Ukraine War Watch Thread

[weatheriscool]

Swedish defence minister calls Russian violation of airspace 'unacceptable'
Source: CTV News/Reuters

STOCKHOLM -- Four Russian fighter jets briefly entered Swedish territory over the Baltic Sea on Wednesday, the Swedish Armed Forces said, sparking a swift condemnation from Sweden's defence minister.

Two Russian SU27 and two SU24 fighter jets briefly entered Swedish airspace east of the Swedish island of Gotland in the Baltic Sea, Sweden's Armed Forces said in a statement, adding that Swedish JAS 39 Gripen jets were sent to document the violation.

"The Russian violation of Swedish airspace is of course completely unacceptable," Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist told news agency TT. "It will lead to a firm diplomatic response from Sweden. Swedish sovereignty and territory must always be respected."

Read more: https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/swedish-de ... -1.5802868

[Xyls]

India now calling out some of Russia's bullshit

New Delhi rejects Russia's allegation against Ukraine, says no Indian in Kharkiv taken hostage by Ukrainian Army

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/n ... 87382.html

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government in New Delhi has dismissed Moscow’s allegation that the Ukrainian Army had forcibly stopped some Indians from leaving Kharkiv in the East European nation and took them hostage to be used as human shields to resist the advancing Russian Army.

----

It really is getting bad that even generally neutrally aligned and other BRIC members are now viewing Russia as inherently dishonest and untrustworthy...

China isn't being quite so overt. But they are definitely signalling to Putin it's time to come back to reality...

As Russia’s isolation grows, China hints at limits of friendship

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/ ... friendship

As Russia’s economy gets hammered by sanctions, China has emerged as the key player with the potential to lessen its partner’s economic pain.

But amid Moscow’s deepening international isolation, there are growing signs that Beijing’s willingness to throw its strategic partner an economic lifeline may only go so far.

Even as Beijing has refused to term Russian President Vladimir Putin’s assault on Ukraine an “invasion” and condemned Western-led sanctions, Chinese state-owned financial institutions have been quietly distancing themselves from Russia’s beleaguered economy.

[Doozer]

How likely is it that Russia will further break up into smaller states if they loose this war?

[Yuli Ban]

How likely is it that Russia will further break up into smaller states if they loose this war?

Virtually no chance. Assuming Russia loses, the most that could happen is United Russia being ousted and replaced by either a pro-Western, Communist, or ultranationalist party.

[erowind]

.

[Tadasuke]

Perhaps ordinary Russians need to suffer a bit (economically), so that they get angry at their leadership, overthrow them and establish a true democracy. In that way, the world will become a better place. I'm looking forward to positive changes!

[wjfox]

Honest question to the European members of this forum: do you have a nuclear shelter ready (your own or nearby) in case an emergency comes to play? Some houses I went to in Germany had their own underground bunkers in basements "just in case" but I felt that it was mostly old houses and newer ones didn't even have basements.

I live in London. Even a tiny studio here is like £1,000 ($1,350)/month. A basement shelter would probably double that.

In any case, I think I'd rather be obliterated in any nuclear attack. I recommend the 1984 documentary Threads, to see what life would be like for anyone surviving such an event. It's honestly the scariest film I've ever seen.

[Tadasuke]

Rich, influential Russians need to suffer economically more, so that they kick Putin out of his job. They need to be shown what happens if Russia attacks other countries. Their yachts in foreign ports should be seized. Their foreign bank deposits should be seized. They will get furious at Putin, so that he or someone like him won't have a place in Russian government.

[Tadasuke]

And let's be honest here: if someone has enough money to buy a huge yacht, they must be a bad person, because they don't use their money to help those in need. So I don't feel any remorse of taking such things from them.

[Maximus]

Rich, influential Russians need to suffer economically more, so that they kick Putin out of his job. They need to be shown what happens if Russia attacks other countries. Their yachts in foreign ports should be seized. Their foreign bank deposits should be seized. They will get furious at Putin, so that he or someone like him won't have a place in Russian government.

I think people are too optimistic, and thus they misunderstand power. I do not believe for one second these oligarchs have any ability to take away Putin's power; no, it's quite the other way around. There's economic influence, and then there's pure unbridled, unlimited political power. The latter always trumps the former, especially in a dictatorship like Russia. If push came to shove, Putin could order any number of loyal spies, secret police, or soldiers to take these billionaires out to a grass field and have them shot. Putin is Russia right now, no one has any ability to "get rid" of him through political means. This is not a democracy, you won't see him get impeached or resign over protests. There is one way, and one way only, for him to go; a coup by some group inside the Russian military, security services, and/or government. Power such as his can only be defeated through violence, not diplomacy and economic sanctions. If these sanctions, together with the backlash Russia is facing around the world, lead to such a group acting, then we may be hopeful he will be removed.

[wjfox]

[wjfox]

I think some of you underestimate the impact these sanctions will have.

This is a good read.

Source

[R8Z]

I think some of you underestimate the impact these sanctions will have.

This is a good read.

Source

Love the last phrase. USSR enthusiasts will get to enjoy full blown goverment power once more! Exciting!

[erowind]

.

[wjfox]

I don't think the Russian people deserve a 2nd round of "shock capitalism."

I feel so much empathy for what they've gone through this past century. First the Tsar, then the Bolsheviks, then WWII, then a few decades of stability and woops here comes neoliberalism and endless austerity as everything gets gutted. Now people who haven't read the history, who haven't lived the experience, who have rampantly consumed the media produced for them are advocating a 5th round of hell for the Russian people. And it is the people that will suffer predominately, not the oligarchs.

