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Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:55 pm
by MythOfProgress

while not an exact fan of YouTuber EE(Economics Explained), they do tend to make some interesting analysis videos(from the neo-liberal perspective) on certain economic concepts and patterns that play out in practice. however, with this video they've made; they seem to conclude that infinite growth is possible on a finite world, not giving much thought to the physical constraints associated with an environment like ours and the environmental costs incurred in the name of growth.

thankfully, climate physicist Chirag Dhara and Vandana Singh who's a professor of physics point out the disconnects with an economic system centered solely on growth.

If you can't read the article, here's the text:
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The electric vehicle (EV) has become one of the great modern symbols of a world awakened to the profound challenges of unsustainability and climate change. So much so that we may well imagine that Deep Thought’s answer today to Life, the Universe and Everything might plausibly be “EV.” But, as Douglas Adams would surely have asked, if electric vehicles are the answer, what is the question?

Let us imagine the “perfect” EV: solar powered, efficient, reliable and affordable. But is it sustainable? EVs powered by renewable energy may help reduce the carbon footprint of transport. Yet, the measure of sustainability is not merely the carbon footprint but the material footprint: the aggregate quantity of biomass, metal ores, construction minerals and fossil fuels used during production and consumption of a product. The approximate metric tonne weight of an EV constitutes materials such as metals (including rare earths), plastics, glass and rubber. Therefore, a global spike in the demand for EVs would drive an increased demand for each of these materials.

Every stage of the life cycle of any manufactured product exacts environmental costs: habitat destruction, biodiversity loss and pollution (including carbon emissions) from extraction of raw materials, manufacturing / construction, through to disposal. Thus, it is the increasing global material footprint that is fundamentally the reason for the twin climate and ecological crises.

The global material footprint has grown in lockstep with the exponentially rising global economy (GDP) since the industrial revolution. This is largely because of egregious consumption by thesuper-affluentin a socioeconomic system founded on growth without limits. Can we resolve this fundamental conflict between the quest for limitless growth and the consequent environmental destruction?
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Industrial era exponential rise in the use of primary and derived physical resources: cropland (a), fossil fuels (b), freshwater (c), metals (d), plastic (e). Credit: Our World in Data (CC BY-SA 3.0 AU)

ENTER TECHNOLOGY

Technological innovation and efficiency improvements are often cited as pathways to decouple growth in material use from economic growth. While technology undoubtedly has a crucial role to play in the transition to a sustainable world, it is constrained by fundamental physical principles and pragmatic economic considerations.

Examples abound. The engine efficiency of airplanes has improved little for decades since they have long been operating close to their theoretical peak efficiency. Likewise, there is a hard limit on the efficiency of photovoltaic cells of about 35 percent because of the physical properties of the semiconductors that constitute them; in practice few exceed 20 percent for economic and pragmatic reasons. The power generation of large wind farms is limited to about one watt per square meter as a simple yet utterly unavoidable physical consequence of wake effects. The awesome exponential increase in computing power of the past five decades will end by about 2025 since it is physically impossible to make the transistors on the computer chip, already roughly 5 percent of the size of the coronavirus, much smaller.

Whether it is principles of classical, quantum or solid state physics or thermodynamics, each places different but inexorable constraints on technological solutions. Basically, physical principles that have allowed incredible technological leaps over the past century also inevitably limit them. We might consider that extensive recycling of materials would offset efficiency limits. Recycling is crucial; however, while glass and metals can be recycled almost indefinitely without loss of quality, materials such as paper and plastic can be recycled only a few times before becoming too degraded.

Additionally, recycling itself may be an energy- and materials-intensive process. Even if physical laws could be broken (they cannot) to achieve recycling with 100 percent efficiency, added demand from the imperative for economic growth would necessarily require virgin materials. The key point is that efficiency is limited by physics, but there is no sufficiency limit on the socioeconomic construct of “demand.”

Unfortunately, the situation is even more dire. Economic growth is required to be exponential; that is, the size of the economy must double in a fixed period. As referenced earlier, this has driven a corresponding increase in the material footprint. To understand the nature of exponential growth, consider the EV. Suppose that we have enough (easily extractable) lithium for the batteries needed to fuel the EV revolution for another 30 years. Now assume that deep-sea mining provides four times the current amount of these materials. Are we covered for 120 years? No, because the current 10 percent rate of growth in demand for lithium is equivalent to doubling of demand every seven years, which means we would only have enough for 44 years. In effect, we would cause untold, perhaps irreversible, devastation of marine ecosystems to buy ourselves a few extra years’ supply of raw materials.

