - I was against the war in Iraq and our other crimes during the war on terror. So don't try and bring your whataboutisms here.

Are you sure I am defending him? Maybe I am just blaming everyone else, everyone else you seem to forget.

It's everyone else's fault but the dictator, everyone else but Putin right?
Defending the indefensible.

A dictator? According to UN? Any other one? Saddam Hussein was a dictator and we were quite happy with him (like with the Shah), until we were not. For our "imperial ambition" or for our national interests?

Again, who is this "we" you're talking about? America's political elite? The UN? A bunch of rich people? Cause you keep using this word "we" and I don't think you know what it means because I sure as heck am not part of this "we" you're talking about. I'm never happy with dictators and dictatorships.

...
How many dictatorships (according to your standards) do you know as of today? Are they supported by any country? What country?

Does it matter what dictatorships are supported what countries? Cause news flash - I know my country supports dictatorships, but I disagree with my country's support of dictatorships, I don't like it, I don't defend it, I don't justify it. I believe we should do better.
What do you believe in? Might makes right? That it's all normal? That as long as the West/America does it we shouldn't be against it or judge those who do it? Or is it that Putin can do know wrong?
Cause again comrade, I hope your Kremlin keeper pays you well.
And again, we're discussing things that started years ago, not last week. That's modern history.

If you want to read in my "this is another war", that I am defending this invasion; please, enjoy.

We, the West. I may be wrong, but I don't think many people in Qatar or India are reading this; Kenya, maybe?

That you agree or what you are against is completely irrelevant. They are facts in History, Russian didn't sink the Rainbow Warrior to defend French interests (imperial ambitions?). Russia is defending Russian interests, as we did, as we (my educated guess) will.


I cannot the see point in pointing the finger at the last transaction, when it's business as usual.

[Vakanai]

If you want to read in my "this is another war", that I am defending this invasion; please, enjoy.

Do you really not see it? Everyone is reading that you are defending Putin and his invasion because every post you make in this forum is about Putin's invasion of Ukraine and I've not once seen you try to defend Ukraine's attempts to repel said invasion, to encourage other nations to help Ukraine defend their country, or to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
No one is reading you as some neutral commentator here.

We, the West. I may be wrong, but I don't think many people in Qatar or India are reading this; Kenya, maybe?

Oh, so the entirety of everyone in the West isn't against all dictatorships? Or that no one from the West can condemn any Eastern nation for doing something a major Western nation has done even if they were against that nation doing it? So because I'm from the West I can't point at dictatorships and unlawful invasions and call them out for the vile things they do?

Your arguments or not convincing - in fact, they're the definition of bad faith.

That you agree or what you are against is completely irrelevant. They are facts in History, Russian didn't sink the Rainbow Warrior to defend French interests (imperial ambitions?). Russia is defending Russian interests, as we did, as we (my educated guess) will.

We learn from history, not to become worse, not to become more savage, not to hail authoritarianism and dismiss national borders and cultural norms. Except for nations like Russia, who take the wrong lessons from history, who look at the villains of history and ask "how can we accomplish that level of barbarity?" History isn't just about facts, it's about what we take from those facts, about how those facts should shape the present and need to shape the future. And don't give me that bullshit about we - the USA didn't defend our interests, that's the whole reason the war in Iraq was so unpopular, why many people protested our use of drones in Yemen.
Russia's invasion isn't in their interest, it isn't in defense of their interests - it's in Putin's interest, it's in defense of Putin's ego.

I cannot the see point in pointing the finger at the last transaction, when it's business as usual.

Except for most of the world, it isn't. Most of the world has moved on. There's only a handful of nations still acting like this - and yes, I'm aware that the USA is one. My point is that these actions should be condemned, not just when it's Russia doing them, but when any nation does them.

But you need your whataboutisms to justify this, to keep this "business as usual" going on, to defend Putin.
No. It was wrong when we did it in Iraq and other ME nations. It's wrong with Russia doing it in Ukraine now. No whataboutism, no pointing the finger at one but not the other. You're not trying to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who only thinks it's wrong when "other" nations do this.

Make an argument that isn't "Well, America did it."

We need to learn from history. I'm tired of repeating this cycle of humans acting badly.

[ibm9000]

"I'm tired of repeating this cycle of humans acting badly."

History is not tired of it.

[Vakanai]

"I'm tired of repeating this cycle of humans acting badly."

History is not tired of it.

Russia and Putin certainly aren't - neither it seems are you.
History will look on Putin's Russia much as it does Hitler's Germany however, and there's no whataboutism you can make to change that fact.

[ibm9000]

Well, how much do you think we learnt from the invasion of Afghanistan?
The one by the British Empire, not the other two. How much do you think we learnt from the invasion of Crimea? By the British and the French I mean, with Sardinia joining for the party.

Our version of History, for sure.

[Vakanai]

Well, how much do you think we learnt from the invasion of Afghanistan?
The one by the British Empire, not the other two. How much do you think we learnt from the invasion of Crimea? By the British and the French I mean, with Sardinia joining for the party.

Our version of History, for sure.

Not enough sadly - but you're the only one trying to use it to justify atrocities. You're the one who's only arguments come down to whataboutisms time and time again. When genocide begins again will you point to the Holocaust and say "well Germany did it" then to Rawanda and say "they did it too" and argue that's reason enough to accept genocide again and again?

Your argument boils down to other nations have done it, so let's never change. Other nations have committed slavery, should the USA go back to that and undo the Civil War? Other nations are still dictatorships, should we let go of whatever scraps of democracy we have left and embrace true monarchies again? Should we go back to executing heretics and witches? Bring back child brides or sell off our girls for sheep and cattle? Go back to the law of an eye for an eye, or cutting off the hands of thieves? Where exactly do you think we should draw the line? When do we reach a cut off and say "Let's not repeat this history"? Or is it just whatever helps to justify the needs and wants of Putin comrade?

