As you wish. Let's just delay this debate for, say, one year, till 8 march 2023. By then, things will become much clearer.
To clarify: there will surely be some difficulties in Russia. But their general outcome in the middle and long term (5-10-20 years from now) will be rather positive than negative. This is, of course, far from guarantied, but chances are very good. By that time, perhaps, you'll read some more or less unbiased historical book to get a better idea what and why really happened in Ukraine in 2022.
Russians destroy central hospital in Izyum, Kharkiv Oblast.Russians destroy central hospital in Izyum, Kharkiv Oblast.https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/03/8/7329471/According to Matsokin: "I thought the gates of hell had closed, but it turned out we were only in the first circle. This [in the video] is the reception area of our central city hospital. Maybe [the Russian troops thought that it was] another secret NATO base. Patients tried to crawl from under the rubble as best they could.
Background:
On the night of 3 March, Russian occupying forces struck at the civilian population of Izyum, killing at least 8 people, 2 of them children.
The Russian occupiers continue to bomb Izyum heavily with aircraft and missiles.
On 4 March, it became known that part of Izyum was left without gas supply due to the occupiers’ military operations.
“Unbiased” as in approved by Russian government sources perhaps. There is little point in relying on the unfolding of history to demonstrate who is right if history itself cannot be agreed upon. If we cannot agree on Holodomor (see links below), or the extent to which the Soviet government was responsible for Chernobyl (see link below), then what hope is there that we will agree on current events. Short of a collapse of the current government in Russia, similar to the collapse of the Soviet Union, there is likely to be a writing of history to suit the historical narrative of Putin and his successors. Already, we see a cocoon of denial being spun in which to encase the Russian consciousness. So it has already started.Certain Russian user wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:54 pmTo clarify: there will surely be some difficulties in Russia. But their general outcome in the middle and long term (5-10-20 years from now) will be rather positive than negative. This is, of course, far from guarantied, but chances are very good. By that time, perhaps, you'll read some more or less unbiased historical book to get a better idea what and why really happened in Ukraine in 2022.
I don't think so. Any attacks from this joke of an army on the Baltic states will be crushed.A broader world order is at stake; so too is a narrower European order. Putin has made no secret of his bitter opposition to NATO and to the independence of former Soviet republics, and it should be expected that after reducing Ukraine, he would attempt something of a similar nature (if with less intensity) in the Baltic states.
It could deter Putin from invading that the Russian forces will likely suffer heavy losses, and the US would be able to study the Russian weaknesses.
It doesn't seem like a smart move to invade.
This R8Z guy is from Brasil if my memory serves. I highly doubt he will find anything "approved by Russian government" in his nearby bookstore. Fortunately, this is not necessary. Something not following the current propagandist hysteria would be more than enough.
(The Guardian) A Russian general has been killed in fighting around Kharkiv, Ukrainian intelligence has claimed, which would make him the second general the Russian army has lost in Ukraine in a week.
The intelligence arm of the Ukrainian defence ministry said Maj Gen Vitaly Gerasimov, chief of staff of the 41st Army, had been killed outside the eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, along with other senior officers.
The ministry also broadcast what it claimed was a conversation between two Russian FSB officers discussing the death and complaining that their secure communications were no longer functioning inside Ukraine.
The investigative journalism agency Bellingcat said it had confirmed Gerasimov’s death with a Russian source. Its executive director, Christo Grozev, said they had also identified the senior FSB officer in the intercepted conversation.
Gerasimov took part in the second Chechen war, the Russian military operation in Syria, and the annexation of Crimea, winning medals from those campaigns.
All of the sources I have seen or heard acknowledge that Russia is making advances. Those that are most critical of Russian success argue that the speed of those advances are slower than what Putin expected and that the resistance has been successful at slowing down the progress of Russian forces and forcing them to pay a cost. Many in this forum have also acknowledged Russia's overall advantage.joe00uk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:54 pm It seems that the more land Russian forces take and the closer they come to encircling more cities, the more shrill the insistence is that they're hopelessly incompetent and will be beaten any day now. Strange.
In any event, it looks like the British and Americans have gone kamikaze with our economies now with these Russian oil bans. And as usual, the wealthy are perfectly happy to tell everyone else to "pay the price for freedom". If they're so passionate about Ukrainian freedom, perhaps they can pay the price themselves for the massive inflation everyone else is suffering.