Exponential growth swiftly, inevitably, swamps anything in finite supply. For a virus, that finite resource is the human population and in the context of the planet it is its physical resources.



The inescapable inference is that it is essentially impossible to decouple material use from economic growth. And this is exactly what has transpired. Wiedmann et al., 2015 did a careful accounting of the material footprint, including those embedded in international trade, for several nations. In the 1990–2008 period covered by the study, no country achieved a planned, deliberate economywide decoupling for a sustained length of time. Claims by the Global North to the contrary conceal the substantial offshoring of its production, and the associated ecological devastation, to the Global South.

Recent proposals for ecocidal deep-sea and fantastical exoplanetary mining are an unsurprising consequence of a growth paradigm that refuses to recognize these inconvenient truths.

WHAT IS SUSTAINABILITY?

These observations lead us to a natural minimum condition for sustainability: all resource use curves must be simultaneously flatlined and all pollution curves simultaneously extinguished. It is this resource perspective that allows us to see why EVs may help offset carbon emissions yet remain utterly unsustainable under the limitless growth paradigm.
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Sustainability from a resource perspective: Exponentially rising resource use and pollution (a and b) are unsustainable. We define sustainability as flatlined resource use (c) and extinguished pollution (d). Credit: Aditi Deshpande

THE REAL QUESTION

We have argued that the inextricable link between material consumption and GDP makes the infinite-growth paradigm incompatible with sustaining ecological integrity. Thus, while EVs constitute a partial answer to the climate question, within the current paradigm they will only exacerbate the larger anthropogenic crises connected to unsustainable resource consumption.

The real question is this: how do we transition to alternative economic paradigms founded on the reconciliation of equitable human well-being with ecological integrity?

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:29 am
by R8Z
The answer is no* (but with a huge asterisk).

The universe is relatively infinite giving our human scale. Even the solar system is quite immense and will surely fulfill all our needs as a species. Earth is effectively untouched so far, we're literally (and here I mean literally literally) skimming the surface of the planet, with much more yet to come for further growth. Hell, in the far future we could even dismantle the entire planet if we feel like at some stage.

Our limit to growth is only actually cheap energy. Giving infinite or near infinite energy, our growth would be monumental, soon interplanetary and then extrasolar in quick succession.

If the above isn't enough to calm the nerves, I still say to don't worry too much. European and North American economies are already sort of sabotaged from within and aren't going to continue growing any time soon anyway. Malthusian doomers are in office in most western countries so it's fine.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:47 pm
by Yuli Ban
As technology advances, we'll be come vastly more efficient with our use of resources. We could maintain our current quality of life while using a small fraction of what we use nowadays.

Limits of resource usage will also force change to our ways of life, but provided the right technological revolution occurs, that won't be a problem. I'm under no delusion that people won't seek maximum prosperity and quality of life if they can afford it, so a forceful retraction into a far more PHYSICALLY "sustainable" way of life is likely to bring about bloodshed as people, rather than living within their means, instead fight each other to get as much as they can at others' expense.

To me, the ideal outcome is instead offering virtual post-scarcity while reducing physical consumption.

For example: let's say I want to indulge myself as a horrific hedonist, a total mukbang dystopia in my own home. Full-dive VR also exists. Now I COULD dwell in a terrifying state of degeneration, engorging myself on tens of thousands of calories daily if I hated myself that much, leading to the extinction of some whole species for my own pleasure... but if I could be hooked up to FIVR and sustainable caloric intake while my brain is convinced I've gone mad with consumption in some other virtual world, the same ends are reached. But one is far less destructive than the other.

It admittedly sounds fairly inhuman, but if you're that desperate to bring about the days of "Every Man a King," better this method than literally pushing the Earth to its limits to sustain billions of kings/queens. Not that every person would choose this way, of course. But as long as it's available, the question of why someone would seek physical excess becomes more of a philosophical one. Maybe they don't want to be "fooled" into a utopian Matrix and view IRL decadence as not only a good thing but their birthright should they seek it. Or maybe they just hate advanced technology and think the older ways are better, while simultaneously believing that there are kings and there are paupers— and they should be a king.

