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He can also use nukes and still get executed. Which is most likely what is going to end up happening. The result is going to be the same no many how many people he kills trying to draw this out. He was never going to be able to occupy Ukraine with 150k men which he started the invasion with an achieve whatever his goals were.

It's amazing how Putin after chiding the West for years about their interventions didn't learn a damn thing when he went into UKraine.

-Didn't learn that you need clear objectives when you go into a country. (Like it still isn't clear whether annexation was always the goal or it was a Plan B after failing to take Kyiv)
-Have proper resources to make those objectives realistic. (Needed way more troops.)
-Not lie about the rationale (Iraq WMD looking at you.)
-Not constantly politically interfere with operations (Putin is really bad at this, and apparently ordered the Russians to stay and get slaughtered in Lyman, while doing his annexation party even though that had no military, only propaganda value.)
-Not being hubristic and being able to make clearly decisions based on reality. (This is where Putin especially tickles me as for after years or decrying the hubris of the West, turns out Putin may be more hubristic even then Western leaders were during their interventions.)

Xyls wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:21 pm

caltrek wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:28 pm

ibm9000 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:43 pm
I think we already know that.

Thank you for your suggestions. However, I fear that you will just have to endure my continued use of Wiki. Far better than some random source off the internet that may be just a bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

I don't know why you continue to try to engage with ibm, Caltrek? It's pretty clear this person is not making arguments in good faith. They also can barely string together a simple sentence to convey a basic idea most of the time. Just ignore them and move on.

Believe me, I am tempted to "just move on." For your part, you could also be more helpful by toning down the more incendiary aspects of your rhetoric. After all, it is snide remarks that give folks like ibm the opportunity to score some debating points.

Mind you, I understand that I have made more than my share of snarky remarks in this and other forums over the years While snarky remarks can entertain and convey emotional tone and conviction, they can also needlessly provoke and anger other participants. Still, when dealing with someone like ibm, it is very hard for me to suppress the urge.

I am willing to read the comments of ibm and others with whom I disagree. They can give balance to this forum. Still, balance is a little different from swallowing a line of Russian propaganda bullshit, even if it is mixed with some remarks that can be construed as being critical of "the Russian line."

^^^This all reminds me of an observation concerning Japanese propaganda during World War II. It went something like "the civilian population of Japan knew they were losing the war because reports of the 'latest glorious Japanese victory' came in concerning battles that were closer and closer to Japan."

For my part, I am beginning to realize that my earlier pessimism concerning Ukraine's prognosis for actually winning this war in the strictly military sense of the word underestimated Ukraine's capabilities.

I think the end game is now pretty much about determining mutually recognized borders between Russia and the Ukraine. It would be a great shame to blow apart human civilization because of a dispute involving a few hundred square kilometers along that border.

Pope Francis ‘Begs’ Putin to Stop ‘Spiral of Violence and Death’
October 2, 2022

Introduction:

(Al Jazeera) Pope Francis has for the first time directly appealed to Russia’s President Vladimir Putin to stop the “spiral of violence and death” in Ukraine, saying he is haunted by “rivers of blood and tears”.

The head of the Catholic Church also condemned the annexation of four regions of Ukraine, saying it risked nuclear escalation and urged Putin to think of his own people during an address dedicated to Ukraine in St Peter’s Square.

One Vatican official said the impassioned speech was so sombre it was reminiscent of a radio peace appeal by Pope John XXIII in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Francis has often condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the death it has caused, but it was the first time he made a direct personal appeal to Putin.

“My appeal goes above all to the president of the Russian Federation, begging him to stop this spiral of violence and death, even out of love for his own people,” Francis said.

Read more here: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10 ... and-death

Removed: uncorroborated

So Russia really went to all this bother launching an invasion without actually intending to complete it. I mean, I know I was one of the big "Russia will win" posters on here, but I guess it was stupid of me to work from the assumption Russia was actually going to try to do that. Truly a spectacle for the ages.