I am as unbiased as it can be in this war and I can say I am loving the propaganda and its quick dismantle one or two days later. Both sides guilty so far. Finding russian propaganda is a little hard for me but if one tries to browse/search for different perspectives it's clear as day as well in other platforms. Russians are certainly consuming it on their local platforms as westerns are taking-in their daily-portions too!Certain Russian user wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:08 pmThis R8Z guy is from Brasil if my memory serves. I highly doubt he will find anything "approved by Russian government" in his nearby bookstore. Fortunately, this is not necessary. Something not following the current propagandist hysteria would be more than enough.
As for the majority of this forum, those from USA/Canada/EU, I have long lost any illusions and have nothing to say, be it right now or few years later.
Read more: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/statem ... to-ukraine
Statement of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland in connection with the statement by the US Secretary of State on providing airplanes to Ukraine
The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Goverment, are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America.
At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities. Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes.
The Polish Government also requests other NATO Allies – owners of MIG-29 jets – to act in the same vein.
Wouldn't doubt that these actions cause a global economic depression, actually.joe00uk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:54 pm It seems that the more land Russian forces take and the closer they come to encircling more cities, the more shrill the insistence is that they're hopelessly incompetent and will be beaten any day now. Strange.
In any event, it looks like the British and Americans have gone kamikaze with our economies now with these Russian oil bans. And as usual, the wealthy are perfectly happy to tell everyone else to "pay the price for freedom". If they're so passionate about Ukrainian freedom, perhaps they can pay the price themselves for the massive inflation everyone else is suffering.
But Ukraine is retaking some of their lost territory. See e.g. viewtopic.php?p=16035#p16035 and also the area northwest of Kyiv.
Russia is clearly a menace to the world – a terrorist state, run by an evil psychopath, and needs to be isolated. An oil ban is the right decisison.joe00uk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:54 pm In any event, it looks like the British and Americans have gone kamikaze with our economies now with these Russian oil bans. And as usual, the wealthy are perfectly happy to tell everyone else to "pay the price for freedom". If they're so passionate about Ukrainian freedom, perhaps they can pay the price themselves for the massive inflation everyone else is suffering.
Something else that's occurred to me is that with several Western countries either overtly or covertly encouraging veterans and others with any military experience to go and volunteer to fight in Ukraine, we'll potentially have brigades of thousands of embittered fighters (possibly radicalised ones if they happen to spend much time with the likes of the Azov Battalion) returning home to countries deep into severe recessions or depressions. So much for defending "freedom and democracy" in Europe. Europe's next wave of fascist regimes and military dictatorships will probably arrive several years earlier now than would have been the case otherwise, as will the next wider European war.
The tiny areas retaken by Ukrainian forces don't come close to making up for the much larger swathes of territory seized by Russian forces. Perhaps that will change, but I'll wait to see whether or not that actually ends up happening before I have any serious doubts about who's eventually going to win the war.wjfox wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:43 pm But Ukraine is retaking some of their lost territory. See e.g. viewtopic.php?p=16035#p16035 and also the area northwest of Kyiv.
Russia is clearly a menace to the world – a terrorist state, run by an evil psychopath, and needs to be isolated. An oil ban is the right decisison.
Well... I really didn't want to go there. I really didn't, because it might reflect a bit badly on myself. But now that you've brought it up, it has to be discussed.joe00uk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:48 pmSomething else that's occurred to me is that with several Western countries either overtly or covertly encouraging veterans and others with any military experience to go and volunteer to fight in Ukraine, we'll potentially have brigades of thousands of embittered fighters (possibly radicalised ones if they happen to spend much time with the likes of the Azov Battalion) returning home to countries deep into severe recessions or depressions. So much for defending "freedom and democracy" in Europe. Europe's next wave of fascist regimes and military dictatorships will probably arrive several years earlier now than would have been the case otherwise, as will the next wider European war.
Exactly. And especially so if Russia does indeed win this war and continues retaliatory sanctions against the West even after we offer to remove them. If Western powers have to accept a new status quo in which Ukraine is returned to the Russian sphere of influence, on top of the economic fallout, we'll have our very own Treaty of Versailles and maybe even a stab-in-the-back myth in which treacherous politicians at home are blamed for cowardice and weakness in the face of Russia and China. Of course, we've already had years of accusations like that against various politicians, but if you have fresh combat experience among thousands of well-organised fighting-age men in your country who have just come back home from fighting on the losing side of that war, well, things will probably get pretty grim.