Who knows, it's a very complicated subject that we'll have to answer soon as we push this planet towards ecological collapse.

On that same note: infinite growth is cancerous thinking (literally).

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am
by Tadasuke
We need infinite growth to further our virtual realities exponentially. As our expectations for virtual realities increase exponentially and the number of people also increases, we will need exponentially more computation. I personally believe in infinite growth, just like some Singularitarians, for example Ray Kurzweil. I just think that some of the timelines are too optimistic in their timing (like the Singularity happening as soon as 2045). We will at least need to create a humongous Matrioshka Brain around our Sun and possibly even something more far-fetching to satisfy our growing needs. We are now accustomed to exponential change and we won't easily accept it being over (at least that's the case with me). But for now, we should concentrate on making computers and other things (like cars or airplanes) more efficient. I think that degrowth people are cancer.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:00 am
by Tadasuke
Look: the more efficient computers get, the more energy they use (such a paradox). Graphics cards used to take 5 watts. Now 600 watts graphics cards are coming. Consoles used to take 5 watts, now they take 200 watts. Servers, data centers and supercomputers are becoming larger. That's why we are going to become Kardashev Type 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 and then 5 civilization. Another example: Intel 4004 in Q4 1971 used only 0.6 watts (!) and Q1 2023 i9-13900KS is going to use 300 watts (!), which is 500x (!) more. That is despite all the enormous efficiency gains.

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Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:42 pm
by Tadasuke
By the way, I was personally messaging to many cryptocurrency miners and mining gear sellers, explaining that what they were doing is wrong, evil and completely unnecessary and they all laughed at me 😔. I try to conserve energy and resources. This is for example what Christopher Barnatt advises. But sorry, Raspberry Pi is too slow for me. Crypto-mining is one of the things wasting energy. Because AI and scientific research on computers is needed. Gaming is bringing fun and happiness to people, so it's also needed. We just don't necessarily need 1 kilowatt PCs, we can limit them to use less energy like I do (undervolting). Buying a new PC can make sense, because a decade newer PCs have 10x better efficiency. I also conserved resources by waiting 11 years to buy a completely new PC, which would be sufficiently better in every way (if you buy lower-end stuff, you need to replace it more often).

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:27 pm
by BaobabScion
Tadasuke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am I think that degrowth people are cancer.
The fact that you don't see the irony in this statement is mind-boggling. Have you really let hope for Singularity TM become the center of your whole identity?

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:57 pm
by Tadasuke
BaobabScion wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:27 pm
Tadasuke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am I think that degrowth people are cancer.
The fact that you don't see the irony in this statement is mind-boggling. Have you really let hope for Singularity TM become the center of your whole identity?
I hate the idea of no exponential growth. Only exponential growth gives any reason to live, learn or do stuff. I subscribe to Julian Simon's statement that infinite (or at least far, far, far greater than today) growth is possible, achievable and will be done. I see no point in contemplating future of degrowth. That's a reason for suicide, not for reading, writing books or working.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:34 am
by R8Z
Tadasuke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:57 pm
BaobabScion wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:27 pm
Tadasuke wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am I think that degrowth people are cancer.
The fact that you don't see the irony in this statement is mind-boggling. Have you really let hope for Singularity TM become the center of your whole identity?
I hate the idea of no exponential growth. Only exponential growth gives any reason to live, learn or do stuff. I subscribe to Julian Simon's statement that infinite (or at least far, far, far greater than today) growth is possible, achievable and will be done. I see no point in contemplating future of degrowth. That's a reason for suicide, not for reading, writing books or working.
Only exponential growth gives any reason to live, learn or do stuff.

- Tadasuke
I really like that quote. Any futurist that wants to dismiss compounding growth isn't really a futurist or is on a conflicting mindset. You can't have an insanely developed future without exponential growth.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:53 pm
by MythOfProgress
wasn't gonna respond since i'm on a bit of a hiatus, but reflecting upon some of the comments- suppose there's a few points to make.
The universe is relatively infinite giving our human scale. Even the solar system is quite immense and will surely fulfill all our needs as a species.
it doesn't really matter about how "large" or "grand" the universe is if we don't have any adequate ways of traveling amongst the stars, SpaceX doesn't really count considering their goals are flawed(i.e elon muskrat setting unrealistic timelines, making wild claims with no factual evidence to back them up) and frankly their tests in the starbase launch site in boca chica(which they've never gotten an actual permit for building by the FAA)i is constantly destroying the habitat as a result of all the space launches they've committed themselves to performing.