Don't worry, this discussion is over - if you respond again with another whataboutism I will block you so as to never again see your posts again - and you will respond with a whataboutism, because that is all you have.

[ibm9000]

Yes, please finish your point at your pleasure.

"...trying to use it to justify atrocities" Where exactly am I doing that? With what words? This is another war.
"...let's never change." Again, where exactly am I saying that? With what words? We haven't changed, this is just another invasion.
"...we should draw the line?" I think we will not draw the line, countries will act in their own interests; forever.
Russia is acting in it own interests, it happened before and not only Russia acted in that way. I consider that a fact and I state the fact. Somehow, you see "justification" somewhere.

I heard that repeating a mantra (whataboutism) is really self-satisfying.


"That's the point - Putin's puppets have to be totally unreasonable because they're defending the indefensible." First, you state I am a puppet (thank you?) Second, I "defend" or do I compare? Certainly, you see things and you are certain of it.
What I still cannot see is the "difference": invasions, this invasion.

[Vakanai]

Yes, please finish your point at your pleasure.

"...trying to use it to justify atrocities" Where exactly am I doing that? With what words? This is another war.
"...let's never change." Again, where exactly am I saying that? With what words? We haven't changed, this is just another invasion.
"...we should draw the line?" I think we will not draw the line, countries will act in their own interests; forever.
Russia is acting in it own interests, it happened before and not only Russia acted in that way. I consider that a fact and I state the fact. Somehow, you see "justification" somewhere.

I heard that repeating a mantra (whataboutism) is really self-satisfying.


"That's the point - Putin's puppets have to be totally unreasonable because they're defending the indefensible." First, you state I am a puppet (thank you?) Second, I "defend" or do I compare? Certainly, you see things and you are certain of it.
What I still cannot see is the "difference": invasions, this invasion.

My point is that it doesn't matter that it's another invasion or another war. My point is that it doesn't matter "oh gee well the west does it too so why is this any different?" Because it isn't different - the fact that barbarity has happened, that others have committed it, doesn't mean Putin should be free to do it and we all accept it as "well this is just how things are." My point is that the barbarity itself is wrong. Period. Full stop. And you know that is my point, you know that's what I've been saying. But to you it doesn't matter because to you the point is whatever let's Putin do what Putin wants to do.

And it's not a mantra, it's calling you out - the reason I keep saying the word "whataboutism" is because that's what you use, that's been all you have ever used, virtually every post you make in response to others is "what about" in order to absolve Putin of his sins and wrongdoing.

But like I said, I knew you would resort to this, and I'm keeping my word to put you on ignore. Have fun talking to yourself from now on comrade.

[ibm9000]

Pity, as it is not different, we do agree. Putin is as free as everyone else to do what he wants.

As you were, obviously, mentioning Hitler, let's try this: "...to carry out continuous attacks on the densely populated workers and industrial areas".
Only that those are notes from May 1941, from the Air Ministry, UK, Sir W. Churchill. The Director of Air Intelligence was welcoming an attack on "the livelihood, the housing... of the working class".

Do you see me defending that British Government? Defending Hitler? Maybe, just stating a fact? I don't think we can justify our actions by the actions of the enemy. It's a war, it's politics, everyone plays dirty; did and will do. That is my point and we do agree, there is no difference.

(I thought your point was that I am a puppet and a comrade.)

[ibm9000]

BTW, I still need help pointing me to those words about "justify", "defend" and "let's never".
I confidently affirm that we, humans in this case, will never change; I don't encourage it, I just state the fact.

[Time_Traveller]

As the Paris Olympics 2024 has just started today and its been 100 years since Paris has had its last summer Olympics. I just wanted to share a little bit of its history from 1924.

[caltrek]

...
I confidently affirm that we, humans in this case, will never change; I don't encourage it, I just state the fact.

I think you are overlooking one obvious and very important fact. That is the onset of democracy. Something we have only really seen in the last half of the twentieth century. Something that has taken hold in countries such as Germany, much of the rest of Western Europe, Japan, and some other Asian countries such as South Korea. Even Latin America seems to be taking baby steps in that direction.

In turn, these countries have formed international courts (although the United States has held off on recognizing their jurisdiction) participated in things like the European Union and the United Nations. Such countries and have found ways of exerting their national interest that do not involve wars, invasions, and terrorism. Sure, one can always point to exceptions in their conduct, but it is interesting that one often has to go back to the middle of the twentieth century for such examples. Seen in this light, the invasion of Iraq was the last dying gasp of colonialist power based on force. Even that war had as its target a leader who had commanded the invasion of not one but two of its neighbors and utilized methods of extreme repression to maintain its power.

I think it is good that you have taken this debate to the modern history thread where we can finally compare and contrast. A part of that comparison can include other places and other times. Back in the sixties and the seventies there was a truism that made the rounds that if you are not a part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. This "we...will never change" attitude is very much a part of the problem. It has recently been pointed out to me that it is a form of nihilism. Of believing in nothing. As such, it is very close to the form of nihilism practiced by Putin. In Putin's case, it is believing in nothing except the idea that power flows from the barrel of a gun. If you believe in nothing, then there is nothing to defend when somebody like Putin comes to the front.

Now, maybe a prolonged war in the Ukraine was not the best response. Yet, when faced with that power flowing from a barrel of a gun mentality, it is hard to imagine an alternative form of resistance that is likely to be effective. Still, if you have some ideas in that regard, great, let them come forth. If all you have is nihilism, a belief in nothing or absence of belief in anything, then don't expect to persuade the rest of us.

[firestar464]

Nah he just wants to downplay anything Russia does, that's it. He doesn't believe in much else