Has anyone ever noticed how stable some of the countries under US sanctions are? How nationalism can be ignited by the presence of an enemy inflicting genuine harm on a country? Where have US sanctions worked to end the reign of autocrats? The DPRK still exists and it's been nearly 70 years. Cuba chugs along despite the blockade. Iran has remained relatively stable through decades of rhetoric to the contrary. Support for Gaddafi in Libya only waned after the sanctions were lifted. How will Russia be any different? How are people so sure, so eager, at the idea of inflicting more pain on working people? What monsters will be created by that course of action? Nomatter how things started how does more aggression not make the situation that much worse? Is it not an acute form of madness?



And to the Russians in the room, or any caught up in that governments own rhetoric, isn't there another course? What other solutions to NATO's aggression might exist outside the realm of war?



/\ This is directed at both sides. I have seen nationalism on display rearing its ugly despicable head in many of the posts in this thread. I implore everyone to look at themselves in the mirror and really think about what things have been said, what empathy has been granted selectively, what the consequences of further escalation are.

Aww, the poor Russian invaders. Yeah... it's clearly the fault of those nasty, oppressive NATO members. That Putin seems like a nice man. We should just let Russia take over and own an entire sovereign nation, without any consequences, because that's a totally normal thing to do in the 21st century.

[Tadasuke]

I think that someone needs to assassinate him. Either an inside group from Russia or an outside group from other country. I hope it is already being discussed.

[Ozzie guy]

I feel it worth pointing out people in westernized countries really cares when US or pro US countries go to war.

The US alone is at war almost every year and no one really gives a dam.

The response to Russia invading Ukraine is many times stronger than even what was seen in the Vietnam war which had many people pushing pro war narratives.

I am saying this is someone who supports the Ukrainian people against Russian Imperialism.

[caltrek]

Aww, the poor Russian invaders.

I think that a difference should be noted between those who support the invasion, and those that do not. Those that do not are really victims, almost as much as the Ukrainians.

That Putin seems like a nice man. We should just let Russia take over and own an entire sovereign nation, without any consequences, because that's a totally normal thing to do in the 21st century.

Yes, that is the conundrum. Ignore his continued aggressions and what will stop him from marching troops all the way to the Atlantic?

Impose sanctions and we create further immiseration for the guilty as well as for the relatively innocent.

I haven't given up on nonviolent noncooperation, but such methods will take decades and not months. Such methods will also involve immiseration, perhaps even death, for those labeled "terrorists" simply because they refuse to cooperate.

So, I am running out of answers. The (some would say) greatest generation to which my father belonged has yielded to a generation that has produced kleptocratic tyrants and greedy financial elites bent on imposing capitalism at any cost. A generation which has seen a resurgence of racism, nationalism, and a reaction to the progress in rights for the LGBT+ community.

Rodney King had the right question: "Why can't we just all get along?"

Sadly, we have all collectively failed to come up with a satisfactory explanation, except to blame all of the others with whom which we can't seem to get along. This is the world my generation is leaving to the rest of you. My sincere apologies.

[caltrek]

I feel it worth pointing out people in westernized countries really cares when US or pro US countries go to war.

The US alone is at war almost every year and no one really gives a dam.

There are all sorts of peace groups active in the United States that do give a dam(n). Unfortunately, as in Russia, they are not in control of government policy.

[caltrek]

Russia Bombing Expands, Troops Close in on Ukrainian Cities
March 2, 2022

(Courthouse News) — Russia on Wednesday stepped up its attack on Ukraine with catastrophic bombing of cities, causing more civilian deaths, while it slowly moved a massive convoy of weaponry closer to the capital Kyiv in preparation for a bloody assault on a heavily guarded city of 3 million people.
…
Kherson (reportedly seized by Russia) lies at the mouth of the Dnieper River on the Black Sea and close to Crimea, a peninsula Russia annexed in 2014 during the chaotic months of the “Maidan Revolution,” events that led to an eight-year simmering conflict between Ukrainian forces and an armed rebellion by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine claiming to be independent. Inability to resolve that conflict is partly to blame for Russian President Vladimir Putin's brutal invasion.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Wednesday urged his people to resist the invaders. He has declared martial law in the country, ordered all males between the ages of 18 and 60 to fight and stopped them from leaving the country. Ukrainians are being told to attack Russian troops with Molotov cocktails, guns and any other means and it appears many are heeding the call to resist.
…
Mariupol is a port city on the Sea of Azov and within a region claimed by Russian rebels in Donetsk, one of two self-declared republics recognized by Putin at the start of the invasion last week. Information has been limited from Mariupol, but it is believed that some of Ukraine’s most fierce fighters, among them hardcore volunteer militia groups, have tried to hold the city against Russian troops.
…
Mariupol sits between lands occupied by pro-Russian Ukrainian forces in Donetsk and the annexed peninsula of Crimea, making it a must-win city in Russia’s plans to carve out a new state in eastern Ukraine dominated by ethnic Russians. Following the Maidan Revolution in 2014, pro-Russian separatists in Donbas declared they wanted to reconstitute Novorossiya, as the eastern territory of Ukraine was known during the Russian empire. Since the end of the Soviet Union, the large population of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine has clamored for more autonomy.

caltrek's comment: On the whole, a well written article. Still, I would have written the last sentence as follows:

Since the end of the Soviet Union, many ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine have clamored for more autonomy.