moving back onto your original point, unless there's actual avenues of reliable energy and materials (like oil, coal or natural gas) to be found, i'll probably change my tune considering how the government gets whenever there's a new source of oil to be had-even then there's a pretty good chance fighting over it is going to be involved as we get pushed to our limits.
Earth is effectively untouched so far, we're literally (and here I mean literally literally) skimming the surface of the planet,
ummmm no, in case you haven't noticed- we've already bypassed the 420 ppm mark for CO2 levels, the originally safe(or safer in comparison) option being 350 ppm, our ability to procure materials and food is going to be extremely limited in an environment that is constantly beset with extreme weather events, supply chains being disrupted if not destroyed, and food production becoming limited as every country with major food production system under-perform.
Our limit to growth is only actually cheap energy. Giving infinite or near infinite energy, our growth would be monumental, soon interplanetary and then extrasolar in quick succession.
our limits to growth besides the cheap and easily accessible oil we've wasted, also involve the aforementioned food production process, industrialization by way of certain materials and minerals as reserves lower, population growth exceeding current resources, and consumption of those nonrenewable resources. moving aside those points, renewable, geothermal or hydroelectric energy isn't really infinite so something tells me you're probably placing your bets on nuclear.

while it would be a great way of generating energy, the fact is we have don't have nearly enough uranium in the world to commit to this, or enough time as these power plants take an inordinate amount of time to commission- even if we've figured out the secret to nuclear energy without any of these challenges in a certain amount of time, there's a chance we'd still collapse(perhaps even more quickly than at the rate we are now) due to our "infinite" energy outstripping materials needed and that increases in energy gains or efficiency or almost always followed with higher energy demand. this would not bode well for us in the long-term.
Malthusian doomers are in office in most western countries so it's fine.
lol, i appreciate your transparent attempt at making us a credible threat to the status quo but the truth is we don't have that much power in the face of the establishment- if this were the case then i'm pretty sure our response to climate change if not most environmental woes that plague us would be a lot different than what we're experiencing which is mostly massive forms of denial, apathy, ignorance, gaslighting or just a general inability to confront the reality that we're facing, which is an existential crisis coming to uproot most forms of life.

if you want to fix your reality, you have to live in it- this isn't the case with the "mathusian doomers" in office you've mentioned-so much as it is the corncuopian optimists telling people what they want to hear- which is that everything is fine, we still have time to change, we can still have a good life, the future is always better than the past, never give up.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:54 pm
by MythOfProgress
We need infinite growth to further our virtual realities exponentially.
says who? i don't recall this being a life-saving technology so much as it is a pathway for escapism as its finest. not that there's anything wrong with escapism, but if you're telling me this comes first in lieu of actually helping someone out you really need to check your priorities.
As our expectations for virtual realities increase exponentially and the number of people also increases, we will need exponentially more computation. I personally believe in infinite growth, just like some Singularitarians, for example Ray Kurzweil. I just think that some of the timelines are too optimistic in their timing (like the Singularity happening as soon as 2045). We will at least need to create a humongous Matrioshka Brain around our Sun and possibly even something more far-fetching to satisfy our growing needs. We are now accustomed to exponential change and we won't easily accept it being over (at least that's the case with me). But for now, we should concentrate on making computers and other things (like cars or airplanes) more efficient.
like i said, you need to re-prioritize and check your values, because these are extremely speculative concepts that don't have much basis in the real-world and you're settling for the longtermism outlook(which is helping out the hypothetical future humans and waiting for advanced technology, as opposed to say helping out the people that actually exist in the here and now). feel free to drop any scholarly articles that indicate these ideas are plausible, if not logistically possible, otherwise i'll just stick with reality.
I think that degrowth people are cancer.
please elaborate, i don't recall advocating for continuous growth even to the detriment of our environment(which seems to be the case for your ideology, as it concerns itself with spreading it's metaphorical seed everywhere in the effort of expansion and colonizing, not unlike a tumor or cancerous growth).
ook: the more efficient computers get, the more energy they use (such a paradox).
yes, it's called Jevon's Paradox, i've mentioned this a few times before and this isn't the good thing you think it is, any efficiency gains as you mentioned later on in the paragraph are met with a higher demand, which negates the reductions in resource use. thereby, leading to faster depletion of resources on account of increased efficiency gains. it doesn't take a genius to see where this would lead to.
I hate the idea of no exponential growth. Only exponential growth gives any reason to live, learn or do stuff. I subscribe to Julian Simon's statement that infinite (or at least far, far, far greater than today) growth is possible, achievable and will be done. I see no point in contemplating future of degrowth. That's a reason for suicide, not for reading, writing books or working.
believe it or not, videogames, watching pornography, tv shows/movies or in general electronic entertainment aren't required for a good life- sure that's what most people are accustomed to nowadays, but these are avenues of escape(again, not gonna barrage you with how these are bad things, there's nothing wrong with them in particular and im not gonna begrudge folks of enjoying it, we all escape in someway- that being said opting for total escapism and burying your head in the metaphorical sand of comfort is not gonna help anyone, even yourself)- degrowth teaches us to live with less and devote time to things people actually need, like food, water, oxygen, companionship and our environment, as opposed to engaging continuously in consumerist practices and media that only serve to give wealth to our corporate overlords. that said, my statements are all sanitized and i'm probably being too optimistic in assuming this is a choice we can make, as opposed to being an eventuality we'll experience.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:22 pm
by Tadasuke
Our role is to expand in every dimension, every space, including virtual. To discover, conceive, invent, design, create, build, establish, produce, compose, organize and imagine. Just keep in mind that only in the virtual, you are actually completely boundless and unconfined.
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And there wouldn't be Enlightenment without Christianity (doesn't mean it's necessary forever).

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:40 pm
by caltrek
Tadasuke wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:22 pm ...
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That is just one possible translation:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and every living thing that moveth on the earth.
There is a big difference between "filling" and "replenishing." "Dominion" can also have a greater implication of responsibility and stewardship.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:20 pm
by caltrek
Then there is the passage that immediately follows:
God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food; and to all animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food," And so it happened. God looked at everything he made, and he found it very good. Evening came and morning followed - the sixth day."

Chapter 2

Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed. Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken.


This also suggests limits, why would God otherwise decide to rest?

It also suggests content with the nature that had been created, and a desire for humans to exercise good stewardship over what had been created. Not a desire to see humans "fill" and replace what had been created with something radically different.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:53 pm
by Tadasuke
I will go by my preferable translations. I find the idea that God created this Universe for us to have infinite fun in it appealing and reasonable. In order to achieve that we just need to make machine learning empower us, instead of overpower us. If we were supposed to be in the Garden of Eden, we would still be there. There an open Universe of infinite possibilities around us and we are not making a use of it (but making progress). I don't believe in aliens. I believe we are alone in the entire Universe and that it is for us, not for someone else. It doesn't mean "kill all animals", but we are certainly the most important ones. We can be more ethical than animals and we will be. By 2050, all meat and other animal-derived products are going to be created artificially. Animals will be either in the wild, in zoos (in better conditions than now) or kept as pets (also in better conditions than now). By 2050, animal suffering caused by humans will end. It's just simple economics. When smartphones became profitable (circa 2011), I noticed them turning up everywhere around me (except for that one friend and some old people). When photovoltaic panels became profitable (circa 2019), I noticed them popping up everywhere around (including my family). And soon that will happen to electric cars (look at Norway for example). Artificial leather will be better in every way than animal leather, etc. Steven Pinker in his book "Enlightenment Now" shows how the Enlightenment worked and is still happening around the world and that's why the world has been becoming better and better since the 18th century. The media wants you to be angry or afraid, that's how the get their views. I refuse to succumb to their nasty strategy. I see the world as it is - horrible, but getting better every year. People in 2072 will look at 2022 like we today look at 1822 - that's how primitive we will seem.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:40 am
by MythOfProgress
Tadasuke wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:22 pm Our role is to expand in every dimension, every space, including virtual. To discover, conceive, invent, design, create, build, establish, produce, compose, organize and imagine. Just keep in mind that only in the virtual, you are actually completely boundless and unconfined.
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And there wouldn't be Enlightenment without Christianity (doesn't mean it's necessary forever).
this doesn't have anything to do with the original topic(at least in terms of the technical knowledge, this is just more or less in the realm of philosophy), but im not entirely surprised elements of christian ideology pervade your thought space when it comes to transhumanism, after all they are similar doctrines that are human-centric and place emphasis on expansion, conquering and dominating the environment, oftentimes with a lack of regard for other life as we've accustomed to nowadays.

that said, christianity does like to take credit when the going is good, as in at numerous points throughout history opposition to the sciences has always been an integral part of its past, i won't deny it played its part in the evolutionary nature of science when it comes to a few of the notable thinkers, scientists and philosophers but i'll have to ask you the weird question, at what point throughout history was it safe to be an apostate?

because it's pretty clear to me if you went against the word of God, the Bible or any of the sacred texts- you'd be putting yourself in danger, being excommunicated, shunned by others or worse burned at the stake- most folks aren't going to reveal their belief systems(or lack of one) when doing so puts them at risk. this is leaving aside the fact that 16th century scientists lived centuries prior to the scientific theory of evolution's prominence, which meant they definitely didn't have much of a framework in terms of naturalistic explanations for how human beings came to exist.

that said, i'm not gonna say in particular these men were atheists, so much as it is they didn't much of a choice in terms of their outward belief, because between the peasent uprisings occuring in the lower class of society and the catholic church carefully scrutinizing their texts and studies, these aristocrats often tip-toed the line between getting thrown to the wolves so folks could eat the rich or get burned at the stake for expressing views that were contradictory to the catholic church.

keep in mind the catholic church controlled(or at the very least tried their damnedest to control) the printing press which meant they decided which kind of information arose and destroyed anything that went counter to their views. it was only 4 centuries later that the catholic church would eventually admit wrongdoing in killing and oppressing it's scientists(such as Giordano Bruno, Galileo Galieli or Nicolas Copernicus)

the notion that western civilization has "thrived" because of "christian values" to me is quite frankly being ignorant of the actual history behind the enlightenment, which is to say we've thrived in spite of it(christian values), not because of it. the video you posted ignores(or rather misinteprets) the dawn of Enlightenment occurring in christian europe as a sign that christians were responsible for "progress", completely ignoring the fact that we had travelers going in & out and visiting other countries, cultures and nations at the time- to which they'd bring back their knowledge with them and share it with us, the explosion of knowledge and intellectual inquiry didn't just happen because folks were twiddling with their thumbs and investing themselves in the spiritual world.

knowledge by the ancient Greeks was lost and suppressed by christian authoritarianism for good amount of time before resurfacing sometime during the 13th century, then the renaissance would occur in the 14th century- when people would start(or rather once again like the Greeks and Romans before them) looking outwards towards the natural world(the world that we live in) for a reference as opposed to looking inwards for the spiritual world(a false or make-believe one if you will).

with the advent of the printing press in the 15th century which meant an easier time for reading, writing and distributing sources of information this meant proto-scientists(for lack of a better word that is escaping me at this current moment) and intellectuals could share information and build upon each other's work(early forms of peer reviewed work would start here), accelerating the very progress and its ideals that you hold near and dear to your heart.

i'm not a fan of how some christian folk are attempting to rewrite the history of their religion, it's your religion-own the shit you've done and move on- trying to sanitize the atrocities and barbaric practices committed in the past by earlier Christians just comes across as intellectually dishonest and is a poor attempt at framing yourselves as our superior counterparts.

moving onto the video's point about the soviet union's supposed atheists, he's definitely referring to the communist practices(or rather state-capitalist practices) of the Soviet Union, again he makes a fallacious statement as correlation is not causation, Joesph Stalin was a member of the Russian Orthodox Church, there are plenty of records of him seeking counsel and discussing God in his inner circle.

this is an incredibly oversimplified if not somewhat reductive explanation(mostly for the sake of brevity), but i will challenge the thought that christanity is responsible for the progress we've witnessed throughout the centuries, you can lie to yourself and keep going around in circles and circles about things that don't have any bearings on our natural world(like virtual realities which is looking inwards) or you can take a step off the roller-coaster and look at this for what it is, this is the only world we have- wasting it on petty delusions of grandeur isn't gonna help anyone but ourselves- eventually even this will come back to bite us in the ass.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:21 pm
by Tadasuke
The thing is, that my belief system is caused by what I require to have an incentive to get up in the morning and do stuff during the day. Otherwise, I would have no motivation to live. Perhaps your belief system would just make me kill myself. Exponential progress or nothing. I love Ray Kurzweil's ideas and I fully agree with him. I just think that his timeline is too optimistic (as evident by what happened during the last 20 years), but the goals and results will be the same, whether in 30 years or 100 years.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:13 pm
by MythOfProgress
Tadasuke wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:21 pm The thing is, that my belief system is caused by what I require to have an incentive to get up in the morning and do stuff during the day. Otherwise, I would have no motivation to live. Perhaps your belief system would just make me kill myself. Exponential progress or nothing. I love Ray Kurzweil's ideas and I fully agree with him. I just think that his timeline is too optimistic (as evident by what happened during the last 20 years), but the goals and results will be the same, whether in 30 years or 100 years.
again, i'm not trying to take your beliefs away from you, that doesn't mean you settle for outright falsehoods and perpetuate them despite the erroneous consequences and maladaptive frameworks they pose.

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:01 pm
by Tadasuke
MythOfProgress wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:13 pm
Tadasuke wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:21 pm The thing is, that my belief system is caused by what I require to have an incentive to get up in the morning and do stuff during the day. Otherwise, I would have no motivation to live. Perhaps your belief system would just make me kill myself. Exponential progress or nothing. I love Ray Kurzweil's ideas and I fully agree with him. I just think that his timeline is too optimistic (as evident by what happened during the last 20 years), but the goals and results will be the same, whether in 30 years or 100 years.
again, i'm not trying to take your beliefs away from you, that doesn't mean you settle for outright falsehoods and perpetuate them despite the erroneous consequences and maladaptive frameworks they pose.
You see, I think that I am fairly reasonable and you are insane and wrong. I'm not settling for any falsehoods.

The wealthier people are, the more they care about the environment, I see that even in my neighborhood. Poor people don't care at all. You think that for example a poor country would ever install filters everywhere and carbon capturing devices? No, they would spew as much pollutants as they need to, just like the so called "developed countries" used to do. Look at the wealthiest countries and observe that in the 21st century their pollution has been going down each year. The real evil are marxist environmentalist, because they clearly want the world to become worse with their beliefs.
Watch this:

Re: Infinite Growth, is it possible?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:04 pm
by MythOfProgress
You see, I think that I am fairly reasonable and you are insane and wrong. I'm not settling for any falsehoods.
i mean you did say in your previous post your worldview is influenced by your belief system, and that it gives you an incentive to "live", so i'd argue you're mostly coming from a place of faith as opposed to "reasoning" like you keep mentioning; and that belief in belief(the benefits of believing) doesn't necessarily cancel out the concept of people killing and committing violent/barbaric/hostile acts in the name of their doctrines.
The wealthier people are, the more they care about the environment, I see that even in my neighborhood.
unsure if there's a good source for this, but assuming you're right there's a lot of missing context to this statement, as it's ignoring the notion that most folks in poverty are mostly going to care about their immediate surroundings and socioeconomic situation- they're not gonna be busy worrying about long-term situations like the climate collapsing when they can barely afford food, water or shelter(or a combination of all these things and more).

another problematic sentiment i'm seeing in this statement is that you're trying to place blame on developing countries/poor folk as if they're responsible for the majority of emissions these past few decades, you can search it up for yourself(or not) and see that developed countries are responsible for a significant portion of global emissions generated.

any of the measures taken to assist in de-carbonizing and being more sustainable by developed countries is almost equivalent to putting a band-aid on a broken arm or large wound- we've already done the damage and trying to be more environmentally-friendly is more often then not wrought with green-washed projects and technology that hurts the environment more than it helps.
Poor people don't care at all. You think that for example a poor country would ever install filters everywhere and carbon capturing devices?
well thanks for unveiling your casual dislike of poor folks, i'm not surprised someone such as yourself would leap to playing the blame game as opposed to recognizing that we're all apart of the problem(some more so than others of course)- carbon capture technology is an ineffectual attempt at recreating something that trees do on a daily basis- requiring massive amounts of energy and shutting down constantly without much in the way of actually absorbing carbon in the atmosphere considering the scale it works at.
The real evil are marxist environmentalist, because they clearly want the world to become worse with their beliefs.
hmm, if you're using the buzzword(marxist) in the way i think you are, then chances are my attempts to reason with you are mostly futile at this point. i'm not gonna engage with someone who's got preconceived notions and is fully invested in conspiracy theories, cheers.